A Suggestion to the Dance Music fanatics...

[nd2023]

There already are several Internet dance stations with mixshows and personalities that are among the top of the Shoutcast rankings: Energy 98 and iPartyRadio come to mind
Dance is viewed as negative even in the college station realm, and those people eventually run commercial stations. Notice how most college stations don't play any dance music, and dance promoters don't send dance music to college stations unless they specifically ask. But every garage band in the signal radius will make sure their CDs are sent to the station.

As for Arbitron in rural areas, the ratings are skewed. I bet that only one person in the Moapa Valley got an Arbitron diary, and they don't listen to 94.5. If that person did get an Arbitron diary, 94.5 would be in the ratings and the cume would be high. Maybe when they eventually turn on their translator on the Strip, the ratings will increase.

There is no research on brand new songs. Joel Salkowitz knows the New York market well, and can add a song by ear. The other stations wait till the "research" comes in, and then adds the songs, which is why most people don't look to radio for new music anymore. But if it's a brand new Britney single no one's heard, every station will add it the first day they're allowed to. Look how long it took for Lady Gaga to be added to CHR. Pulse first played Just Dance back in June last year, I first heard it on Wired 96.5 in October. Sure, Joel isn't perfect and some songs flop, or he misses some songs till they're hits. In a way, Pulse 87 is doing the music research for other stations. Music research leads to the same songs repeated over and over again on most CHRs, which is the reason for low TSL, and the songs that "tested" well burn out quickly. How many CHR hits from 2003 are still played today? Almost none.

 

[MarcR]

And I'll close this rather protracted thread by, once again, quoting from that inimitable professor of popular culture, Robert Christgau, on why dance/techno music fails as a mass-appeal format on the radio:
>>"Inextricable from massive sound systems, mixed in the live moment
by the DJs who are its true auteurs, heightened by communal ecstasy
and the chemical Ecstasy that made it feel real, it was designed to be
accessed exclusively by its subculture. And it was also designed to kid
itself-to leave its claims to magic immune to empirical verification."<<

 

[MarcR]

Okay, I spoke too soon. This thread apparently still has some life in it..

 

[nd2023]

And I'll close this rather protracted thread by, once again, quoting from that inimitable professor of popular culture, Robert Christgau, on why dance/techno music fails as a mass-appeal format on the radio:
>>"Inextricable from massive sound systems, mixed in the live moment
by the DJs who are its true auteurs, heightened by communal ecstasy
and the chemical Ecstasy that made it feel real, it was designed to be
accessed exclusively by its subculture. And it was also designed to kid
itself-to leave its claims to magic immune to empirical verification."<<

When I went to France, I noticed several dance stations on the radio. Dance is mass-appeal in Europe. It should be in the US.
An Indian pop station will be popular in India, but only 1 FM station has that format full time in the US. But dance music is mostly in English and has American artists, and is played in nightclubs, why isn't it mass-appeal in the US?

 

[neo11]

And I'll close this rather protracted thread by, once again, quoting from that inimitable professor of popular culture, Robert Christgau, on why dance/techno music fails as a mass-appeal format on the radio:
>>"Inextricable from massive sound systems, mixed in the live moment
by the DJs who are its true auteurs, heightened by communal ecstasy
and the chemical Ecstasy that made it feel real, it was designed to be
accessed exclusively by its subculture. And it was also designed to kid
itself-to leave its claims to magic immune to empirical verification."<<

Actually, I think what this clearly illustrates is the prevalent stereotype about dance music and its listeners. It says nothing else about why the format has not seen a lot of success on the radio in the United States, nor does it explain the wide appeal of the format and music in Europe...unless of course you're prepared to argue that Europe is a continent full of drug addicts who listen to dance music on the radio while they're high...

 

[davideduardo]

Music research leads to the same songs repeated over and over again on most CHRs, which is the reason for low TSL, and the songs that "tested" well burn out quickly. How many CHR hits from 2003 are still played today? Almost none.

