A different kind of HD Radio reception issue

[700WLW]

A different kind of HD Radio reception issue

http://www.hear2.com/2006/09/a_different_kin.html#comments

When radio ignores under-25's, under-25's go away

http://www.hear2.com/2006/09/when_radio_igno.html#comments

 

[IBOCRocks]

Heeeeee's baaaaaack...



(That's all I'll say about that!)

And as for Mark, he got whupped by "George". Note that Mark's reply was "commercial-free channels".

Gee, exactly what HD-2's are. Commercial free!

Mark seems to forget that it's not about solving a "consumer problem". It's about building a better mousetrap. CD's weren't a solution to anything...iPod's weren't a solution to anything. They are just better ways to listen to music.

Analog radio works well. HD Radio works well. You have a choice - you can listen to either one with the same radio. If you choose to buy an HD Radio, you get the best of both worlds. The push isn't to simply sell new radios today - the message is simply that if you're going to buy a new analog radio, check out HD.

In my opinion, Mark seems to be going down that slippery slope that started out by asking very good, but challenging questions down to now just being an anti-IBOC zealot. He started out with some excellent points, but is now simply believing his own press and taking every little nugget and turning it into a mountain. He appears to look at HD Radio the same way as the anti-IBOC zealots do - an "all or nothing" proposition. That's simply not the case.

 

[700WLW]

HD Radio does not give the consumer a reason to switch from analog to digital radio - consumers are not going to spend $300 on an HD radio, just to get more of the same repetitive terrestrial radio. The HD side-channels will eventually carry commercials (and talk of doing just that from Clear Channel), since the broadcast industry is down between 30% to %60 this year, and that J. P. Morgan determined that HD Radio will not generate new renenue. Consumers do not have a problem with the quality of analog, or their analog radios, and HD Radio certainly is no better, with its poor coverage/propagation, poor penetration into structures, and low-bitrate HD side-channels. And, no one cares enough about terrestrial radio, which makes all this a non-issue. Marks points were:

1) Analog terrestrial radio works, and that means consumers don't have a problem.
2) With no consumer problems with analog radio, HD Radio is trying to create a solution, where there is no problem.
3) HD Radio is trying to convince consumers there is a problem, but there are no consumer problems, so that effort will be pointless.
4) Consumers pay handsomely for iPods, because iPods solve terrestrial radio's problems - quality of programming and consumer choice/flexability.

With the poor sales figures for HD Radios, consumers have already made that choice - there are no problems. The HD Radio displays will just drive consumers, over to the Satellite Radio displays.

 

[autopaint-1]

BUT consumers will spend 400 dollars on an I-Pod which has marginal battery life and comes with poor soundinigb ear buds and no music of its own. Yep, you must be correct.

 

[zumahans]

BUT consumers will spend 400 dollars on an I-Pod which has marginal battery life and comes with poor soundinigb ear buds and no music of its own. Yep, you must be correct.

As a matter of fact, they will, and very happily.

Because they get to control the music!

The next logical question would be: could it be the great broadcasting monolith is in its death throes?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The ones with the problem are the large radio corporations. The problem is shrinking listenership - which they cannot understand. Their solution? Add interference to the dial.

The real problem is the lawyers control what the DJ's say, the DJ's are not local and the audience knows it, the copy-cat formats are outdated, the play lists are to small, and anybody creative with the guts to stand up against the corporations is fired.

Ok, lets all go out and solve radio's problems by buying HD radios.

 

[autopaint]

Other then DXers who is getting interference and please sight specific instances. I live in a very large metro area with wall to wall radio stations and I can still hear them all with no noise other than analogue static. C'mon, lets see what you have?

 

[zumahans]

Other then DXers who is getting interference and please sight specific instances. I live in a very large metro area with wall to wall radio stations and I can still hear them all with no noise other than analogue static. C'mon, lets see what you have?

When KNX 1070 runs IBOC daytimes, I lose XPRS 1090 in north San Diego County, and at my house in Malibu. XPRS is one of about 10 stations (AM or FM) that we reliably receive AT ALL along the Malibu coast, where terrain blocks local FM and only a few AMs make it thru the power lines, AC-DC transformers and all the other buzz.

