About that whole digital signal thing...

[Garrett]

Lately, there has been much talk on this board about digital signals, networks going to second channel digital fequencies, and stations turning off their analogue signals.

As a result, I decided to go out and do a bit of informal research. I can't afford cable, but I really want to watch this new WeatherPlus channel that KCBD TV is broadcasting, and since there is not much to watch in Lubbock on some occasions, I figured a digital tuner decoder might be nice to have. Recently, we've heard about talk in Congress of each family being reimbursed for half of the cost of these new converters. And, the information I had read from the AP was that these converters would cost somewhere in the $50.00 range. So I went down to the local Sears and asked. Here is what the salesperson at the TV/Electronics department told me (paraphrased):

"We currently do not sell digital decoders, nor do we expect to see them in the near future. If you want one you will have to buy them from the internet. Otherwise, the only way you can watch digital stations in this market is if you pay for digital cable, satellite, or buy a TV that already has a built in digital decoder. There are currently no digital tuner ready TV's that are smaller than 27 inches."

He then showed me a 27 inch Toshiba that was SD (Standard Definition) that was digital tuner ready that was about $400, and this was the cheapest one he had. But I asked him "well, I guess it will be cheaper to get a digital converter when they do come out," to which he replied "Why? they will be $400, that's how much they go for." He laughed when I asked him about the $50.00 price range. He also laughed when I told him about the fact that analogue signals need to go away by 2009, and said; "nah, that won't happen for another 9 years, at least."

So, there you have it.
Anyone wish to chime in on this? Seems to be conflicting information out there. Either he had it wrong, or I had it wrong. Or, perhaps we both did?

Anyone?
(And please, no technical jargon engineer babble...)

p.s. This was the Sears store at the South Plains Mall in Lubbock Texas.

 

[Mark_Ericson]

You can't go to Sears and expect decent help. Really. I've been to Sears and find that I know far more than they do.

Before Circuit City here closed, they had open-box tuners (Zenith HDV420, to be exact) selling for $110. Radio Shack had $90 tuners at one time.

And yes, the transition is happening in 2009, as it is now the law that it HAS to happen.

If you have a Best Buy or Circuit City, check there. I find it's easier to find DirecTV/OTA combos rather than stand-alones, and they function just fine without the satellite (don't know about the price difference though).

But he is correct, only digital TV's over 36" have tuners required, and very few below that do. After March 2007, all TVs over 13" (or maybe all TVs period?) manufactured will have to have digital tuners. You might be better off waiting until then.

I think that covers everything in your message...

- Trip<P ID="signature">______________
Visit my website, www.rabbitears.info! It's eventually going to be your one resource for television info! Digital television, histories, and technical information for the entire USA from one source!</P>

 

[Garrett]

> You can't go to Sears and expect decent help. Really. I've
> been to Sears and find that I know far more than they do.
>
> Before Circuit City here closed, they had open-box tuners
> (Zenith HDV420, to be exact) selling for $110. Radio Shack
> had $90 tuners at one time.
>
> And yes, the transition is happening in 2009, as it is now
> the law that it HAS to happen.
>
> If you have a Best Buy or Circuit City, check there. I find
> it's easier to find DirecTV/OTA combos rather than
> stand-alones, and they function just fine without the
> satellite (don't know about the price difference though).
>
> But he is correct, only digital TV's over 36" have tuners
> required, and very few below that do. After March 2007, all
> TVs over 13" (or maybe all TVs period?) manufactured will
> have to have digital tuners. You might be better off
> waiting until then.
>
> I think that covers everything in your message...
>
> - Trip
>
Thanks for the info! I think the last part was most helpful. I can wait another 12 months...

Let's keep the thread going though. Anyone else?

 

[w9wi]

> to see them in the near future. If you want one you will
> have to buy them from the internet. Otherwise, the only way

> "well, I guess it will be cheaper to get a digital converter
> when they do come out," to which he replied "Why? they will
> be $400, that's how much they go for." He laughed when I
> asked him about the $50.00 price range. He also laughed when
> I told him about the fact that analogue signals need to go
> away by 2009, and said; "nah, that won't happen for another
> 9 years, at least."