Music research lead to the creation of Top 40 in 1952. At that time, American taste had not fragmented into many subsets, and huge percentages of the population like the same songs. In later years in that decade, finding Top 40's (or the sum of top 40's in a market) with 50 shares was not that unusual.

Top 40's used jukebox and 45 sales to determine airplay. Stations played 30 to 40 songs, over and over.

Today, there is no kind of sales statistic that is of any use for radio, as there is no demographic data attached. So stations talk directly to listeners about not just songs they might buy, but ones they like. And ones they dislike, too.

CHR is designed to be a short listening span format. You tune in, you hear all the hits in a short time. Because they are hit driven, and not deep, they cume more than other formats. The cume and the TSL balance. And those characteristics are by design.

The lifespan of a CHR hit today is not a great deal different than that of 30 years ago or more. It's just that we know a little better about the negative side, and can pull songs that stiff or stiff out faster.

 

[MarcR]

And I'll close this rather protracted thread by, once again, quoting from that inimitable professor of popular culture, Robert Christgau, on why dance/techno music fails as a mass-appeal format on the radio:
>>"Inextricable from massive sound systems, mixed in the live moment
by the DJs who are its true auteurs, heightened by communal ecstasy
and the chemical Ecstasy that made it feel real, it was designed to be
accessed exclusively by its subculture. And it was also designed to kid
itself-to leave its claims to magic immune to empirical verification."<<

Dance is mass-appeal in Europe. It should be in the US.

So should soccer, but attempts to bring professional soccer to the States have failed time and time again.

 

[neo11]

And I'll close this rather protracted thread by, once again, quoting from that inimitable professor of popular culture, Robert Christgau, on why dance/techno music fails as a mass-appeal format on the radio:
>>"Inextricable from massive sound systems, mixed in the live moment
by the DJs who are its true auteurs, heightened by communal ecstasy
and the chemical Ecstasy that made it feel real, it was designed to be
accessed exclusively by its subculture. And it was also designed to kid
itself-to leave its claims to magic immune to empirical verification."<<

Dance is mass-appeal in Europe. It should be in the US.

So should soccer, but attempts to bring professional soccer to the States have failed time and time again.

For what it's worth, the MLS has been around for well over a decade now...and while it is still not in the same league (pun intended) as the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc., it seems to have held its own and established itself. It's certainly been far and away more successful than previous attempts to start such a league. And the World Cup which was held in the USA in 1994 was seen as a big success...so much so that the USA will apparently submit a bid for the 2018 or 2022 World Cup.

Getting back to radio though, the point is that perceptions can be changed, and certainly can be with regards to dance music, or, for that matter, other formats as well.

 

[oaktree]

Dance is mass-appeal in Europe. It should be in the US.

Uh, why? You gonna force an unpopular, low mass format down American's throat? I don't think so.

Hey, neo11 ... hang tight, dude. When you get a real job in radio, then you can spout off your perceptive reality with fact, not guesses that have been proven incorrect.  Your problem ... not mine.  And since you have perception that is misguided about personal attacks, look at it this way ... the problem "is what it is." And you've been called out several times on your misinformation.

 

[neo11]

Dance is mass-appeal in Europe. It should be in the US.

Uh, why? You gonna force an unpopular, low mass format down American's throat? I don't think so.

Hey, neo11 ... hang tight, dude. When you get a real job in radio, then you can spout off your perceptive reality with fact, not guesses that have been proven incorrect. Your problem ... not mine. And since you have perception that is misguided about personal attacks, look at it this way ... the problem "is what it is." And you've been called out several times on your misinformation.

I've had a real job in radio, thank you. But continue living in your own alternate reality and continue spouting off insults if you choose.

And nobody said anything about forcing dance or any format down anyone's throat. However, you seem to have the magic ability to put words into people's mouths and then "call them out" on misinformation they never even stated. Good job. I'm sure you're getting very far in your radio career (if you are even in radio) that way.

Finally, nowhere does it say that Radio-Info is a board only for people currently in radio. If that's a problem for you, I'm sure you can go and create your own board only for "radio insiders." You can then agree with each other to your heart's content.

