A Little Perspective

[lalumia]

8)Jack sucked, it was the worst and now, Thank God, IT'S GONE!!!!
and the white people are just gonna have to get over it!!!!

 

[hipporadio]

12+ doesn't matter. How will it do in the demo breakdowns? Jack wasn't setting the world on fire there either but it did crack the top 10 25-54, probably skewing towards the younger end of that group.

Jack had an average age of 43, so it was in the "older half" of 25-54.

CBS-FM, even the new, updated version we're hearing now, will likely skew on the older side of the 25-54 scale.

Based on other "classic hits" stations, CBS-FM should average 45 to 47... just a bit older than Jack was. The old CBS-FM had a 51 average age in its last full book.

The updated CBS-FM is also playing plenty of stuff from the 70s and 80's that's already been burnt to a crisp by the likes of Lite FM, KTU, the former Mix 102.7 and even a little bit by PLJ. Just because CBS-FM wasn't there to play many of those songs for two years doesn't mean no one else did.

It is more than a guess that CBS tested before launching. And it is likely that they found that the "brunt out songs" to people on message boards are actually the ones listeners to whatever we call CBS-FM today want to hear a lot.

Every time I hear about played out songs on these boards, I know that those songs are likely to be the biggest testing songs against the real audience.

Oh my goodness... I’m agreeing with ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT of a D.E. post – in the same week as I gave CBS Radio a “thumbs-up”... What could possibly be next – a trip to my broker to buy CCU stock? Could David be “coming to the table” [much like CBS-FM did], or may we have disagreed [in prior exchanges] over semantics and/or misconceptions? Overall David, it isn’t “a stretch” to conclude [here at R-I] that you are far from enthused about the prospects of an “Oldies” station... I guess that depends on the widely-varied definition of such. Could we be seeing these differing definitions as reason for the current discourse on display here now?

David, I couldn’t agree with you more on the prospects for a station that hangs out in the late-50s and early-60s... Recall my polite response to Sam Lit in the “Epitome” post:

And Sam [Lit]... Your old man was a legend...

And Sam... With MUCH due respect... My father grew-up with your father on the radio in Philly [Landsdowne/Upper Darby to be exact]... He celebrated his SEVENTY-FIFTH birthday yesterday... I also loved WIBG on summer visits to my Grandmother and the Jersey shore, but I discovered them as an early-teen in 1971. CCR, CSN&Y, and the Stampeders were modulating 990AM – NOT Johnny Mathes and “The Jailhouse Rock”.

In another topic on the 60s/70s Classic Hits board [where we WERE NOT debating the “merits” of Johnny Mathis or “The Jailhouse Rock”], I called early attention to the onset of PPM as a possible benefactor for “pre-modern music stations”... YOU DISAGREED and launched your usual attack. I countered [paraphrase]; “fine, but there’s four battling in the market I live in”... You sniped in a one-line response: “What market would that be?” [Do I detect some condescension in that remark?] Is it unreasonable to conclude that [despite your current appreciation for “newer oldies”] you’re disposed to contemporarily-dismiss most pre-90s radio AND nearly any market outside a top-20 ranking?

That market would be the “insignificant and seldom-recalled” city of Charleston, S.C. : I’m sure you know of it David – it’s the “civilized NOLA” – the one on the east coast where the “War of Northern Aggression” commenced. Every available FM channel permitted by FCC spacing is populated, and they’ve still managed to add one more. The usual corporate culprits are well-clustered - CCU and Citadel, but there is also a hint [merely a hint] of non-monolithic radio ownership. In many respects, Charleston is a “bi-polar” community... There is no shortage of older white-man money, yet the market is best-characterized as “urban”, and that is reflected by much of the FM landscape. Older demos are in no short supply, yet there is a nearly-constant circulation of younger residents and tourists.