I'd say that's better information than I would have expected to get from a TV salesperson!

- I have seen the boxes at Radio Shack, at Wal-Mart (though I think they've discontinued the USDTV box they were selling), and at Circuit City. Normal prices have run between $200 and $300 though Radio Shack ran a clearance of their model for $90 for awhile. Availability may indeed be spotty.

- My box indeed came over the Internet, a Humax bought through Amazon.com. Works pretty well. When you turn it off, it continuously scans for new channels. (it's amusing to get up in the morning & see your TV was DXing overnight<grin>!)

- I think there's about a 50/50 chance of prices dropping dramatically as the deadline approaches, people realize they must have these boxes to continue watching TV, and the volume of sales skyrockets. (causing economies of scale to kick in) Of course, the laws of supply and demand will work in the other direction!

- Congress has mandated an end to over-the-air analog in February 2009. Of course, Congress does have the option of changing its mind! (but most observers doubt they will)

 

[moedog1]

I support digital/HD TV, but I find it difficult to believe broadcast tv will make the transition in 2009. As of today, the vast majority of TVs sold are still analog only. This the the FCC's fault---all TVs sold should have been required to be digital-ready years ago. Also, it has been found that digital broadcasts do not reach many rural areas, even with many of the new digital tv channels broadcasting at full power (I realize many are not yet full power). THis could perhaps be solved if the FCC allowed digital stations to broadcast at higher power, but the FCC has not even addressed that. COme 2008, there is going to be a firestorm of objection to the shuting down of analog transmitters. Many people will object to having to connect an additional box to their TVs. True, cable and satelite viewers will not be directly affected by the shutdown, since their providers will convert the signal for them, but what happens when hurricanes or ice-storms disable their cable systems, and the old rabitt ears or coathangers won't work to bring in emergency information?

 

[Markxxx]

Trip said the important word here....

by 2000 all TV MANUFACTURED. It does NOT SAY SOLD. There is a BIG difference. They will still be allowed to sell the old TVs in stock etc etc...

They should've stopped selling analog sets or required dual converters by six years ago, by 2006

Congress is eager to have the digital spectrum. And retrospect this whole thing was done half ass.

Outside of sports and nature TV there is really no need to HDTV at all. Let's face it the quality of drama, comedy or reality TV doesn't get better because it's clear. Digital TV has the advantage of offering more channels. But unless they do HDTV they are essentially getting 2-5 additional channel free.

In fact HTDV is expensive because analog TV allowed the use of fake woods and makeups to make inferior product look good. Digital brings out the flaws.

Another thing is that can upconvert programs. So you think you're getting HDTV when all you're getting is an upcoverted signal. There are so many different types it easy to rip people off.

Right now TV station find it expensive to run duplicate signals. So the DTV signal is less. In other cases the digital signal isn't located by the analog transmitter.

I don't see Congress abandoning analog TV because people will simply VOTE people out of office. As I said before you think gay marriage is a hot topic, abortion is a hot topic, try taking away people's TV and you will REALLY see the politicians fly out of office.

By the way what is the status of Digital TV in New York City. Since the Twin Towers fell.

 

[BoardmanDJ]

> Lately, there has been much talk on this board about digital
> signals, networks going to second channel digital
> fequencies, and stations turning off their analogue signals.
>
>
> As a result, I decided to go out and do a bit of informal
> research. I can't afford cable, but I really want to watch
> this new WeatherPlus channel that KCBD TV is broadcasting,
> and since there is not much to watch in Lubbock on some
> occasions, I figured a digital tuner decoder might be nice
> to have. Recently, we've heard about talk in Congress of
> each family being reimbursed for half of the cost of these
> new converters. And, the information I had read from the AP
> was that these converters would cost somewhere in the $50.00
> range. So I went down to the local Sears and asked. Here is
> what the salesperson at the TV/Electronics department told
> me (paraphrased):
>
> "We currently do not sell digital decoders, nor do we expect
> to see them in the near future. If you want one you will
> have to buy them from the internet. Otherwise, the only way
> you can watch digital stations in this market is if you pay
> for digital cable, satellite, or buy a TV that already has a
> built in digital decoder. There are currently no digital
> tuner ready TV's that are smaller than 27 inches."
>
> He then showed me a 27 inch Toshiba that was SD (Standard
> Definition) that was digital tuner ready that was about
> $400, and this was the cheapest one he had. But I asked him
> "well, I guess it will be cheaper to get a digital converter
> when they do come out," to which he replied "Why? they will
> be $400, that's how much they go for." He laughed when I
> asked him about the $50.00 price range. He also laughed when
> I told him about the fact that analogue signals need to go
> away by 2009, and said; "nah, that won't happen for another
> 9 years, at least."
>
> So, there you have it.
> Anyone wish to chime in on this? Seems to be conflicting
> information out there. Either he had it wrong, or I had it
> wrong. Or, perhaps we both did?
>
> Anyone?
> (And please, no technical jargon engineer babble...)
>
> p.s. This was the Sears store at the South Plains Mall in
> Lubbock Texas.
>