 

[nd2023]

For you haters out there, if you don't like dance music, DON'T LISTEN TO PULSE 87!

I am not a big fan of classical music, I don't complain about WQXR. I don't like religious stations, I complain about them abusing translators. I don't like classic rock, I leave Q104 alone. I'm no hip hop fan, I don't complain about Hot 97 and Power 105. I know 3 words in Spanish, I don't think that Spanish stations don't belong in the US. I dislike most R&B, do you see me complaining about Kiss 98.7 or WBLS? I hate Fresh 102.7, I just don't listen to it. NOW FM has one of the most annoying DJs, I don't make fun of a friend who likes that DJ on NOW. Speaking of annoying DJs, most of us dislike Delilah, but you don't go around making fun of people who enjoy her show. I strongly hate every pirate station, I hate the owners of them only because they break the law, but I can't hate the listeners because they might not know it's an illegal station. I might say negative things about some stations (such as WBAI), but I don't attack the fans of the format.
I've been picked on in high school for being the only dance music fan. Some of the same people who picked on me are now asking me what the hottest dance songs are.

Go ahead and say negative things about Pulse 87. Adults don't pick on other people because their music tastes are different.
You have to admire a company that can make something out of nothing, without Mega Media's dedication to dance music, the 87.7 frequency would be unknown to most of us if it had brokered programming, we would think "cool, a TV station's acting as a radio station" but it wouldn't have thousands of #1 preset spots in the New York metro. They found a way to legally fit another station in New York City, unlike the pirates who just turn on their transmitter and jam any frequency they want.

 

[neo11]

For you haters out there, if you don't like dance music, DON'T LISTEN TO PULSE 87!

I am not a big fan of classical music, I don't complain about WQXR. I don't like religious stations, I complain about them abusing translators. I don't like classic rock, I leave Q104 alone. I'm no hip hop fan, I don't complain about Hot 97 and Power 105. I know 3 words in Spanish, I don't think that Spanish stations don't belong in the US. I dislike most R&B, do you see me complaining about Kiss 98.7 or WBLS? I hate Fresh 102.7, I just don't listen to it. NOW FM has one of the most annoying DJs, I don't make fun of a friend who likes that DJ on NOW. Speaking of annoying DJs, most of us dislike Delilah, but you don't go around making fun of people who enjoy her show. I strongly hate every pirate station, I hate the owners of them only because they break the law, but I can't hate the listeners because they might not know it's an illegal station. I might say negative things about some stations (such as WBAI), but I don't attack the fans of the format.
I've been picked on in high school for being the only dance music fan. Some of the same people who picked on me are now asking me what the hottest dance songs are.

Go ahead and say negative things about Pulse 87. Adults don't pick on other people because their music tastes are different.
You have to admire a company that can make something out of nothing, without Mega Media's dedication to dance music, the 87.7 frequency would be unknown to most of us if it had brokered programming, we would think "cool, a TV station's acting as a radio station" but it wouldn't have thousands of #1 preset spots in the New York metro. They found a way to legally fit another station in New York City, unlike the pirates who just turn on their transmitter and jam any frequency they want.

Thank you. Not even the much-maligned, "leftist" WBAI has seen the amount of "hate" that Pulse has seen on this board, from people who claim to be "realists" and objective...and insult anyone who dares to disagree with them. But you said it correctly: adults don't pick on other people because of their differing music tastes...or for differences of opinion, for that matter. An adult discussion on a radio industry message board...there's an idea!

 

[MarcR]

This thread has become to resemble a debate between atheists and theologians. Intellectually honest theologians will acknowledge that their discipline had abandoned a century ago reason as proof for the existence of "God" because in reality it doesn't buttress their case. I suppose then that the current dance detractors are the 'atheists" in this discussion since the theologian side can't or won't accept reason!

 

[oaktree]

And nobody said anything about forcing dance or any format down anyone's throat.

I asked the question ... how are you gonna do it, "ram a low mass format down American's throat?" I didn't say anyone else said it.

 

[Jeffrey]

And nobody said anything about forcing dance or any format down anyone's throat.

