About time somebody noticed.

[Robert Bass]

Yep, very informative article for those who aren't in the know.

If you take any given song released today, whether it's a promo copy or the album copy, chances are both of them are completely identical, since the label very likely used the same master for both versions.

Take either copy of the song, and rip it into a program like Adobe Audition. Open the file and the first thing you'll notice is excessivly loud levels that have been clipped. There's hardly any dynamic range present. Even if you normalize it to say - 3dB (or 80%) there still remains little dynamic range and the clipping distortion remains.

Do the same with the exact same song from a JonesTM HitDisc and then compare the images. Also do an A/B sample. Try to do it blind, if possible. You'll notice the HitDisc version has dynamic range and is lacking clipping distortion, whereas the promo / album copy has literally no dynamic range and lots of clipping distortion..

Normalize both files to the same dB or percentage level, and then compare them again. The difference is like night and day, with the HitDisc version winning hands down.

R

 

[RadioMoo]

I notice notice that on some of the remastered or re-issued greatest hits, the audio is mashed and, on some, there is additional stereo "staging."

They give the masters to an intern and say. "Here, do something with these."

 

[davideduardo]

NU UH.... Sorry David but you are WRONG again.

We still work with JonesTM and they tell me the process of obtaining source material has not changed.

I know what you are really up to, so I will not continue this little game.

R

Sorry my patootie. I actually did one of the HitDisk services for TM/Radio Express about 5 or 6 years for TM (1994-1999), and the material used was 100% promo CDs from the record lablels and cuts from commercial CDs if we were notified of a release prior to shipping of the promo CD.

The source material is the same cut that goes to radio stations as a promo; the lable would sternly object to separate versions of a song being broadcast, as they might get BDS and MediaBase misreads and lose airplay credit. The labels try very hard to control the release versions, and have been known to call stations that edit (messes up fingerprint) or remix on their own to beg or threaten.

Oldies are a different matter. There, for material in the vinyl era and the early CD era (in other words, pre-1985 to 1986) they tried long ago to get a direct dub of the lowest generation master they could find, and did hiss and tape noise cleaning on it (the same process we Beautiful Music syndicators used in the same era) to make it as clean and "original" as possible.

The fact is, most promo material is sent online these days (I still do a weekly music service for another company... now in 14th year) and sometimes we get MP3's weeks ahead of a physical product even being available.

For all these reasons, particularly detection, record companies do not provide "different versions" of the same basic song to music services than they do to radio and club DJs (yes, they do long and short versions, and remixes, but not a different mixdown or mastering of the same song). Remember, the client for those services is the small market or small station that is of no interest to the record company and which needs to get either a library or new releases which the labels will not provide.

It's a fight for the #1 station in LA to get a modified mix (it costs a lable thousands of dollars) or a less comperssed mastered version (many, many thousands of dollars), and they sure are not going to do this for a bunch of minor or unrated stations that are not detected by BDS or MediaBase or Monitor Latino.

 

[Robert Bass]

David.

By “Special Masters”, I don’t mean “different versions”. The actual song is likely the same version on promo copies. By “special masters”, I am talking about from a technical standpoint.

I suspect the labels originally cut the masters without excessive squashing, clipping and coloration. I then believe the labels use this master to cut another master, which is the one that gets used for consumer release. When this consumer release master is cut, the shoddy mastering process gets implemented. I then believe the label sends the “original” master to JonesTM, while the ruined master goes to the pressing plant.

I don’t believe you actually worked on TM’s HitDiscs, in any way. I think you’re just making that up as your usual MO around here. But if you REALLY did work there, please explain why promo / album copies are typically lacking in dynamic range and have clipping distortion, whereas HitDiscs have dynamic range, consistant levels and no clipping distortion

Tell us why on GoldDisc 917N, track #16 (Sometimes Love Just Ain’t Enough by Patty Smyth) has reversed channels as compared to the version that appears on the original Patty Smyth album. Surely the label (MCA) would object to that! We have GoldDisc 917N at KEOM and I personally own a copy of the Patty Smyth album. I have compared the two. I’m fairly certain we have the same song on a HitDisc as well, and I intend to locate it on Monday.

I can easily come up with at least 50 more questions, but let’s see how you do with these first. And I’ll bet the company you work with now, is Broadcast Programming. Radio Programming and Management and Century 21 et al, have both been around longer than 14 years.

R

 

[davideduardo]

I suspect the labels originally cut the masters without excessive squashing, clipping and coloration. I then believe the labels use this master to cut another master, which is the one that gets used for consumer release. When this consumer release master is cut, the shoddy mastering process gets implemented. I then believe the label sends the “original” master to JonesTM, while the ruined master goes to the pressing plant.

Now you are getting close to the truth. Radio stations that get MP3 delivery (most of the BDS and Mediabase monitored stations do) usually get a version that has not be mastered for stamping out CDs (and not a rip of the promo CD)... it is a digital copy of the _studio_ master, not a pressing master which is the next step. Some music gets more compressed in the second stage of mastering, some do not.

I don’t believe you actually worked on TM’s HitDiscs, in any way.

THis is just like your malicious and heartless failure to believe that allergies are something beyond some sniffles. You sure must feel bad about that one if you have a conscience. You seem to have difficulty believing truth, and prefer the stuff from your Dallas board buddies. If you think I am upset with you about calling a life-threatening, debilitating illness something for which "there is no reason to miss work" then you are absolutely right. The fact is, after those comments I perceive you to be heartless and a misanthrope of major proportions and it scares me that you are teaching young people anything.

I think you’re just making that up as your usual MO around here.

I believe you just called me a liar, again. First the allergy thing, now the sideline I have had for 13 years or so.

The full, real, verifiable info is on my website. From 1993 to 1998 or 1999, I did the L series of TM's HitDisk which was co-produced by Radio Express (Tom Rounds, the creator of AT 40) and TM and was called from the start "Exitos Express" since Radio Express was, from the 80's, the TM distributor for Latin America. In 1999, the two separated, and TM hired Tech Guerrero to do the L disk for TM, and I continued to do Exitos Express for TR... I just finished editiuon 729 earlier this evening.

But if you REALLY did work there, please explain why promo / album copies are typically lacking in dynamic range and have clipping distortion, whereas HitDiscs have consistant levels and no clipping distortion

Many radio stations use the opposite of "normalize" to reprocess particularly nasty CD cuts; in most cases, the promo copies of songs, in MP3 form, are not the pressing master but the studio master... which is sometimes cleaner. In any case, labels are not going to remaster a song for the kind of "non-reporting" stations that buy HitDisks... there is no reason to. Also, remember, that the TM disks are mastered, too. They just do it better for radio than some labels.

Tell us why on GoldDisc 917N, track #16 (Sometimes Love Just Ain’t Enough by Patty Smyth) has reversed channels as compared to the version that appears on the original Patty Smyth album. Surely the label (MCA) would object to that!

Labels have zero interest in gold that is played. They are only interested in the priority currents. And they protect them visciously. They could care less about what gold or recurrents you play. Nada, nothing. As to the reversal, it may have been a label error in the promo copy... but once it is "gold" they have no interest. Plus, reversed channels do not change detection fingerprints, as the mono sum is the same...

I can easily come up with at least 50 more questions, but let’s see how you do with these first. And I’ll bet the company you work with now, is Broadcast Programming. Radio Programming and Management and Century 21 et al, have both been around longer than 14 years.

Nope, As I said, look at the Exitos Express section on my website... Radio Express was founded by Tom Rounds to syndicate things like AT 40 to the rest of the world when he sold the US production company that does AT 40. TR has been around syndication for about 38 years, having pretty much invented the first successful model for barter syndication (along with Jacobs and Kasem). TR was, going back to '66, the PD of KFRC when it went Top 40 under Bill Drake. And through the late 90's, RE distributed all TM material, and coproduced many things including HitDisk L, which I programmed and still do, but just for TR.

As I said, do the count. We have now done 729 editions of Exitos Express, the first 250 or 300 were TM and Radio Express coproductions. And we used promo CDs and release CDs with no reprocessing at all.

http://www.davidgleason.com/Radio_Express.htm

 

[Robert Bass]

David,

My comments regarding allergies were NOT meant to be heartless. If you go back and read that thread again, you will see I didn't challenge others who made similar comments. The fact is you have a credibility issue around here that runs all over the board. I don't mean just the Dallas board either. So obviously you're going to be questioned about things that you say, because you have been proven wrong at times even though you refuse to admit to it.

Now to steer this topic back on track, the mediabase stuff can be crappy at times, regardless of the source material. As I suspect you already know, this is the same technology yes.com uses to track station airplays on their site. There are more than a handful of instances where songs are missed or incorrectly reported. I have also witnessed instances where even a custom song edit still appears correctly on that site.

And finally as I have repeatedly stated in the past, I have no personal involvement with the student training at KEOM. Why you or anyone else assumes such, even though I have made this clear, is beyond me. My typical work day starts in the late afternoon, and extends into the evening. I rarely see any of the students. Because you still seem to think I am involved in that aspect of KEOM's operation, this suggests to me you are making an uninformed assumption, and if I am correct about this, maybe now you will see why you have a credibility issue around here. If I am wrong about that, then so be it.

R

 

[Oldbones]

David,

My comments regarding allergies were NOT meant to be heartless. If you go back and read that thread again, you will see I didn't challenge others who made similar comments. The fact is you have a credibility issue around here that runs all over the board. I don't mean just the Dallas board either. So obviously you're going to be questioned about things that you say, because you have been proven wrong at times even though you refuse to admit to it.

Not to butt in on your personal feud, but LOTS of people on these R-I boards have much greater credibility issues than David. I may not always agree with his views, but at least he's worked in the biz, which is more than can be said for 90% of the posters here who constantly whine about how horrible the broadcast industry is.

 

[VODood]

For a fellow Clevelander you can't be all bad Eduardo!

Per your bio you went to Hawken. A pretty good upbringing on the east side.

I too am from C-town. Worked at WMMS/WMJI/WMVX (94-00).


As Lakewood's own Norm N Nite would say... "Rock On"

 

[davideduardo]

My comments regarding allergies were NOT meant to be heartless. If you go back and read that thread again, you will see I didn't challenge others who made similar comments.

You stated, and then reiterated, the belief that allergies were not reason to miss work as they are not contageous and they don't produce a temperature. The fact that they can be fatal, cause a person to go deaf, bring on debilitating fatigue, etc., etc. seems of no consequence to you.

The fact is you have a credibility issue around here that runs all over the board. I don't mean just the Dallas board either. So obviously you're going to be questioned about things that you say, because you have been proven wrong at times even though you refuse to admit to it.

There are two kinds of issues.

First, there are opinions. Some opinions are unpopular, but there are no right or wrong opinions... just different points of view. A simple issue would be a difference of opinion on where a "Legal ID" should go, per FCC rules... some will say very close to the top of the hour, others will say somewhere in the closest stopset, even it it is 10 minute or more away. Since there has been no FCC fine or notice of violation to support either view, it's opinion. Not fact.

Even the most unpopular opinion is neither right nor wrong.

Then there is fact. A good example is the discussion on another board of whether Columbia Broadcasting Corp. was profitable from 1929 to the pre-War years. Despite that all financial reports to the governmment, all annual reports to the shareholders, and the published press releases in the media support constant profitability, as does the payment of dividends. Yet there is a poster who says that personal documents of Paley in a collection at a library say the contrary. So I am called wrong, despite having documentation from multiple sources, while the other poster has zero documentation save hearsay.

And on that basis I am deemed "wrong" despite the inability of anyone to prove the contrary. You, of course, get sucked in as you seem to know the folks... opinions, whether unpopular or radical are just that: opinions. And facts, unless verifiable, are not facts. I could tell you that Clear Channel was founded by space aliens and say that one of the Mays boys was heard saying this at a bar-b-q in 1977, but unless you can document such a statement, it is hearsay and not a real fact, no matter how it is painted or presented.

(The fact is that you are wrong on allergies, and now you accused me of lying about doing nearly 300 editions of one of the HitDisk series. Seems unfair.)

Now to steer this topic back on track, the mediabase stuff can be crappy at times, regardless of the source material. As I suspect you already know, this is the same technology yes.com uses to track station airplays on their site.

Each technology, that of Yes, of MediaBase and of Nielsen/BDS, is slightly different. MediaBase has very sophisticated monitoring "stations" in each market with extremely good equipment and antennas and such; occasionally (meaning "rarely") there is a missed detection, but the instances are so uncommon that they do not affect the usage of this material. Remeber, the biggest use of the service is by record companies who use it to track plays because this is the stuff that WalMart and Target and such use to stock and display music. All they care about, as I said, are the currents... and it is hard for a misdetection to mess up current plays... in fact, I have never seen an improper high rotation current detection on BDS or Mediabase.

There are more than a handful of instances where songs are missed or incorrectly reported. I have also witnessed instances where even a custom song edit still appears correctly on that site.

I see less than a handful... I see them rarely, and when I do, they are single plays a week and things like that. Some are funny (Metallica on KESS) and some are just a distraction... but rare. Remember, many station edits will get detected if the "fingerprint" is not destroyed... it is only a piece of the song that causes detection, not the whole thing. As a matter of fact, record companies in the past tried to find which "piece" it was by running ads with different pieces to see which one got detected, and they buuying tons of ads to create false detection.

And finally as I have repeatedly stated in the past, I have no personal involvement with the student training at KEOM. Why you or anyone else assumes such, even though I have made this clear, is beyond me.

Then I stand corrected. I had assumed that since this was a teaching facility, you were involved directly or indirectly with the stated purpose.

 

[davideduardo]

For a fellow Clevelander you can't be all bad Eduardo!

Per your bio you went to Hawken. A pretty good upbringing on the east side.

I too am from C-town. Worked at WMMS/WMJI/WMVX (94-00).

Nice set of calls to have to your credit... what are you doing now? I am always curious why folks leave radio, although I know the principal answers, unfortunately...

 

[wgliradio]

Plus, reversed channels do not change detection fingerprints, as the mono sum is the same...

It's just sloppy work, which we see alot of today. No excuse for problems like that.

 

[wgliradio]

Nice set of calls to have to your credit... what are you doing now? I am always curious why folks leave radio, although I know the principal answers, unfortunately...

Especially when you take part in the latter side of the equation on a daily basis.

 

[Robert Bass]

Now to steer this topic back on track, the mediabase stuff can be crappy at times, regardless of the source material. As I suspect you already know, this is the same technology yes.com uses to track station airplays on their site.

Each technology, that of Yes, of MediaBase and of Nielsen/BDS, is slightly different. MediaBase has very sophisticated monitoring "stations" in each market with extremely good equipment and antennas and such; occasionally (meaning "rarely") there is a missed detection, but the instances are so uncommon that they do not affect the usage of this material. Remeber, the biggest use of the service is by record companies who use it to track plays because this is the stuff that WalMart and Target and such use to stock and display music. All they care about, as I said, are the currents... and it is hard for a misdetection to mess up current plays... in fact, I have never seen an improper high rotation current detection on BDS or Mediabase.

Now David this is a perfect example of your inaccuracy.

I have witnessed the errors more times than I can count on two hands, especially with stations that run oldies. Then there's the holiday season where even selections from the past few years get missed. Of course I'm anticipating some long explanation from you about how holiday music carries less weight since it's only done once a year.

Regarding the "profitability" thread you spoke of, I have not even read it. I have heard bits and pieces of it, but nowhere near enough to reach my own conclusions.

And if you feel I am treating you unfairly by questioning your services on the HitDisc series, well you did make the assumption I was involved with the student instruction at KEOM. So consider us even.

R

 

[davideduardo]

I have witnessed the errors more times than I can count on two hands, especially with stations that run oldies. Then there's the holiday season where even selections from the past few years get missed. Of course I'm anticipating some long explanation from you about how holiday music carries less weight since it's only done once a year.

In MediaBase? I have not seen this, even on seasonal muisic. As I said, the errors are there, but they are infrequent and not enought to cause any misinterpretaiton of the rotations or the playlist of the stations. The most common thing is not having some obscure songs from the past fingerprinted, so if you look at the hour by hour logs, there are songs missing on stations with overly deep lists, or odd-song based specialty shows.

 

[raydofan]

JonesTM/TMCentury/Century21 has always obtained special masters direct from the labels, which as I understand it are different from the masters used for the consumer CD's. They also have technology that cleans up noise. It's caled NoNoise, and is a very expensive process.

Looking at graphic wav file images of the same song, one copy from JonesTM and the other storebought, you'll see and hear the difference.

R

NoNoise, IIRC, is the process used to remove hiss, for instance, on Jimi Hendrix reissues back in the late 80s/ early 90s. Frank Zappa had opportunity to use this 'plug in' around the same time, but I'm not sure if he actually employed the Sonic Solutions option for his remasters.

Of course, hiss filtering can be applied to older selections.

But if you offer a different EQ curve and band compression in sensitive areas of the band, this can make a difference. My thinking is that the best FM processing will back off processing itself if the increaase in 'clarity' is not necessary, and let the audio pass through. Ear of the beholder, both in procsessing design at the station level and in the listener. Formats dictate band emphasis as well.

 

[audiowkstation]

The major problem of late is two-fold.

A. The 'kiddies' running the show these days have no idea what proper dynamics 'is' and what happens to the music downstream. Lack of teaching and lack of listening to their older peers and that of the programme material.

B. Rogue mastering engineers pushing the level to the extreme using digital zero AS the limiter by clipping the A/D-D/A converters by 'default' because "vlado" or another one of the mastering engineers which deliver music on 'stun' setting actually works on records that become hits. then it is follow the leader, right off of the edge of the cliff.

As someone who has been in the music industry for over 30 years in the production, mixing and mastering realms, the quality that is being pawned off today is below that of the ACOUSTIC reproducers of the 20's in some cases.

 

[rrsounds]

<snip>
My thinking is that the best FM processing will back off processing itself if the increaase in 'clarity' is not necessary, and let the audio pass through. </snip>

You would think that but unfortunately, with few exceptions, you would be wrong.

I believe the best way to prevent excessive processing is to analyze the incoming audio's pre-existing amount of processing *before* making any changes. Then, when and if the analysis determines that programming is already heavily processed, that would suggest a "hands-off" approach. Not just reduced processing but, rather, NO processing (that's what the Ariane does). If you feed it highly processed music or other programming, the gain just sits there, making no adjustment whatsoever.

By only making changes when the long-term trend dictates, and then only briefly, the result is that music that has 'life' retains it, and music that is already at '11' doesn't get dragged further into the mud. While it can be argued that such an approach doesn't improve what's already bad, at least it doesn't make it worse!

While I applaud the folks who would like to use technical means to reverse the heavy handed processing on CDs, etc., keep in mind that anything that alters the original sound will, by definition, be subjective. This means that some people may consider the change to be an improvement, while others won't. My philosophy is to make as few changes as possible, and keep objectivity as a goal.

Encouraging record companies to provide Radio with less processed material is also good. But if past practice is any guide, I wouldn't hold my breath!

Kind Regards,
David

 

[Robert Bass]

I believe the best way to prevent excessive processing is to analyze the incoming audio's pre-existing amount of processing *before* making any changes. Then, when and if the analysis determines that programming is already heavily processed, that would suggest a "hands-off" approach. Not just reduced processing but, rather, NO processing (that's what the Ariane does). If you feed it highly processed music or other programming, the gain just sits there, making no adjustment whatsoever.

Well said, David! I couldn't agree more.

I don't have any experience with gear from Ariane, but I do know the Aphex Compellor will act in somewhat similar fashion. Of course which one is better, is subjective.

Personally I flat out refuse to use a clipped CD as source material, whenever possible. Even though the Compellor can compensate to some degree, I can pick out the excessive distortion that remains after the Orban does its thing.

R

 

[raydofan]

I believe the best way to prevent excessive processing is to analyze the incoming audio's pre-existing amount of processing *before* making any changes. Then, when and if the analysis determines that programming is already heavily processed, that would suggest a "hands-off" approach. Not just reduced processing but, rather, NO processing (that's what the Ariane does). If you feed it highly processed music or other programming, the gain just sits there, making no adjustment whatsoever.

By only making changes when the long-term trend dictates, and then only briefly, the result is that music that has 'life' retains it, and music that is already at '11' doesn't get dragged further into the mud. While it can be argued that such an approach doesn't improve what's already bad, at least it doesn't make it worse!

While I applaud the folks who would like to use technical means to reverse the heavy handed processing on CDs, etc., keep in mind that anything that alters the original sound will, by definition, be subjective. This means that some people may consider the change to be an improvement, while others won't. My philosophy is to make as few changes as possible, and keep objectivity as a goal.

Encouraging record companies to provide Radio with less processed material is also good. But if past practice is any guide, I wouldn't hold my breath!

Kind Regards,
David

Yes! I have looked at your product, and I like the 'philosophy' it's based on. Any stations in Philly or NJ that use it?

 

[Sgeirk]

As someone who has used the Compellor and an Arianne, they are in no way close cousins or behave similarly.

Making a comparison to cars, one may be nice family sedan that will get you to and from work...the other is a high performance sports car.

If you want to race in a major market, I'll take the high performance sports car. The Arianne is a work of art, David!