Wow! The guy really needs to update his facts. In no uncertain terms Analog will go off the air in early 2009. It may be as late as may, but it has been mandated as law.

Depending on how far you live from the stations you want to pick up you can try going to Ebay and finding an older unit. Genrally you'll see Model numbers like T-151 3500 4200, etc. That first number tends to be the 'generation'. The older boxes that start with 1 are 1st generation. They aren't as selective and tend to ignore signals that aren't strong and clear, without interference.

Search using LG LST and you'll find the popular line of LG models. For some reason LG stopped making the 4200a's so they went from being $200 to beyond $400 in some cases because they are the latest and greatest. Something like a Samsung SIR-T151 will gor for $70.

You may want to consider a card for your computer instead. A Fushion HD card can be had for $100-ish. Of course they go higher if you want extra perks. The FusionHDTV5 would be the 5th (and latest) generation card. It picks up things that my old digital box couldn't. I had an old Samsung SIR-T151 with a directional antenna. Had to aim toward the station. The fusion doesn't seem to care and finds signals both directions. I live in an area where two stations are in the opposite direction of town than the others, and both directions they are way way out...so an antenna is helpful. In a large metro, that may not be the case.

Antennaweb.org has a zip code thingy (non technical term!) that will tell you what channels are which direction.

 

[BoardmanDJ]

I think it's also imporant to note that the federal mandate is for DIGITAL and not HD. HD should be considered an extra perk of digital.
Digital still has the advantage of a crystal clear signal. Not all program will(nor should they necessarily be) HD.
There are some ED (enhanced definition) sets out that pull in the digital signal but (and this is very simplisticly stated) ignore the extra HD part.

Bottom line...much better picture. No need for "Weather cam 8" to be HD though.


> Trip said the important word here....
>
> by 2000 all TV MANUFACTURED. It does NOT SAY SOLD. There is
> a BIG difference. They will still be allowed to sell the old
> TVs in stock etc etc...
>
> They should've stopped selling analog sets or required dual
> converters by six years ago, by 2006
>
> Congress is eager to have the digital spectrum. And
> retrospect this whole thing was done half ass.
>
> Outside of sports and nature TV there is really no need to
> HDTV at all. Let's face it the quality of drama, comedy or
> reality TV doesn't get better because it's clear. Digital TV
> has the advantage of offering more channels. But unless they
> do HDTV they are essentially getting 2-5 additional channel
> free.
>
> In fact HTDV is expensive because analog TV allowed the use
> of fake woods and makeups to make inferior product look
> good. Digital brings out the flaws.
>
> Another thing is that can upconvert programs. So you think
> you're getting HDTV when all you're getting is an upcoverted
> signal. There are so many different types it easy to rip
> people off.
>
> Right now TV station find it expensive to run duplicate
> signals. So the DTV signal is less. In other cases the
> digital signal isn't located by the analog transmitter.
>
> I don't see Congress abandoning analog TV because people
> will simply VOTE people out of office. As I said before you
> think gay marriage is a hot topic, abortion is a hot topic,
> try taking away people's TV and you will REALLY see the
> politicians fly out of office.
>
> By the way what is the status of Digital TV in New York
> City. Since the Twin Towers fell.
>

 

[Tom_Desmond]

> Outside of sports and nature TV there is really no need to
> HDTV at all. Let's face it the quality of drama, comedy or
> reality TV doesn't get better because it's clear.