I asked the question ... how are you gonna do it, "ram a low mass format down American's throat?" I didn't say anyone else said it.

It's not a matter of raming it down people's throats. It's a matter of exposure. Dance is low mass appeal in the US. because you don't hear it anywhere other than in some clubs.
In this country hip, hop and thug culture is king. That's what radio shoves down our throats.

 

[davideduardo]

As for Arbitron in rural areas, the ratings are skewed. I bet that only one person in the Moapa Valley got an Arbitron diary, and they don't listen to 94.5. If that person did get an Arbitron diary, 94.5 would be in the ratings and the cume would be high. Maybe when they eventually turn on their translator on the Strip, the ratings will increase.

Moapa Valley is in Clark County. The population is approximately 6,000 persons, or about 5000 persons 12+.

The Las Vegas market is 1.9 million, 1.6 million being 12+. There are 2400 diaries. Each diary represents 666 persons. So the Moapa Valley should get about 4 to 5 diaries.

The four Zip codes that include portions of the valley also cover areas with about 9,500 additional people, all surrounding the central Moapa Valley. The total population is, then 14,391 persons. In Winter 2009, Arbitron placed 24 diaries in these 4 Zip codes, for a per person diary value (PPDV) of 599 persons, meaning they slightly oversampled the Moapa Valley.

Now, try posting something that is fact, not mistaken personal feelings.

 

[davideduardo]

That's what radio shoves down our throats.

No, radio reflects taste. It does not make it. Radio can create interest in artists and songs in a genre, but the genre develops as part of a cultural change or interest.

 

[lalumia]

In this country hip, hop and thug culture is king. That's what radio shoves down our throats.



yes, all those Britney,Jonas Bros and Miley Cyrus records on Z100 leading us all to gangsta paradise...
dance records have been given shots at CHR time and time again...not one of them has ever gone to #1, most of them fail to crack the national Top 40(or even chart on the Hot 100 at all), but still CHR drops one or two into the mix from time to time...
perhaps they're trying to brainwash the Britney/Jonas fans into liking something that they clearly don't like?

 

[thefoxxman]

..just out of curiosity, what is the Phoenix dance station? I thought they changed to hip-hop?

It was KNRJ (Energy 92.7/101.1). They flipped last Halloween.

Well, I knew that, but the way everyone was talking like it flipped BACK to dance... thought I might have missed something.

 

[TonySantiago]

: That's all I can say about this thread.

NO...there is something more. One thing that is OVERLOOKED out of all of this yet someone tapped it on the Dance forum. MARKETING!

I've said this ad nauseum on the coalition MySpace and other places that this music has to be marketed better to the masses. I hate the fact that I would check out an album cover and not find pictures of artists on them. Instead some covers would have a hottie in a bikini sucking on a lollipop. Not that I mind that, lol, but if our music wants to get further out there then the labels have to stop making the artists "invisible".

When I was at the Winter Music Conference (for those not in the know, a dance music seminar/convention) I remember going to a panel discussion regarding licensing and getting the music out onto film and TV. If dance music can make it into some commercials or get used as part of a soundtrack of a movie, that gets more exposure to the masses since people of all walks of life DO watch television and go to theaters.

It's a matter of exploring different "avenues" outside of radio if dance is going to make some sort of wave. That's how you develop the "exposure". Once that can happen and the popularity rises from it, then you can see more radio stations doing this.

Once again, since some folks STILL want to beat this up further (dance fans INCLUDED...yeah, I said it), people are going to hate from all angles, and that is fine as long as people can respect. And I think for the most part, everyone does respect (except MarcR who wants to continually "dredge" quotes off of writers and keep this going...thank you for noting one of those earlier JP!) The bigger picture, it's MORE than just trying to save a company whose ship is sinking. It's about change from WITHIN and a concerted effort of everyone involved in the dance music community to make that change happen.

I will say it....LET THIS THREAD DIE. No one's opinions are going to change out of this, not from either side. So why fight "nothing"?

Go ahead MarcR, quote Aristotle here......and then we can close this.