ABC/Cumulus

[Phil Boyce]

B.B. Lean. Is that a real name or a screen name?

Not saying you're responsible, but Levin has been 'crammed-down' to MANY stations through the Hannity affiliation. I've talked to a good number of program directors who say they HAD to take Levin or they were afraid they'd lose Hannity to the competition. Is that not cramming down?

Be specific. Name call letters and I will answer any situation you want. You need to do a search on this topic because I have been over this accusation too many times to remember. Some really interesting back and forth, however.

When I say we are not big on cram downs, I mean that my company has not felt the need to start ordering Citadel owned stations to take our syndicated shows. Maybe some gentle persuasion, but in the case of Imus every station that took him wanted him. I hope we can maintain that position.

As for your direct accusation above, that simply is not true. We have had a few situations which I can count on one hand, where a competing station in the market offered to take Levin if they could get Hannity who was already in the market. In every case without exception we offered the existing Hannity affiliate the chance to keep Hannity if they would take Levin. They had first crack and first option. Some of them did so...and some of them did not. Panama City, Florida is a great example of a great station that chose to keep Hannity and add Levin live at 5-7pm. When I spoke to the GM there he had never paid much attention to Levin. He now is a very happy camper, the numbers are great, and Mark has developed into a local star.

The other example, which the previous thread was about, was in Wilmington. We offered WDEL the chance to keep Hannity live if they would add Levin at night. They said no, so we moved both to WILM. In the first rating book, WILM beat WDEL slightly. Not sure if that will continue, but both stations got what they asked for. WILM got two great shows, and WDEL opted to go live and local. I am not sure of the bad thing that happened there.

If you want to reveal the call letters of the PD's you talked to I would be happy to address those situations also. I don't think you will because this is a dead horse.



pb

 

[B.B. Lean]

Oh it's a screen name. I hope you're not one of those people who doesn't understand why some people would post here anonymously, and use that as an excuse to dismiss their comments.

And no, I'm not going to go airing other program directors dirty laundry. People talk to me in confidence. If you're going to dismiss it because of that, well, OK. No big deal. I trust my friends and colleagues. I respect you, but I don't know you, and I understand that you've got more to represent than just yourself.

Look, I'm not of the opinion that 'cramming-down' is necessarily all bad. It's a business, and it's in your best interest to get as many clears of Levin as possible. Companies use leverage all the time, and I'm not one that gets all worked up over it.

What does annoy me is how every company vehemently denies ever using their leverage to get shows, or worse, their lame-a$$ vignettes and features cleared (America's Most Wanted ring a bell?). Nobody would EVER admit that they crammed something down onto a station, but it happens every day, in every market. Just be honest about it.

There are worse offenders out there than ABC/Citadel and the Levin/Hannity combo, but based on my experience and the anecdotes I hear quite frequently, it's disingenuous at best to claim that your company doesn't engage in cram-downs.

 

[Julius Leonard Marx]

"Cramming down" may be a little strong. But Hannity gives an affiliate rep an extra bargaining chip when talking to stations about Levin. I somehow doubt Levin would have nearly as many stations without Hannity as a stable-mate. It may be savvy bargaining and I can understand why a PD wouldn't appreciate it much. Credit where credit is due: Savage does pretty well running on his own power.

 

[DaleGriffin]

Hell, Savage does ok considering the ridiculous out of show inventory he requires.

 

[B.B. Lean]

Savage is TRN's Hannity/Limbaugh. The show is in high demand, so they use that leverage to cram down Jerry Doyle or Rusty Humphries, or get live (or better) clears for Ingraham.

They're another company that acts all aghast if you dare suggest they engage in cramming down. In fact, they may be the worst offender.

But they all do it to some extent...

 

[DaleGriffin]

Let's be clear here,

To "cram down" means what? Force a station to take Levin or lose Hannity?

The only way this happens is if another station wants both. I do not see what is wrong with that. If you were repping shows and could clear more than two by moving one of another station and that other station would not clear both shows what should you do? What would you do? If you are the original station that had Hannity and you let this happen, then that is on you. Also, most of the time they are looking for clearnces and are flexible about whether it is live or not. This conversation is as ridiculous as the "Rick and Bubba are sellouts conversation." And like that issue this all boils down to jealousy.