XPRS carries the Padres, and since KFWB Los Angeles and KVEN Ventura crap out before I get home, this is my only terrestial source for PBP baseball.

Of course, with XM, I don't need to listen to stinkin' terrrestial radio, and I don't.

But you asked for interference and there it is. And no, XPRS is not a DX find.

 

[I.B. Iquity]

I really find this interesting. You have two 50 KW stations 20 Khz apart & XEPRS is directional. Yet you can not hear XEPRS, you say within its protected contour due to interference caused by KNX's IBOC exciter. I can't check this myself living here in NYC but I will say that we also have a 50 KW directional IBOC station, WOR at 710 Khz and amazingly I have no trouble listening to a 3200 watt station located in Ansonia Conneticut, while WOR has its exciter operating. How is this possible? Do the laws of physics differ when one travels 3,000 miles west? I can't say whether you have intereference of not, but using the closest example I can find in my region, those kind of problems don't exist here in NY. By the way I am about 25 miles from midtown Manhattan and about 65 miles from the Conneticut station.

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WADS&service=AM&status=L&hours=D


http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WOR&service=AM&status=C&hours=D


Apparently interference between US and Mexican stations is not unheard of.

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2004/02/17_mpp.html

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Other then DXers who is getting interference and please sight specific instances. I live in a very large metro area with wall to wall radio stations and I can still hear them all with no noise other than analogue static. C'mon, lets see what you have?

We all know that DX'ers are second class citizens, who should be marginalized and made fun of at every opportunity. And I am glad you enjoy wall to wall stations in the middle of a large metro area, no doubt you pay a lot to live in an expensive area. A lot of us are not so lucky, we have large houses in the near fringe suburbs away from the "advantages" of the inner city - and in those near fringe suburbs, some of which are 60 miles or more from towers, EVERYBODY is a DX'er whether they realize it or not. Whether its the casual act of turning a radio to get away from a null, or messing with rabbit ears - everybody is doing low level DX. These are the people included in your "80% of the country is urban" that will be affected by nighttime AM IBOC, and whose free radio service will likely be interrupted by it.

Bring on the interference - let's just do it - every AM station broadcasting IBOC day and night, all 11,000 or so of them, and see what happens!

 

[IBOCRocks]

Other then DXers who is getting interference and please sight specific instances. I live in a very large metro area with wall to wall radio stations and I can still hear them all with no noise other than analogue static. C'mon, lets see what you have?

We all know that DX'ers are second class citizens, who should be marginalized and made fun of at every opportunity. And I am glad you enjoy wall to wall stations in the middle of a large metro area, no doubt you pay a lot to live in an expensive area. A lot of us are not so lucky, we have large houses in the near fringe suburbs away from the "advantages" of the inner city - and in those near fringe suburbs, some of which are 60 miles or more from towers, EVERYBODY is a DX'er whether they realize it or not. Whether its the casual act of turning a radio to get away from a null, or messing with rabbit ears - everybody is doing low level DX. These are the people included in your "80% of the country is urban" that will be affected by nighttime AM IBOC, and whose free radio service will likely be interrupted by it.

Bring on the interference - let's just do it - every AM station broadcasting IBOC day and night, all 11,000 or so of them, and see what happens!

While I don't agree that DX'ers are second class citizens, I do think that some very vocal ones are simply against anything that isn't the status quo. AM IBOC has some issues, for sure, but I feel they use that do kill digital radio of any sort. Fighting AM IBOC I can understand...showing such hateful contempt to IBOC, iBiquity, the radio stations, and anyone who DARES to enjoy IBOC I don't understand.

 

[700WLW]

"Fighting AM IBOC I can understand...showing such hateful contempt to IBOC, iBiquity, the radio stations, and anyone who DARES to enjoy IBOC I don't understand."

Because iBiquity wrote their own rules, with setting the IBOC digital standard, and is hoping to benefit greatly from this flawed and fruadulent technology, and that IBOC is destroying the broadcast bands with adjacent-channel interference and poor signal penetration/coverage.