Charleston’s heritage and perennially-successful Oldies outlet has been WXLY, but CCU’s recent treatment of it comes just shy of the fate that initially befell CBS-FM. Its lower-octane late-60s/70s/early-80s pop-rock-based FM competition has goated it into a flip-fest that nearly-equals that of a circus acrobat! The stations that are giving ‘XLY its painful case of acid-reflux are presented in a similar fashion to that being criticized on the new CBS-FM. Meanwhile over on AM; Mr. Mathis resides on a PC in the CCU-cluster broom closet [a quickie-replacement for failed "progressive talk"], and The Jailhouse Rocks a demure [albeit “delightful”] suburban daytimer. There is little interest [and even fewer ratings] on both! I suppose the forces of the marketplace have dully-appointed the appropriate broadcast facilities based on the public’s disposition to listen. Ironically, the “casualty” [when one considers the mere technical facility and history alone] is the formerly-beloved WXLY which appears to have lost much of what John Covey would call “a positive emotional bank account” with its public. They wandered from their past [appropriately], but they fall short of a firm commitment to their future. Maybe Mr. Mason needs to schedule a “working vacation” in ChuckTown!

 

[davideduardo]

Oh my goodness... I’m agreeing with ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT of a D.E. post – in the same week as I gave CBS Radio a “thumbs-up”... What could possibly be next – a trip to my broker to buy CCU stock? Could David be “coming to the table” [much like CBS-FM did], or may we have disagreed [in prior exchanges] over semantics and/or misconceptions? Overall David, it isn’t “a stretch” to conclude [here at R-I] that you are far from enthused about the prospects of an “Oldies” station... I guess that depends on the widely-varied definition of such. Could we be seeing these differing definitions as reason for the current discourse on display here now?

I think you hit the point. I don't see commercial viability for oldies stations (and by that I mean 60's based... maybe a little 50's, maybe a little 70's) due to the sales demos in markets that depend on ratings based agency sales. I do see such stations continuing to have large audiences, but mostly over-55 in age.

The industry seems to have accepted the term "classic hits" for 70's based stations, whether they play a bit more 60's or a bit more 80's, or whether they are on the rock or pop side. And that concept works in the PPM, coming to the entire top 50 markets int he next few years. So we will likely see more of this, and fast, if CBS-FM does a good job in the PPM, starting on September 20th in NY.

I'm "facing the fact" that we probably both agree more than we disagree! But I am not logging on to place an order for CCU stock!.

David, I couldn’t agree with you more on the prospects for a station that hangs out in the late-50s and early-60s... Recall my polite response to Sam Lit in the “Epitome” ...

Aw, go on, rub it in!

In another topic on the 60s/70s Classic Hits board [where we WERE NOT debating the “merits” of Johnny Mathis or “The Jailhouse Rock”], I called early attention to the onset of PPM as a possible benefactor for “pre-modern music stations”... YOU DISAGREED and launched your usual attack. I countered [paraphrase]; “fine, but there’s four battling in the market I live in”... You sniped in a one-line response: “What market would that be?” [Do I detect some condescension in that remark?] Is it unreasonable to conclude that [despite your current appreciation for “newer oldies”] you’re disposed to contemporarily-dismiss most pre-90s radio AND nearly any market outside a top-20 ranking?

Keep in mind I developed the Spanish "adult hits" or "classic hits" format now on 12 stations. And over the last 8 years, we moved totally out of the 60's except for a few "flavor songs" that would have been hits were they released in 1980 as opposed, to, say, 1967. At the same time, we moved into the early 90's on songs that "would have been hits were they released in 1975" or, in other words, we are very sond based... not chart based.

I believe I misunderstood your point here, also. I did not realize you were referring to classic hits, and thought you were looking at the PPM to benefit by showing more younger listeners the 60's based oldies formats. Demos do not change in PPM... what changes is the accuracy of measuring "hearing" vs. "intentional listening."

That market would be the “insignificant and seldom-recalled” city of Charleston, S.C. : ....Charleston’s heritage and perennially-successful Oldies outlet has been WXLY, but CCU’s recent treatment of it comes just shy of the fate that initially befell CBS-FM. Its lower-octane late-60s/70s/early-80s pop-rock-based FM competition has goated it into a flip-fest that nearly-equals that of a circus acrobat! The stations that are giving ‘XLY its painful case of acid-reflux are presented in a similar fashion to that being criticized on the new CBS-FM. Meanwhile over on AM; Mr. Mathis resides on a PC in the CCU-cluster broom closet [a quickie-replacement for failed "progressive talk"], and The Jailhouse Rocks a demure [albeit “delightful”] suburban daytimer. There is little interest [and even fewer ratings] on both! I suppose the forces of the marketplace have dully-appointed the appropriate broadcast facilities based on the public’s disposition to listen. Ironically, the “casualty” [when one considers the mere technical facility and history alone] is the formerly-beloved WXLY which appears to have lost much of what John Covey would call “a positive emotional bank account” with its public. They wandered from their past [appropriately], but they fall short of a firm commitment to their future. Maybe Mr. Mason needs to schedule a “working vacation” in ChuckTown!

