• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

A general question

P

Phippy

Guest
Why don't the larger AM markets move to FM? I listen to 600 WREC AM most of the time, and their phaser cabinets kick in at 5:00pm this time of year and I can't hear anything near Mason and Covington. I'm completely ignorant of the subject and I'm wondering why a successful larger market AM station wouldn't switch to FM for a consistency of signal. Is it cost prohibitive or is the bandwidth too limited? Or am I missing some obvious point?

Thanks.
 
Yes, you're missing the obvious point. The FCC won't let you do just whatever you want. If you're licensed for AM you're an AM station. If you're licensed for FM you're an FM. They're not interchangable. And for good measure the FCC gives you a power limit, too.
 
> phaser cabinets...

[EDIT] Anyone who knows what a phaser cabinet is would know better than to ask such a question.

Next?

DE


[EDIT-namecalling]
 
when you have a pie with 6 slices you want all 6 to be as good as you can make them

sometimes am does move to fm

920 KARN in Little Rock is an example which now is on am 920 and fm 102.9.

Clear Channels FM's all perform well.

WHAL 95.7 is another example.. It was 990 KWAM.

Clear Channel blowing up an FM to put WREC on it would be a very shocking move but one I don't think we will see happening unless there is a mass extiction of a large group of people soon.
 
Why don't the larger AM markets move to FM?

Are you so ignorant to think that all one has to do is choose Button A for AM or Button F for FM? If so, please move along. This is a ridiculos question.

???
 
Easy, folks..someone's been skipping thier happy pills. The question wasn't exactly framed well, but I think Phippy wants to know what keeps successful AM stations from putting the format on FM. A legitimate question...

And some AM's DO put on an FM signal. KARN was an excellent example. However, there is absolutely no more space for any additional FM signals in Memphis, and AM actually is a good place for a news / talk format. Most broadcasters would consider talk on FM as a waste because the higher fidelity is where you want your music formats. However, if they could find a signal, CC would do well to put WREC on an FM up north, for the very reasons you mention...they have no signal that way at night.

Now, all together...Kumbaya...
 
You know,

I am a little bit perplexed why the moderator would edit the word I used. This word, beginning with a T and which rhymes with "pole," is a legimate word to use in such matters. It's defined as, "to post controversial or provocative messages in a deliberate attempt to provoke flames."

Now, when one encounters a question such as above, and the poster, using an alias, is posting for the first time under that name, to suspect this person fits into the aforementioned category is reasonable. It is not name-calling; it is an accepted term in this world.

Oh, well...

DE
 
radiosaur said:
Easy, folks..someone's been skipping thier happy pills. The question wasn't exactly framed well, but I think Phippy wants to know what keeps successful AM stations from putting the format on FM. A legitimate question...

And some AM's DO put on an FM signal. KARN was an excellent example. However, there is absolutely no more space for any additional FM signals in Memphis, and AM actually is a good place for a news / talk format. Most broadcasters would consider talk on FM as a waste because the higher fidelity is where you want your music formats. However, if they could find a signal, CC would do well to put WREC on an FM up north, for the very reasons you mention...they have no signal that way at night.

Now, all together...Kumbaya...

Thank you, that was indeed my question and you're right, I didn't frame it well.

As to the phaser questions, I only know that because the station told me that's what caused the in signal direction and explained the concept to me.

I've never explored the technical side of radio, so consequently I really do know nothing about it. For example, I did not know that the FM band in Memphis was saturated.

At any rate, for those of you that chose to explain, thank you.

Phil in Mason.
 
DeadElvis said:
You know,

I am a little bit perplexed why the moderator would edit the word I used. This word, beginning with a T and which rhymes with "pole," is a legimate word to use in such matters. It's defined as, "to post controversial or provocative messages in a deliberate attempt to provoke flames."

Now, when one encounters a question such as above, and the poster, using an alias, is posting for the first time under that name, to suspect this person fits into the aforementioned category is reasonable. It is not name-calling; it is an accepted term in this world.

Oh, well...

DE


I have had the word "coondog" edited as well. The funny thing is, it was edited as soon as I posted it.

Automated, perhaps? I suspect so, since if you parse the word you would come up with a term used as a racial slur.

Hhmmmm...
 