I respectfully disagree with this. Shows like "Lost" and "Smallville" look way better in high definition versus the standard definition broadcast.

 

[Mark_Ericson]

> They should've stopped selling analog sets or required dual
> converters by six years ago, by 2006
>
> Congress is eager to have the digital spectrum. And
> retrospect this whole thing was done half ass.

Agreed, and I know many in the industry who agree.

> Outside of sports and nature TV there is really no need to
> HDTV at all. Let's face it the quality of drama, comedy or
> reality TV doesn't get better because it's clear. Digital TV
> has the advantage of offering more channels. But unless they
> do HDTV they are essentially getting 2-5 additional channel
> free.

I find HDTV to make anything look better, really. I love watching WRAL's HD News, I watch much of Fox's HD programming... it really does make it look clearer and more 'real' I think.

> I don't see Congress abandoning analog TV because people
> will simply VOTE people out of office. As I said before you
> think gay marriage is a hot topic, abortion is a hot topic,
> try taking away people's TV and you will REALLY see the
> politicians fly out of office.

Why do you think there's a subsidy for digital boxes?

> By the way what is the status of Digital TV in New York
> City. Since the Twin Towers fell.

Most of the stations that weren't on the ESB are back on the air from there.

WCBS-DT 56 was on the ESB to start with, and is still there. They're sharing their antenna with most other broadcasters. Doing 349 kW.

WNBC-DT 28 is doing 200 kW from the WCBS antenna.

WNYW-DT 44 is doing 246 kW from their own antenna, with a CP to boost to 990 kW DA, still from their own antenna.

WABC-DT 45 is doing 219 kW from the WCBS antenna. They have a backup sitting on the Conde Nast ready to do 399 kW on demand.

WWOR-DT 38 is doing 170 kW from the WCBS antenna.

WPIX-DT 33 is doing 160 kW from the WCBS antenna.

WNET-DT 61 is doing 12.4 kW (not a typo) from the WCBS antenna.

WNYE-DT 24 is still not back on the air, but they were on the ESB to start with (they shut it off for emergency communications equipment or something).

WPXN-DT 30 is doing 100 kW DA from the ESB, on its own antenna.

WXTV-DT 40 is doing 300 kW DA from the ESB, its original home.

WNJU-DT 36 is doing 14.89 kW from Near WNJN in New Jersey (is that First Mountain? I don't know).

WFUT-DT 53 is doing 310 kW DA from the Conde Nast. Its analog recently moved there from the ESB as well.

And I think that's all the WTC/ESB television stations.

- Trip<P ID="signature">______________
Visit my website, www.rabbitears.info! It's eventually going to be your one resource for television info! Digital television, histories, and technical information for the entire USA from one source!</P>

 

[Nock]

>
> Outside of sports and nature TV there is really no need to
> HDTV at all. Let's face it the quality of drama, comedy or
> reality TV doesn't get better because it's clear. Digital TV
> has the advantage of offering more channels. But unless they
> do HDTV they are essentially getting 2-5 additional channel
> free.
>
> What are you missing? I actually find myself watching shows that I would never have watched before because they are in high def. I find it miserable to go back to an analog signal especially on a high def set.

Saw in this thread about the need for analog in a situation when cable systems etc go out. I am picking up the HD channels with cheap old rabbit ears crystal clear until Direct TV gets my locals on the dish.

Nock

 

[fybush]

> WNYE-DT 24 is still not back on the air, but they were on
> the ESB to start with (they shut it off for emergency
> communications equipment or something).

I think WNYE-DT was/is on the WNYE-FM tower at Bronx Tech. There was no DTV equipment in the WNYE-TV transmitter room at Empire when I was in there a year ago, nor any sign that there had ever been any there. (WNET used the back room at WNYE for its first temporary ESB analog transmitter before getting a room of its own for analog and digital.) They do have a CP for Empire.

> WPXN-DT 30 is doing 100 kW DA from the ESB, on its own
> antenna.