 

[B.B. Lean]

Cram downs typically mean that a syndicator uses its leverage to coerce a station to taking more product that they don't necessarily want or need. In my experience, it's never an outright "take X or we'll pull Y," or "if you want this show, we need you to clear that show," but it's implied enough that stations feel pressured into it. I'm convinced that Levin wouldn't have near the number of clears without the Hannity leverage. Same can be said for a lot of other shows. There are 3-5 big dogs in syndication, and the companies use those shows to get their 'B' talent (or various vignettes that are nothing but inventory-leechers) cleared.

And I agree with you - I don't really have a problem with it. What irritates me is how these companies act all offended if you call it for what it is, but are quick to criticize other syndicates for using the same tactics.

Again, just be honest. We're all pros here, and all programmers have had to deal with it. Stop pretending your company is innocent, because none are.

 

[Holland Cooke]

"OK, lookit. Everybody 'gets' the 'cramdown' thing..."

So what happened to "QUACK QUACK???"

 

[Phil Boyce]

Holland: We are running the quack quack sporadically. A little goes a long way. But if you like it so much I will increase rotation.

As for Mr. Lean...or whoever you are:

What does annoy me is how every company vehemently denies ever using their leverage to get shows, or worse, their lame-a$$ vignettes and features cleared (America's Most Wanted ring a bell?). Nobody would EVER admit that they crammed something down onto a station, but it happens every day, in every market. Just be honest about it.

I was honest about it. I gave specific examples with specific call letters. You seem incapable of matching my honesty. You hide behind an anonymous screen name and claim to have heard from a lot of PD's about cram down tactics that you can't name, and can't prove. Fortunately for me, I know every single station Mark is on, and I know how we got him there. I am more than happy to explain every single one of them if you would just grow a pair and mention call letters. No names...just what station you THINK was a cram down. Love to hear it. As I predicted, you could not and would not do so.

There are worse offenders out there than ABC/Citadel and the Levin/Hannity combo, but based on my experience and the anecdotes I hear quite frequently, it's disingenuous at best to claim that your company doesn't engage in cram-downs.

So I am supposed to answer these vague accusations and "anecdotes" and just roll over and admit...."OK...you got me...we cram down....OK? Happy now?" Come on BB, I won't do that cause I know the truth. I explain Wilmington. That is NOT a cram down because the station that has Hannity and Levin wants them both. The station that does not have them did not want them both.

I am not sure what you are talking about with America's Most Wanted, but if anybody at my company ever threatened a station with a Hannity cancellation if they did not take it, I would love to know who did it. If it did happen it was not me, and not my team doing it. And if the station had called me I would have made that threat go away.

I stand by my comments, and until Mr. Lean can produce ONE SINGLE STATION...as evidence of a cram down, I think I won this round. But I will wait patiently for his proof that I am wrong....while the theme music to "Jeopardy" softly plays in the background.

pb

 

[B.B. Lean]

You want call letters but no names? What's the difference? Like you can't figure out the who the PD is? C'mon.

I'm sorry, I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. You can 'win this round' if you want - I didn't realize we were playing a game. But I am surprised (ok, not really) how defensive you are about the subject.

That is NOT a cram down because the station that has Hannity and Levin wants them both. The station that does not have them did not want them both.

OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hannity already cleared in the market - and you moved him to a station that agreed to clear Levin as well? Which would lead me to believe, at some point, the original Hannity affiliate was told something to the effect of "Listen, this other station wants Hannity, AND will clear Levin, so unless you can clear Levin, we're going to go ahead and pull Hannity."

In my book - unless the original station was already planning on cancelling Hannity - that's a cram down.

It's irrelevant that both stations are happy with the outcome - of course the original station isn't going to say "Geez, we really got screwed and now everyone's going to listen to our competition" - the fact of the matter is that station was forced to make a program change they either didn't want to make or weren't ready to make because you guys couldn't clear Levin on the other station on his own merits. You needed to offer more value to get Levin cleared.

ONCE AGAIN - there's nothing inherently wrong with this. I don't understand why you have to try to spin it as something it's not, though.