> don't take offense at Phippy...

Well, if I misread the situation, I apologize. That being said, the initial posting had all the hallmarks of being a tr*** (I redact, as 'Saur may be right that there is some automated editing here).

Anyway... I have a air shift to finish, so I should pay less attention to the Board! :)

BTW, and on a different topic entirely: I am hearing that the latest round of Clear Channel firings is over. A former management-type in the company tells me the timing just before Thanksgiving is not unexpected. The exiting employee gets 30 days severance (assuming their contract is silent on the issue), and they are off the books by January 1.

Back to work.

DE
 
I just get back from trip to canada and this is underway there, am switching to fm. not sure why but the way they do things there different. here fcc regulate fm differently and observe rules for allocation of frequency and spacing of them. yoU see unless they change rule wont happen anytime soon you can bet. if that talk station wrec so popular then why don't they put it on fm digital second channnel and promote it that way as alternate reception method or is that too simple? do they have fm afiliate i think so or they did at one time. wrec stand for wooten radio electric company ols man Wooten was a card.
 
Not that I am anybody, but Phippy asked me the question in real life, and I told him about this board. I thought he might find an answer here. He was just curious. He's like that. I am sorry if this was not the appropriate forum for such a question.
 
If my mind serves me correctly, WREC-FM begat WZXR in mid/late 70's, which begat WEGR. As for ownership, I won't even attempt that one....

Pertaining to the "phaser" question, Phippy had an interesting concept actually. Wonder if any of the AM directionals are backfilling service area nulls with FM (FM can be directional)? I have no idea what the "simulcast" rules are today (if any exist).

Remember being asked why the old WMPS could be heard in Gulfport, MS, but not in Lakeland, TN at night. Try to explain that one....

Radiosaur, when did X-88 get 30kw? I still remember 2.15kw, or do I?
 
The simulcast rules are pretty simple. If you own both stations you can do it at will. The numbers can't be combined unless it's a 100% simulcast, and they have to be seperately ID'd. The way it usually works is an AM is simulcast with an FM because the cost of seperate programming isn't worth bearing on the AM. I know of one case (there are probably others) where an FM is used to backfill coverage of an AM, and that's in San Diego where XEPRS (Tijuana) uses a Mexican FM (don't know the calls) to fill in east San Diego county where XEPRS has poor coverage. This is basically for Padres baseball and I don't know if they do it full time or just for games.

As far as moving an AM to an FM channel, there's just no way to do it, with an exception I'll get to in a minute. All of the frequency allocations have long been filled in markets of any size whatsoever. There are a few places out in the hinterlands where there are some class A stations that haven't yet been allocated or built, but the cost of putting one up doesn't jibe with trying to keep it going with a very small population to listen to it. I'm talking, for example, places like Quartzite, AZ where they may have 200,000 snowbirds in the winter, but the actual population of the town is only a couple of thousand or less. There is a class A there that barely survives.

There are numerous AM's that have daytime only, or extremely low post sunset power authorizations. They would love to be able to continue operations at night somehow, but have to lower power or go off to make way for stations they protect at night. This is where we get into how an AM could migrate to FM.

There are two systems that could be utilized. One is the HD2 channel of an existed HD operating FM. The HD can be split into a number of additional channels. One channel could be used to carry the AM programming thus providing continuous operation of the AM. The problem is there are very few receivers capable of hearing these signals. The other possibility is called FMeXtra, and utilizes an analog station's existing subcarriers to transmit a digital signal. This system can also be used in addition to HD channels without interfering with the main analog signal or the HD signals. Again, radios for this sytem are virtually nonexistent but are on the horizon.
 
There are a couple of stations on AM that literally have migrated to FM, but these are oddities, based upon co-channel skywave interference.

News-talker WJNT 1180 in Jackson, MS had the misfortune of being on the same frequency as Radio Marti, the Voice of America station beamed at Cuba. The Cubans, afraid of having their countrymen hear any information not orchestrated by party-controlled authorities, saw fit to jam Marti. This caused some problems for stations like WJNT.

So, what's 'JNT to do? Well, the FCC handled these problems on a case-by-case basis, and in WJNT's case, they gave them an FM frequency to use at night (only). That station, WJNT-FM1, has bounced from frequency to frequency a bit, and operates now on 103.3. It's 500w ERP on a fairly short tower, but has pretty decent coverage.