Why in the world woud there be multiple stations in the oldies / classic arena if the market has such a high ethnic population. Sounds like so much fragmentation that nobody can win.

 

[OldiesCat]

I have to admit, what they have been playing since Friday, has largely been played out and IS burnt, and they are repeating much too much stuff.

Are you in radio?

 

[Lando Griffin]

8)Jack sucked, it was the worst and now, Thank God, IT'S GONE!!!!
and the white people are just gonna have to get over it!!!!

Thank you, Reverend Al, but JACK was not programmed to the lowest common denominator.

 

[hipporadio]

Why in the world woud there be multiple stations in the oldies / classic arena if the market has such a high ethnic population. Sounds like so much fragmentation that nobody can win.

Very good point, David! You pose a question often debated within assorted bistros up ‘n down East Bay Street at many a Happy Hour. There are a few easy and understandable answers... Remember that Charleston sits on the coast with NO possible FM allocations over a 180-degree arc east of its sea-wall. This greatly enhances the permissible FM population... “Enhanced” is a mild adverb – “well-over-populated” is a more accurate description... So much so, that Citadel is actually MOVING A 100kw FM OUT to reposition it within its Columbia cluster. So HOW MANY within the local FM abundance could sanely choose to “act urban”? While they may achieve a plurality in population – they are far from claiming the “power” prize. Remember also, that sales-types in ChasTown chase after LOCAL DOLLARS; and those that spend them long-ago learned the difference between “demographics” [who] versus “psychographics” [what]. So [actually] COUNTRY is the format of choice, but it [also] is well-covered [the departing Citadel FM I mentioned is a combative country-music challenger]. “Talk” is covered by heritage WTMA [AM] and a recent CCU FM addition. The next option is one that chases the local “white-man’s-money” [of which there is PLENTY]; transplanted residents; plus older out-of-town and “Yankee” visitor attention: Oldies, Classic Hits, Classic Rock, and gold-based AC [which the current WXLY is mere-inches away from ‘fessing-up to]. The battle is for “seconds”, and they aren’t necessarily “sloppy seconds”.

So what [in this forum] does “Hell’s back-acre” have to do with The Big Apple? Does anything about my prior paragraph [minus the dominance of a country station] completely-evade the radio landscape in Market #1? Not much [if any] - the same paradigms are in play – just toss-in A LOT more agency business and segregate local-direct to the suburbs.

While Charleston cannot claim the romantic radio heritage of WABC, the WMCA “Good Guys”, and [even] W-NNN-BC; it is NO LESS fertile for upper-demo listening. My mother’s cousin recently retired and moved from Rye, NY to ChuckTown; and toted his appreciation for Harrison, Lundy, and Morrow southward for transplant to the two local AM “oldies” stations I earlier mentioned and news/talk WTMA [he has NO INTEREST in the FM band – he is 68 years old]. As for the current CBS-FM... All that Charleston’s lowered-powered and acknowledged challengers to 100kw “Oldies WXLY” are appropriately programming, appears to precede what is now in play [and under heated criticism] at 101.1 FM in NYC! Shocking as it may seem, this “horrifying train-wreck” called “the pop-rock late 60s/70s/early-80s” hit “Hell’s back-acre” well-before Mr. Mason surprised his corporate fraternity brethren and put “Jack” in an even-smaller box!

 

[Barry45RPM]

I have to admit, what they have been playing since Friday, has largely been played out and IS burnt, and they are repeating much too much stuff.

Are you in radio?

No, I do not make a living in Radio. Almost bought a suburban station years back, and have been an advertiser on Radio for my Retail Business. I always loved the business of Radio, not sitting in a room wearing a set of cans & entertaining... although I can see how people love that end too.

 

[OldiesCat]

Being an obvious radio fan/freak/geek (complimentary in meaning-aren't we all?), you've likely heard these songs way more frequently than the typical, everyday radio user. Heck, you can make the case that "Brown-Eyed Girl" is 'burnt' after being on the radio in various formats for 40 years, yet it remains one of THE hits of that time and shows zero sign of weakening.