...shared with WPXN-TV 31, right under the 102nd floor observation windows and very easily seen from the 86th floor observation deck.

> WXTV-DT 40 is doing 300 kW DA from the ESB, its original
> home.

...though it wasn't on the air at all prior to 9/11.

> WNJU-DT 36 is doing 14.89 kW from Near WNJN in New Jersey
> (is that First Mountain? I don't know).

It's just down the road from First Mountain - their STA site is the facility at 416 Eagle Rock Ave. that was the original channel 68 site (WBTB, etc.), then was used as a temporary site for WPXN after 9/11. They have a CP to go to Empire.

New York will be an interesting testbed for DTV once the integrated receivers really start getting out in the marketplace. Cable penetration in the city is still relatively low, and the urban canyons of Manhattan are multipath hell. Many New Yorkers have suffered for years, if not decades, with ghosty, smeary signals. DTV will be an eye-opener for them!<P ID="signature">______________
Tower Site Calendar 2006 ON SALE! - <a target="_blank" href=http://www.fybush.com/nerw.html#calendar>www.fybush.com</a></P>

 

[trusty]

> - Congress has mandated an end to over-the-air analog in
> February 2009. Of course, Congress does have the option of
> changing its mind! (but most observers doubt they will)

2009. Isn't that when Hillary is supposed to be in the White House. It will be the greatest challenge a president has ever faced. It will.

 

[JeeperOne]

Hi everyone:

> You can't go to Sears and expect decent help. Really. I've
> been to Sears and find that I know far more than they do.

Really dude! You may as well have walked into K-MART and spoke with the people there. LOL!

Cheers

Pat<P ID="signature">______________

http://patspodcast.blogspot.com/
Radio? Uhh.....What's THAT?? </P>

 

[arklatexradioguy]

Go to antennaweb and do a search for 75455 Mount Pleasant Texas according to the site they can get 9 analog stations right now and O so after 2009 the only way you can watch TV is to PAY for it you don't think these people and other in towns like this are not gonna throw a fit. Can't wait to hear the outcry on this






digital stations > > Lately, there has been much talk on this board about
> digital
> > signals, networks going to second channel digital
> > fequencies, and stations turning off their analogue
> signals.
> >
> >
> > As a result, I decided to go out and do a bit of informal
> > research. I can't afford cable, but I really want to watch
>
> > this new WeatherPlus channel that KCBD TV is broadcasting,
>
> > and since there is not much to watch in Lubbock on some
> > occasions, I figured a digital tuner decoder might be nice
>
> > to have. Recently, we've heard about talk in Congress of
> > each family being reimbursed for half of the cost of these
>
> > new converters. And, the information I had read from the
> AP
> > was that these converters would cost somewhere in the
> $50.00
> > range. So I went down to the local Sears and asked. Here
> is
> > what the salesperson at the TV/Electronics department told
>
> > me (paraphrased):
> >
> > "We currently do not sell digital decoders, nor do we
> expect
> > to see them in the near future. If you want one you will
> > have to buy them from the internet. Otherwise, the only
> way
> > you can watch digital stations in this market is if you
> pay
> > for digital cable, satellite, or buy a TV that already has
> a
> > built in digital decoder. There are currently no digital
> > tuner ready TV's that are smaller than 27 inches."
> >
> > He then showed me a 27 inch Toshiba that was SD (Standard
> > Definition) that was digital tuner ready that was about
> > $400, and this was the cheapest one he had. But I asked
> him
> > "well, I guess it will be cheaper to get a digital
> converter
> > when they do come out," to which he replied "Why? they
> will
> > be $400, that's how much they go for." He laughed when I
> > asked him about the $50.00 price range. He also laughed
> when
> > I told him about the fact that analogue signals need to go
>
> > away by 2009, and said; "nah, that won't happen for
> another
> > 9 years, at least."
> >
> > So, there you have it.
> > Anyone wish to chime in on this? Seems to be conflicting
> > information out there. Either he had it wrong, or I had it
>
> > wrong. Or, perhaps we both did?
> >
> > Anyone?
> > (And please, no technical jargon engineer babble...)
> >
> > p.s. This was the Sears store at the South Plains Mall in
> > Lubbock Texas.
> >
>
>
> Wow! The guy really needs to update his facts. In no
> uncertain terms Analog will go off the air in early 2009.
> It may be as late as may, but it has been mandated as law.
>
> Depending on how far you live from the stations you want to
> pick up you can try going to Ebay and finding an older unit.
> Genrally you'll see Model numbers like T-151 3500 4200,
> etc. That first number tends to be the 'generation'. The
> older boxes that start with 1 are 1st generation. They
> aren't as selective and tend to ignore signals that aren't
> strong and clear, without interference.
>
> Search using LG LST and you'll find the popular line of LG
> models. For some reason LG stopped making the 4200a's so
> they went from being $200 to beyond $400 in some cases
> because they are the latest and greatest. Something like a
> Samsung SIR-T151 will gor for $70.
>
> You may want to consider a card for your computer instead.
> A Fushion HD card can be had for $100-ish. Of course they
> go higher if you want extra perks. The FusionHDTV5 would
> be the 5th (and latest) generation card. It picks up things
> that my old digital box couldn't. I had an old Samsung
> SIR-T151 with a directional antenna. Had to aim toward the
> station. The fusion doesn't seem to care and finds signals
> both directions. I live in an area where two stations are
> in the opposite direction of town than the others, and both
> directions they are way way out...so an antenna is helpful.
> In a large metro, that may not be the case.
>
> Antennaweb.org has a zip code thingy (non technical term!)
> that will tell you what channels are which direction.
>