Again, this station is an oddity -- so odd, in fact, that if you do a lookup on the FCC site, you won't find it.

There was a station in Nashville with a similar issue. 'Not sure if it's still on.

DE
 
There are a couple of stations on AM that literally have migrated to FM, but these are oddities, based upon co-channel skywave interference.

News-talker WJNT 1180 in Jackson, MS had the misfortune of being on the same frequency as Radio Marti, the Voice of America station beamed at Cuba. The Cubans, afraid of having their countrymen hear any information not orchestrated by party-controlled authorities, saw fit to jam Marti. This caused some problems for stations like WJNT.

There was a station in Nashville with a similar issue. 'Not sure if it's still on.

It is. 98.7 relaying the 1160 station. Like WJNT's, it only operates at night. Unlike WJNT's, to be honest it's no longer necessary - the powerful Cuban on 1160 has been gone for years, the strongest nighttime interference to this station comes from Chicago...

About a month ago, a petition was filed asking that the rules be amended to allow FM translators to relay AM stations. Translator coverage to be limited to the station's *daytime* contours. (in fact, in most cases the 250-watt translator power limit would be more restrictive than the daytime contours) I don't see much action on this and even if it were approved tomorrow it'd take years (if not decades!) for the Commission to act on any applications...

This is where we get into how an AM could migrate to FM. There are two systems that could be utilized. One is the HD2 channel of an existed HD operating FM.

From my experience with HD coverage I don't think this would be much improvement over the directional AM<grin>...

Wonder if any of the AM directionals are backfilling service area nulls with FM (FM can be directional)?

It's been done but not to my knowledge in Tennessee. WBT-FM in Charlotte, for example. KSL in Salt Lake recently launched a FM simulcast - though since KSL is non-directional fulltime I guess it isn't backfilling any nulls<grin>...

Most broadcasters would consider talk on FM as a waste because the higher fidelity is where you want your music formats.

Cumulus is using two FM frequencies for talk in Nashville. (99.7/100kw and 106.7/6kw equivalent) Citadel also has a FM sports station here. (104.5/58kw) Admittedly this is a rare case. Possibly spurred by the fact that there's only two AM stations with citywide nighttime coverage and one of them (WSM) is committed to a music format.

I just get back from trip to canada and this is underway there, am switching to fm.

For one thing, in Canada you must show that a new station has a realistic financial plan and that it won't split the advertising pie into enough pieces to damage existing stations. Merely being able to show it won't cause electrical interference isn't enough. As a result, many cities - even those of 200,000 population or more - have had available frequencies.

It also helped that the CKO national network of all-news stations went bust back in the early 90s. CKO had powerful FM stations in most major cities, and it took something like ten years for the government to reallocate their old frequencies. That's how the CBC could move their station in Toronto, the country's largest market, from 740AM to a 100kw FM signal on 99.1.

Finally, in Canada 3rd-adjacent frequencies can be used. (sometimes even 2nd-adjacent) 93.5 C3/94.1 C1; 100.7 C2/101.3 A; 104.5 C1/105.1 A; and 106.5 C3/107.1 C1 are all channel pairs in operation in Toronto. All of these stations are licensed to Toronto and most of them transmit from one of two buildings downtown - none of them are "rimshotters". This of course opens a lot more FM frequencies for potential AM conversions.
 
Ok, as a listener I have a related question: Why is it that so many Memphis AMs have a directional signal that make them weaker to the North and East, some of them even in the daytime? The main one I can bring up is 1210, which I listened to when they did oldies and then CCM. (Not any more since they dropped CCM and went to a format of the week.) They had a 10,000 watt directional signal, but it was barely listenable on the outskirts of Dyersburg, where I lived at the time. Then when they were doing technical work for a while in '93 or '94, they switched back to a 1000 watt non-directional signal that actually came in better, and I could get it into Kentucky! I know that the reason for each station is to protect another station's signal, but why is it that so many AMs in Memphis have to do that?
 
And I have a question on top of that!

Why is it that we have NO 50,000 watt AM clear-channel (in the original sense of the term) stations, when Nashville has TWO, WSM 650 & WLAC 1510?
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom