A question about the audience

[davideduardo]

I agree with you 110%, radio is seriously missing out on potential here with 55+ (pre 1975 songs now this year). Many 55+ do in fact listen to the radio, probably more of them listening than under 55...

You still don't get the fact that there is essentially very little advertising money for stations catering to 55+.

If a station can not sell advertising on a format because advertisers don't want to use that format, the format is not viable.

 

[davideduardo]

I might be wrong, so I won't say for sure on this - but it doesn't seem to me that KOLA has an 800 song playlist. I heard the same songs pretty much all day long, with very little variety. Or, possibly, they don't fit with your definition of a "successful" Classic Hits station?

KOLA, in the last 10 days, played about 700 different titles. Since they are more extreme in being rock leaning and 70's oriented than stations like KOOL, CBS-FM, WOGL and even KRTH, the expected list might be a little smaller.

As the highest billing station in the market... as a station showing good 25-54 growth... and one under long-time continuous ownership, KOLA certainly fits the definition of a successful station.

The example you use of KFRC was, according to you, only a three year stint. What happened? Why did it stop working? What changed? Yep, I bet people got tired of the repetition. Tune-out.

Top 40, now called CHR, is where we best see that the term variety does not ever mean "more songs".

If you do research on all manner of formats in large and medium markets and even in a few foreign countries, you learn that the stations that own the strongest image of "variety" are Top 40 stations.

That's because listeners perceive variety to mean "every time I tune in I hear a song I like" and they don NOT perceive variety to mean "Every time I tune in I hear a song I had forgotten about and really was not looking to hear because I didn't like it all that much ever".

Top 40's play the hits. Consensus hits they only play about 15-17 currents, a small batch of recurrents and some image gold... generally around 100 to 120 songs. When they play more, the variety image declines. When they play just the real, broad, consensus hits, they get stronger image positives and ratings increase.

A CHR we put on in San Antonio about 12 years ago is a rhythmic CHR. In its launch period, it played less than 60 songs. It became #1 in one book. 12 years later, it is still #1 in 18-49. And it gets great variety perception on every perceptual test.

Gold based stations have a harder time getting good variety images. And that image is key to getting repeat listening incidents, the basis for success in PPM programming. That's because different old songs age differently with different people. So a lot of work is taken to find out what the consensus songs are and and to play only those that appeal to all segments of the audience. In most cases, the total number of songs that pass is going to be between 600 and 800... and that number is determined by listeners, not some guy in a suit.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't know how they conducted research back then, I'm assuming they used diaries? I guess a lot of this in my mind comes down to my innate suspicion of "research". I once got one of those diaries, back around 1997 or so. I was lazy and just filled out whatever I felt like, mostly writing in KOLA and KRTH at random times on different days. I wasn't trying to be dishonest, I was just lazy.

And there is the defect of the diary... it measured cume (usage), TSL (Length of Usage) and a person's memory when it came to fill in the diary. Generally, favorite stations got rounded up to higher than real levels, and secondary stations were forgotten.

All this comes back to the one thing I mentioned, I don't believe the research is as accurate as it's represented to be.

You are talking about audience research, ratings. Those are done mostly for the advertisers, who want a metric.

Stations use very different research to determine the kind of programming a station will have. They don't publicize this, and they keep the results, like the formula for Coka, hidden away.

And existing radio audience research is more than adequate for buyers of national, local and regional agencies and sophisticated national ones too.

 

[CTListener]

Would this owner (or any for that matter) have played 1930's music in the same bookstore in 1983?

Why not? It wasn't unusual to go into a bookstore in a college town in the 80s and hear Duke Ellington. In fact, some bookstores play music originally written in the 18th century. We call it classical music. The Mexican restaurant I go to plays Mexican music. Personally, I don't care for it, but the owners enjoy it. So the customers put up with it.

They're in a Mexican restaurant! That music is part of the atmosphere. I like Indian food and just about every Indian restaurant I've been to has Indian music playing. Do I listen to Indian music at home? No. But it doesn't get me looking for the exit when I'm eating at The Sitar or The Taj Mahal any more than Mexican music drives you out of The Saguaro or Pancho Villa's. I'm more likely to notice, and react negatively to, the music at an Indian or Mexican restaurant when it's standard-issue AC or CHR. Dining at an Indian place seems a bit less exotic when you're doing it with "Just the Way You Are" or "Call Me Maybe" in the background.

 

[unitron]

Those of you who brought up how big a number of currents a station runs or used to run back in the day when those particular songs were new really did not understand my original question.

 

[michael hagerty]

Those of you who brought up how big a number of currents a station runs or used to run back in the day when those particular songs were new really did not understand my original question.

That was me and it wasn't in response to your original question, but rather to an exaggeration by another poster made to prove a point (if fewer songs work, why not take it all the way).

And there is relevance. To generations raised on the repetition of Top 40/CHR, a format where they hear a song every 19 days isn't repetitious.

 

[unitron]

Those of you who brought up how big a number of currents a station runs or used to run back in the day when those particular songs were new really did not understand my original question.

That was me and it wasn't in response to your original question, but rather to an exaggeration by another poster made to prove a point (if fewer songs work, why not take it all the way).

And there is relevance. To generations raised on the repetition of Top 40/CHR, a format where they hear a song every 19 days isn't repetitious.

Sorry, repetition of new songs isn't the same as beating the same old oldies to death.

Once the new is worn off, it's gone forever.

And the closest an oldies station can get to re-kindling that feeling is to make you say "Wow, I haven't heard that one in forever", or "Man, I'd forgotten all about that song."

 

[TheBigA]

And the closest an oldies station can get to re-kindling that feeling is to make you say "Wow, I haven't heard that one in forever", or "Man, I'd forgotten all about that song."

There's a reason they forgot about the song. It never really touched them in the first place.

When you listen to the audience (and I always recommend that), what you hear is people want to hear certain songs that meant something to them. The songs they played at their wedding, the songs they identify with a loved one, the songs they identify with certain things in their lives. These are the songs they talk about, and the songs they want to hear. They don't care how often they hear those songs, because every time they do, they bring them to a good place. It's like Happy Birthday. How many times have you heard that song? Doesn't matter, because every time you do, it's a good situation.

So what we do as radio programmers is separate the songs the radio audience wants to hear from the songs music fans want to hear. The music fans are the ones who want the "wow" songs. It isn't about an emotional connection for them. It's about statistics. That's what most of this thread is about. Quoting statistics about Electric Light Orchestra, as though any of that means anything to most people. It doesn't. Most people can name two songs by ELO. That's it. If you're playing more than those two songs, you're programming to a small, narrow minority who already own all the songs, and will always find something the station isn't playing. Those are the people who don't listen to classic hits radio anyway, because they find the song library too small. In the meantime, you have the vast majority of people who just want to hear the song they played at their wedding, which WASN'T an ELO song.

 

[oldies76]

There's a reason they forgot about the song. It never really touched them in the first place.

A song from the past does not neccessarily have to touch them emotionally to remember it today. A 16 year old may have heard "New Moon On Monday" back in 1983, in the car numerous times, just driving on PCH or on the freeway to and from an errand or some road trip. Now it's been 30 years since it's release. So if a station like KRTH played it on a Saturday afternoon and that same person manages to hear it, then you'll have the "Boy, haven't heard that song in about 30 years, cool song!" reaction from that listener at age 46.

It's like Happy Birthday. How many times have you heard that song?

Happy birthday is usually sung by different people in different parties in different ways and tones, not by one artist repeated over and over, in the same tone from a radio.

 

[oldies76]

Most people can name two songs by ELO. That's it.

True, it can be any two from their entire discography.

 

[TheBigA]

A song from the past does not neccessarily have to touch them emotionally to remember it today.

We've actually compared songs that touch people emotionally to songs that evoke the "wow" factor. What we find is that after the person reacts with the "wow" comment, they move on to doing other things. They don't stay with the song or the station. But when we play a song like "Celebrate" by Kool & The Gang, they stay with the song til the end. The goal of radio is to hold listeners through the songs, not get "wow" reactions. That's why radio sticks with songs that touch people emotionally.

 

[TheBigA]

Happy birthday is usually sung by different people in different parties in different ways and tones, not by one artist repeated over and over, in the same tone from a radio.

What we find, and we have lots of data on this, is that radio is a SONG medium, not an artist medium. People listen for songs, not particular artists. Fans listen for their favorite artists. But general listeners simply want certain songs, and they want them repeated over and over, so they can experience that moment again and again.

 

[firepoint525]

Would this owner (or any for that matter) have played 1930's music in the same bookstore in 1983?

Why not? It wasn't unusual to go into a bookstore in a college town in the 80s and hear Duke Ellington. In fact, some bookstores play music originally written in the 18th century. We call it classical music. The Mexican restaurant I go to plays Mexican music. Personally, I don't care for it, but the owners enjoy it. So the customers put up with it.

They're in a Mexican restaurant! That music is part of the atmosphere. I like Indian food and just about every Indian restaurant I've been to has Indian music playing. Do I listen to Indian music at home? No. But it doesn't get me looking for the exit when I'm eating at The Sitar or The Taj Mahal any more than Mexican music drives you out of The Saguaro or Pancho Villa's. I'm more likely to notice, and react negatively to, the music at an Indian or Mexican restaurant when it's standard-issue AC or CHR. Dining at an Indian place seems a bit less exotic when you're doing it with "Just the Way You Are" or "Call Me Maybe" in the background.

I would expect to hear mariachi music at a Mexican restaurant. However, a Mexican restaurant near me has an "all-you-can-eat" buffet on Sundays, so all I ever hear there is noise from everyone there! ;D If they are playing mariachi music (or anything else), it is too loud in there for me to hear it!