 

[w9wi]

> I think WNYE-DT was/is on the WNYE-FM tower at Bronx Tech.
> ... They do have a CP for Empire.

Yep. Their regular CP is on ESB but they hold two STAs for the same site as WNYE-FM.

 

[w9wi]

> Digital TV has the advantage of offering more channels. But unless they
> do HDTV they are essentially getting 2-5 additional channel
> free.

I hear this argument fairly often: that the DTV transition was a big government giveaway to broadcasters, that they got additional spectrum for "free".

I can assure you it was hardly *free*.

That crew that climbed the 1,200' tower & installed the new DTV antenna weren't unpaid volunteers. Thales didn't *give* us that digital transmitter. The time I spend working on the HD studio equipment is not "off the clock". The electric utility is not donating the energy to operate the DTV transmitter. The lawyers & engineers who prepared the FCC (and local) paperwork to get the DTV plans approved weren't donating their time.

Our station, and with one exception* every other TV station in the U.S., is spending an enormous amount of money to implement DTV. With the sole alternative being to agree to go out of business. Not exactly "free".

* KLEP-TV in Newark, Arkansas, which decided they couldn't afford their "free" second channel, turned in their license to the FCC, and went off the air.

> Another thing is that can upconvert programs. So you think
> you're getting HDTV when all you're getting is an upcoverted
> signal. There are so many different types it easy to rip
> people off.

Switching the encoder back to SD mode when HD program material is not available is a FAR more complicated (and expensive) process than simply upconverting the SD material to HD.

I suspect (though I haven't seen it done) that would also result in some ugly glitches on most DTV receivers.

> signals. So the DTV signal is less. In other cases the
> digital signal isn't located by the analog transmitter.

True, though in many cases this means the digital signal is actually *better* than the analog. (and in Nashville at least, it allows two stations' digital transmitters to be *closer* to the city than their analogs)

 

[Mark_Ericson]

> Go to antennaweb and do a search for 75455 Mount Pleasant
> Texas according to the site they can get 9 analog stations
> right now and O so after 2009 the only way you can watch TV
> is to PAY for it you don't think these people and other in
> towns like this are not gonna throw a fit. Can't wait to
> hear the outcry on this

Antennaweb's formulas are really bad. I don't recommend them to people anymore.

If you can get KMSS-TV on analog, you'll more than likely get the digitals from Shreveport. And I'd guess that KSLA and KLTV, being closer, won't be a problem either.

- Trip<P ID="signature">______________
Visit my website, www.rabbitears.info! It's eventually going to be your one resource for television info! Digital television, histories, and technical information for the entire USA from one source!</P>