That is NOT a cram down because the station that has Hannity and Levin wants them both. The station that does not have them did not want them both.

So unless you want them both, you get neither, right? That certainly seems to be what the second sentence implies. Which... is a cram down of Levin.

Unless you're getting a lot of calls from stations saying "Gee, I really want Levin, but do I have to take Hannity too?"

Which I seriously doubt.

 

[B.B. Lean]

Mr. Boyce:

In the example you used above, was the 'new' affiliate willing to clear Levin without Hannity?

Or was it a case of "we want to steal Hannity from the competition, and we'll clear Levin if that's what it takes?"

 

[DaleGriffin]

So unless you want them both, you get neither, right? That certainly seems to be what the second sentence implies. Which... is a cram down of Levin.

Not really, the station is not being forced to take anything.

What if you are selling avails during Rush Limbaugh and you have one Rush avail left and then some local afternoon show's avails left on the same station? If you can sell the Rush avail to advertiser X or the Rush avail and a local show's avail to advertiser Y which would you do? Are you craming down the local show?

 

[B.B. Lean]

If you're pulling already purchased advertising because they won't spend more money to advertise in a program they don't want to be in, then yeah... it's kinda the same thing. If you're saying - you can't advertise in this program unless you also advertise in this other, less desirable program - then yeah, you're engaging in similar tactics.

Which, for the umpteenth time, is fine with me. Just be honest about it.

 

[Julius Leonard Marx]

In that situation in Delaware that has been mentioned, as I recall the incumbent Hannity station was willing to take Levin on delay. Hannity was yanked and the new station is running Levin delayed anyway. That's strange.

 

[Slant]

Totally off topic...but I'm not privy to NYC arbitron data....how did Curtis and Sliwa do up against the IMAN when he was on the FAN?

 

[Julius Leonard Marx]

Totally off topic...but I'm not privy to NYC arbitron data....how did Curtis and Sliwa do up against the IMAN when he was on the FAN?

Yes, it is. And they kicked his butt. Several discussions underway on the New York board.

 

[Holland Cooke]

Which is a bigger bargain right now? Real estate? Or Citadel stock?

HC StockWatch still flashing a BUY on CDL.
In-at-2, out-at-3.
Thank me later...

 

[Julius Leonard Marx]

Re: Which is a bigger bargain right now? Real estate? Or Citadel stock?

HC StockWatch still flashing a BUY on CDL.
In-at-2, out-at-3.
Thank me later...

A year ago Citadel Broadcasting was around 10. Three years ago it was above 15. Five years ago it was pushing 25. Citadel is rated as under-performing it's sector and brokerage firm analysts rate it either sell or hold. Don't hold your breath waiting for Citadel to see $3 again.

Meanwhile in the same period Disney has gone from around 15 to almost 35 now. Selling off a radio division seems to do wonders for the stock price.

 

[Slant]

Holland...how about WON? The stock is hovering around 2 bucks a share

 

[Phil Boyce]

B.B Lean says:

But I am surprised (ok, not really) how defensive you are about the subject.

So you come to this board with an anonymous name and you throw around accusations like ABC crams Levin down lots of stations throats. I get annoyed and ask you to name ONE station. You can't but then you accuse me of getting defensive. You are a spineless jellyfish who likes to throw around accusations, without the guts to back them up. I post here using my REAL name and challenged you to name one single station where you think this has occurred. You won't claiming you are protecting the PD. From WHAT? What am I gonna do to the poor guy? I have no power over him. You won't name call letters here because you don't have any, not because you are protecting sources.

The one station you wanted to talk about was in Wilmington. That was the station I MENTIONED. Come up with one on your own. Go head...with all those stations out there forced to take Levin who did not want him surely you can come up with ONE SET OF CALL LETTERS. I continue to wait while the music from jeopardy softly players in the background.

I don't really get defensive about this, I get offensive. This is because my team worked way too hard to get Mark on 150 stations and become the fastest growing talk show in America. I go on the offensive, because this accusation is not only untrue but insulting to Mark and the affiliate team. So if somebody like B.B. Lean wants to throw down the gauntlet here, I just expect him to put up some facts....ok how about ONE fact.

Still waiting.

pb