 

[davideduardo]

I would expect to hear mariachi music at a Mexican restaurant.

And that shows that the intended audience perhaps determines the music.

At better class "gourmet" Mexican restaurants, such as the ones you would find in Colonia Polanco in Mexico City, you would hear anything else but Mariachi or regional Mexican music, as the intended customers would not like it.

On the other hand, when you have a predominantly non-Mexican clientèle, the music is part of the overall dining experience, and should fit the kind of cuisine being served... in other words, Mariachi tunes.

Same applies to other retail locations: what are the expectations and what puts the customer in the best buying mood?

 

[michael hagerty]

Most people can name two songs by ELO. That's it.

True, it can be any two from their entire discography.

But for 90% of the public, it won't be. It'll be "Don't Bring Me Down" and one other...a toss-up from their remaining three top 10s.

It's like asking people to name two McDonald's menu items. They could name any of 30 or more items. But 90% will say "Big Mac" and either "Chicken McNuggets" or "Egg McMuffin".

It seems simplistic, but if you want to know how the average, non-obsessive American processes information, watch "Family Feud". Top two answers to any question are darn near universal, it falls off fast after that, and where contestants lose is usually in guessing wrong on answers 4 through 8. Check the percentages on those answers when they're revealed on the board. They're not consensus answers, but minority ones.

 

[PirateJohnny]

Are there really people out there in the radio audience who, upon hearing the announcer say "We've got some Van Morrison for you right after this", breathe a sigh of relief, secure in the knowledge that they are going to hear "Brown-eyed Girl" and are in no danger of being exposed to "Domino", "Moondance", or "Jackie Wilson Said"?

Now, to answer the OP. Actually I would prefer Domino and I would be delighted to hear Jackie Wilson Said. Just checked my personal library. Van Morrison is on my shopping list now.

 

[CTListener]

Are there really people out there in the radio audience who, upon hearing the announcer say "We've got some Van Morrison for you right after this", breathe a sigh of relief, secure in the knowledge that they are going to hear "Brown-eyed Girl" and are in no danger of being exposed to "Domino", "Moondance", or "Jackie Wilson Said"?

Now, to answer the OP. Actually I would prefer Domino and I would be delighted to hear Jackie Wilson Said. Just checked my personal library. Van Morrison is on my shopping list now.

Are you understanding what Michael and David have been patiently explaining for these many months? The average listener is a fan of the SONG "Brown Eyed Girl," not necessarily of Van Morrison. They'd have liked the song if it had been recorded originally by James Brown, Donovan, Elvis Presley or any other late-'60s chart notable you can name. Maybe it would have become one of the two James Brown songs on your local oldies station, instead of "I Got You (I Feel Good)" or "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag." But it cetainly wouldn't open the playlist 40 years later to all those other Brown (Donovan, Presley) songs that charted in the late '60s.

 

[michael hagerty]

Are there really people out there in the radio audience who, upon hearing the announcer say "We've got some Van Morrison for you right after this", breathe a sigh of relief, secure in the knowledge that they are going to hear "Brown-eyed Girl" and are in no danger of being exposed to "Domino", "Moondance", or "Jackie Wilson Said"?

Now, to answer the OP. Actually I would prefer Domino and I would be delighted to hear Jackie Wilson Said. Just checked my personal library. Van Morrison is on my shopping list now.

Are you understanding what Michael and David have been patiently explaining for these many months? The average listener is a fan of the SONG "Brown Eyed Girl," not necessarily of Van Morrison. They'd have liked the song if it had been recorded originally by James Brown, Donovan, Elvis Presley or any other late-'60s chart notable you can name. Maybe it would have become one of the two James Brown songs on your local oldies station, instead of "I Got You (I Feel Good)" or "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag." But it cetainly wouldn't open the playlist 40 years later to all those other Brown (Donovan, Presley) songs that charted in the late '60s.

And...before someone suggests it...that does not open the door to playing non-hit cover versions of the song by a different artist. The audience wants to hear that performance of that song.

Also, CT brings up a good point. If you were to ask 40-somethings who like Brown-Eyed Girl who did the song, only some would be able to tell you. They're not all familiar with Van. Nor should they be expected to be. And you'd find the same with most records by most artists.

"Who does that song...?" is a very common typical listener question.

 

[TheBigA]

"Who does that song...?" is a very common typical listener question.

Among the most popular web tools are widgets that answer that question.

 

[oldies76]

And...before someone suggests it...that does not open the door to playing non-hit cover versions of the song by a different artist. The audience wants to hear that performance of that song.

I'll agree with you there. I personally dislike most cover versions myself. An original should stay that way....an original. There are some exceptions, "Spooky" by the Atlanta Rhythm Section. Both versions are fabulous!