 

[IBOCRocks]

"Fighting AM IBOC I can understand...showing such hateful contempt to IBOC, iBiquity, the radio stations, and anyone who DARES to enjoy IBOC I don't understand."

Because iBiquity wrote their own rules, with setting the IBOC digital standard, and is hoping to benefit greatly from this flawed and fruadulent technology, and that IBOC is destroying the broadcast bands with adjacent-channel interference and poor signal penetration/coverage.

When did this happen? iBiquity did the research, it was peer-reviewed, tested, and accepted. The NRSC committee and the FCC looked at it and approved it for testing. How did iBiquity write their own rules?

I'll concede that IBOC on AM is an issue, but I 100% disagree that FM is a problem. I've travelled all over, and have not had any reception issues, nor have we heard of any widespread interference complaints. Again, the coverage isn't poor - there are lots of people who pull out "predicted" coverage maps, but in the middle of the country, a 50Kw FM running IBOC can easily cover 30+ miles in HD/HD2. Receiver design is the key...you don't need to use "brute force" to get a clean signal...you need just enough to decode.

 

[700WLW]

"When did this happen? iBiquity did the research, it was peer-reviewed, tested, and accepted. The NRSC committee and the FCC looked at it and approved it for testing. How did iBiquity write their own rules? I'lll concede that IBOC on AM is an issue, but I 100% disagree that FM is a problem. I've travelled all over, and have not had any reception issues, nor have we heard of any widespread interference complaints. Again, the coverage isn't poor - there are lots of people who pull out "predicted" coverage maps, but in the middle of the country, a 50Kw FM running IBOC can easily cover 30+ miles in HD/HD2. Receiver design is the key...you don't need to use "brute force" to get a clean signal...you need just enough to decode."

Becasue the FCC did not even consider alternative working technologies, as DRM, which doesn't have the serious issues, as with IBOC. There are many testimonials to IBOC FM interference.

 

[IBOCRocks]

"When did this happen? iBiquity did the research, it was peer-reviewed, tested, and accepted. The NRSC committee and the FCC looked at it and approved it for testing. How did iBiquity write their own rules? I'lll concede that IBOC on AM is an issue, but I 100% disagree that FM is a problem. I've travelled all over, and have not had any reception issues, nor have we heard of any widespread interference complaints. Again, the coverage isn't poor - there are lots of people who pull out "predicted" coverage maps, but in the middle of the country, a 50Kw FM running IBOC can easily cover 30+ miles in HD/HD2. Receiver design is the key...you don't need to use "brute force" to get a clean signal...you need just enough to decode."

Becasue the FCC did not even consider alternative working technologies, as DRM, which doesn't have the serious issues, as with IBOC. There are many testimonials to IBOC FM interference.

There are many testimonials, most of which are anecdotal at the moment. Until there is some solid proof, and some rulings to back it up, it's a "he said, she said" proposition.

The FCC is free to consider or not consider anything. At the time IBOC appeared to them to be the superior technology. Who knows, they may still feel that way.

 

[Chuck]

I'd think the Dallas Ft. Worth area would be a good example of "everyone living in a fringe area." Most transmitters are located in Cedar Hill, which as I recall is about 10-15 miles south of the mid point between Downtown Dallas and Downtown Ft Worth. Even some stations with north suburban Cities of License seem to transmit from Cedar Hill.

Most of the growth in these two cities has actually been on their north sides. In the case of Dallas, that's Colin and Denton Counties. These are affluent suburbs, where most advertisers would like to drum up a little business

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but that puts a lot of the affluent listeners a good 50-60 (or more) miles away from the transmitters. The good news, it the Cedar Hill area has very tall sticks. Will the HD carriers really work that far? Supposedly they are good to the 64 dbu contour. I suspect that a lot of regular listeners live well past that point.

Since there are several HD stations on the air in the DFW area, there must be someone with some real world experience. For instance can WRR’s HD signal be picked up in Plano, Allen or McKinney?

Just wondering. Where I live in East Texas, almost EVERYTHING is a “fringe area signal.”