The problem isn't that some songs are burned out, it's often the wrong songs get overplayed for the sake of saying "we play a lot of variety". The hits will always be the hits- the challenge is making sure too many non-relevant (for 2007) hits are getting over-exposed by radio hack who think "gee, we've been playing the crap out of Brown-Eyed Girl for 40 years, so let's find some other (lesser) songs to give some exposure to".

DISCLAIMER: that does not mean I favor 300 song playlists for Oldies-type stations. It also means I don't advocate 1000 song lists.

 

[Lando Griffin]

Still, there are some great songs from listeners' pasts they still enjoy (but might not want to hear constanty)... Therefore, a good music director can keep a large playlist, play the bigger hits more frequently, the lesser hits less frequently (possibly tiering their times to be played) while rotating them in and out of the playlist durig parts of each year and maybe a RARE "Oh Wow!" song (annually played?) popping up. This could solve both problems of playlists which are "too short" or "expanded too much for a type of audience."

Of course, this means the suits have to keep their hands off an dinvest in a good music director or PD who can do this the right way.

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

Of course, this means the suits have to keep their hands off an dinvest in a good music director or PD who can do this the right way.

These days, the PD's and MD's frequently are "the suits" who study and survey the value of individual songs, which is one reason they've become good at their jobs. It's become like evaluating stocks based on performance and projected performance. The time honored axiom, "You can't get hurt by what you don't play" still applies.

And as to the Jack format (moment of silence) it's not so much deep as it is wide. I'm not a big fan of the format when it's presented jockless and sanitized, but in markets where it's live or massaged and groomed daily, it does well.

CBS-FM is doing a good job positioning the "new" Classic Hits format. As noted in other threads, it's not perfect, but it beats by a mile what was on the frequency the last two years.

 

[PeteRFNY]

Great post - can't wait to see the first CBS-FM book. Just on the curiosity factor alone, it should be silly.

Oddly enough, I have heard with my own two ears (and seen with my own two eyes ) so-called "oldies" stations that have had listeners that ranged from teens to grandpas by playing a decent mix of actual "Top 40" from the 60s, 70s and 'format-friendly' 80s choices, plus a smattering of "timeless 50s" classics. The way it was accomplished was by the presentation. Amazingly, you can find out sometimes that music is just MUSIC, and if presented the right way, people will listen to it. Throw in some personality, a few off-the-path oddities and steer away from "40 minutes of music followed by 20 minutes of commercials". Programmers love that - listeners HATE it.

Another lost key is just to not hit listeners over the head with the fact that they're listening to "oldies" so much. Yes, for some that's a comforting term - for others, it's a stigma as all they hear in "oldies" is "old". Just play the music. People that are over 40 already know they are over 40 - they don't need to be constantly reminded of that by having "the songs you grew up with" hammered into their skulls. They already know that the AARP is on the horizon.

While we are at it, enough with goofy consultant-fed slogans that induce vomiting. Maybe right now these AREN'T such "good times", and these might not be such "great oldies" to me. Maybe I want to hear some "bad times, lousy oldies"! SHUDDUP!

Alas, while I have seen the above formula be successful in small places where people are more likely to take risks, it's not gonna happen in New York or any other "top" market. But boy, it sure would be fun.

 

[radioray]

From what I have heard, this whole thing came down pretty quickly. Someone posted something somewhere (here? allaccess? Sniffen board?) that it was quite a feat to get the MICROPHONES back in the studio in time for the launch! Things happened VERY fast. For that reason, it is quite possible this is being played right now based on someones safe list rather than based upon an auditorium test.

Personally I think there are quite a few songs that they used to play, that fits even a "fifties-less" oldies station just fine, that they are right now not playing. Maybe they remain to be added to the list as the days go on. They quite possibly simply havent been loaded into the computer yet!

This was posted on the Sniffen board (not by me).

The top of the list is what they are playing now, scroll down to "removed" songs.

http://www.freewebs.com/cbsplaylist/

It would take forever to go through both lists, but, (and now this is me working from MY gut, no research), I would play the following from the letter "C" songs. I will just do one letter to keep it brief and C seems to be the first that has a good number of songs from all kinds of decades. I agree that many of the letter A and B songs don't fit (quite a few do, but not "most" IMO...). So from "C"....

Maybe its just a matter of time for the adds. Takes time to throw together a station!

These are C songs that they used to play, arent playing now, but I personally think they fit (gut).

88. Carly Simon - Mockingbird.flac
89. Carole King - I Feel The Earth Move.flac
90. Cat Stevens - Peace Train.flac
93. Cheryl Lynn - Got To Be Real.flac
94. Chicago - Beginnings.flac
95. Chicago - Feelin' Stronger Every Day.flac
96. Chicago - Just You 'N' Me.flac
97. Chicago - Make Me Smile.flac
98. Chicago - Searchin' So Long.flac
99. Chi-Lites - Have You Seen Her.flac
100. Chubby Checker - The Twist.flac (as a "golden nugget" on occasion, not in power or even secondary)
101. Chuck Berry - Johnny B. Goode.flac (same as the Checker song)
102. Classics IV - Spooky.flac
106. Climax - Precious And Few.flac
107. Crazy Elephant - Gimme Gimme Good Lovin'.flac
108. Cream - Sunshine Of Your Love.flac
109. Cream - White Room.flac
110. Creedence Clearwater Revival - Who'll Stop The Rain.flac
111. Crosby Stills & Nash - Marrakesh Express.flac
112. Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young - Our House.flac
113. Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young - Teach Your Children.flac

 

[lalumia]

I've heard a number of those songs on your list getting played on the new CBS FM

 

[OldiesCat]

Great post - can't wait to see the first CBS-FM book. Just on the curiosity factor alone, it should be silly.

Oddly enough, I have heard with my own two ears (and seen with my own two eyes ) so-called "oldies" stations that have had listeners that ranged from teens to grandpas by playing a decent mix of actual "Top 40" from the 60s, 70s and 'format-friendly' 80s choices, plus a smattering of "timeless 50s" classics. The way it was accomplished was by the presentation. Amazingly, you can find out sometimes that music is just MUSIC, and if presented the right way, people will listen to it. Throw in some personality, a few off-the-path oddities and steer away from "40 minutes of music followed by 20 minutes of commercials". Programmers love that - listeners HATE it.

Another lost key is just to not hit listeners over the head with the fact that they're listening to "oldies" so much. Yes, for some that's a comforting term - for others, it's a stigma as all they hear in "oldies" is "old". Just play the music. People that are over 40 already know they are over 40 - they don't need to be constantly reminded of that by having "the songs you grew up with" hammered into their skulls. They already know that the AARP is on the horizon.

While we are at it, enough with goofy consultant-fed slogans that induce vomiting. Maybe right now these AREN'T such "good times", and these might not be such "great oldies" to me. Maybe I want to hear some "bad times, lousy oldies"! SHUDDUP!

Alas, while I have seen the above formula be successful in small places where people are more likely to take risks, it's not gonna happen in New York or any other "top" market. But boy, it sure would be fun.

That whole "people from their teens to their 60s listen to Oldies" is a non-starter. Anecdotal, at best, and there's never EVER been any sort of Oldies station that's ever been able to make a living counting on substantial TSL or Cume from many people under 40, much less in their teens. Never, EVER. So, please stop this "my kids' friends say they like Elvis" and "look at the Oldies they play on the PA at the ballgame". It's lame and means nothing to how real radio in 2007 operates.

 

[chuckydoll]

All the hype around CBS-FM screams Oldies are back! Oldies are back! Everyone's gonna listen to 101.1 again! Hooray!

Sorry, Charlie. The people who used to listen to CBS-FM have died or gone elsewhere. A casual listener will tune in 101.1 now and hear the same station as before the Jack flip, only with AOR cuts and movie soundtrack songs added.

I heard CBS-FM in its first week back and can say I am not impressed.

BTW, the last time Elvis Presley got any CHR airplay was 5 years ago -- and that was a fluke. It was the Junkie XL remix of "A Little Less Conversation" from the Disney movie "Lilo & Stitch".

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Who's Charlie? And do you look ugly like the Chucky in the movies or do you just like the name? Before they TIO, I don't know how you can say with a straight face "A casual listener will tune in 101.1 now and hear the same station as before the Jack flip, only with AOR cuts and movie soundtrack songs added."
I don't think I need to recite 80% of the music CBS-FM plays now that JACK did not, do I?