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Advice on computer speakers and/or powered monitors

M

Mike Walker

Guest
For the last several years, I've used a Cambridge Soundworks Model 88 under my monitor as my computer speakers. Don't laugh! It gave consistent results, had surprisingly deep, yet tight bass, and was smooth octave to octave. I KNOW there's lots better stuff out there, but this was what my ears were used to. I KNEW what a spot that sounded correct on those speakers would sound like on the air. Well, the subwoofer amplifier died, so I'm trying to decide what to do for speakers. I have a nice set of Energy C-3s that are truly accurate in the same room that I use to check my mixes on, but here at the keyboard I want something that's smooth, that gets the midrange right, and has enough bass extension so I know what's going on "down there". Any suggestions? I've considered the Logitech 2.1 THX certified system, but the sub is ENORMOUS. I don't think it would fit under my desk (it's 11" x 15")
 
If you're interested in using another table radio I would recommend something from Sangean. I'm using their WR-1 (mono) as my speaker and it's great. For home use it's right up my alley.

The Bose Companion II speakers also do a job without the need for a sub.
 
Fostex 6301Bs are great for radio/TV audio commercial production.
Full range speakers with no goofy tweeter high freq crossover.

If the production sounds good on the 6301s, they'll sound good on radio
and tv.

You should be rolling off below 60hz anyway for max loudness.
 
My budget is up to 150 bucks. I wouldn't consider anything that's mono, as I use stereo quite extensively in my production. Also I NEED to hear below 60hz because a)-I believe in low end! Most decent car stereos out there, even factory originals, have subwoofers. I don't produce "bass-free" spots. And b)-I also have a syndicated radio show...a music show called Saving the 70s http://www.savingthe70s.com I certainly won't be rolling off the bass on that.

As for "bass free", in my humble opinion, there are too many spots on radio and tv that are piercingly bright. I go for more of a "full" sound. My clients like it, and hell...I'd do it even if they didn't, because after 35 years in the biz, I trust MY EARS. I've redone work for lots of reasons, but NEVER because a client didn't think the sound quality was good! If rolling off below 60hz works for you, then God bless ya'! My spots won't sound like yours if they're played back to back...which is good for both of us!

So...back to the question...a budget of 150 bucks, and nothing that's mono only, or completely lacking bass. Thanks so much for the responses!
 
Hmmm.... $150 total? In that range most likely looking at KRK's or M-Audio.


If you had $150-200 per speaker... then I would recommend what I use, the Yamaha HSM50 powered monitors. L-O-V-E them. Set flat.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HS50M/

I got mine on eBay (new) for $150ea.

I got powered for two reasons. #1. Less cables, and #2. No RF interference with my Avalon M5 (specs list RF as an issue which was evident with unpowered setup).
 
I don't think there's anything for $150 a pair that will reproduce excellent,
accurate sound from a MUSIC standpoint.

You might try these...

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MA7A/

They are full range speakers, like you would have in a car or a cheap component stereo, what
most people listen to the radio on. You can always check your bass on some good headphones.

As to the BASS point, radio processors run a high pass at 40hz. Male voices
rarely go below 100hz, and female voice below 150hz. When I produce a spot,
I want the voice to take up more of the spectrum than the music. I want the
clients message heard loud and clear, and so does the client.

But, I produce more TV than radio, where bass is almost non-existent on typical TVs.
So, I roll off at 60hz.
 
Just got my new First Compass Spring/Fall catalog

M-Audio Studiophile AV-40s - $199/pair
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudiophileAV40.html

Sampson Mediaone actives... Retail prices

Mediaone 3-A - $139.99/pair http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1960&brandID=2
Mediaone 4A - $209.99/pair http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1961

That's about it for $150 total.

If you can bump your budget to $200 per speaker, then you'll be doing ok.

Even the Fostex that surf mentioned retail for $250 each, per Full Compass.


M-Audio is now owned by Avid (Digidesign/Pro Tools) so I think the speakers are better quality than just a few years back... but don't know for sure.
 
surfdude said:
I don't think there's anything for $150 a pair that will reproduce excellent,
accurate sound from a MUSIC standpoint.

You might try these...

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MA7A/

They are full range speakers, like you would have in a car or a cheap component stereo, what
most people listen to the radio on. You can always check your bass on some good headphones.

As to the BASS point, radio processors run a high pass at 40hz. Male voices
rarely go below 100hz, and female voice below 150hz. When I produce a spot,
I want the voice to take up more of the spectrum than the music. I want the
clients message heard loud and clear, and so does the client.

But, I produce more TV than radio, where bass is almost non-existent on typical TVs.
So, I roll off at 60hz.
Click to expand...

surf, you'll appreciate this. At Smoketree we used Event 20/20 unpowered monitors. Great speakers for $150each. Funny thing, then CE Ben Brinitzer, now CE of Clear Channel SE, had never heard of them. We used them at WMMS. I hated speakers on the walls... so 1980s. Bob Edwards got me the Events, and another pair for another studio, plus 4 TC Electronic Finalizers. The Showgram has AKG414's in their studio. They asked me the best mic under $1000 (at that time). They of course have their own budget and own studio separate from the G105 studio. I suggested TLM103's or the 414s. They chose the latter. If nothing else, Smoketree (CC Raleigh) has kickass studios. I don't think anyone even uses the Finalizers anymore. I prefer that outboard box to plugs most times.
 
There are really good reasons for rolling off the bass. The processor will take care of it. Anything bass heavy messes up the processor and causes ducking. Most studio monitors won't go below 50Hz. and a sub will cause more harm than good unless a great crossover is used. Accuracy below 45Hz will require at least 3-5 grand.

Unfortunately, an accurate monitor solution is not in your price range. If bass is important, you need 8" monitors. Bottom would be $500/pair. In my opinion, you need to wait until you can do at least that much.

Emmett
 
My "real" speakers for critical listening are my Energy C-3s. I usually do critical mixing on headphones (Sony MDR-7506 and Sennheiser HD-580), then check the final mix on the Energy's. But I didn't realize until my Model 88 died how much I had come to rely on it's particular tonal characteristics. As stated earlier about the Fostex, I KNOW if my work sounds good on the Model 88, it'll sound good on the radio.

By the way, don't be too quick to dismiss a couple of great speakers in the 150 (per pair) range...the Klipsch Promedia 2.1 and Logitech (whatever the model is)...both THX certified. And they have SERIOUS bass extension. Not big bass (of course you can crank that too high), but EXTENDED bass. But the subs are freakin' huge, and there's not that much room under my desk.

Now I have jury-rigged a setup using the satellites from a set of Logitech X-240 with a sub from an older pair of Creative speakers. Using splitters and a Radio Shack volume control, I've got it all balanced, and sounding pretty damn nice...nice enough I'll bet you'd lose that grin that started at the corners of your mouth reading about it. But the wires running everywhere across my desk are clumsy, and my wife says look awful. But who here has a neat desk? At any rate, the reason my budget is restricted now is that I've already splurged on an unexpected purchase for my studio in the last few weeks...a lapsop computer at a price too damn low to pass up...plenty of horsepower for audio tasks, and since I'm diabetic, it lets me mix from my recliner when my feet and ankles swell. But having just dropped a pocketful of cash on the laptop, it was an inconvenient time to need speakers.
 
Mike,
my set up is a pair of JBL LSR biampable studio monitors at head height combined with a set of Tannoy nearfield monitors flown

I get a great balance and just as good as my Sony 7506's My Partner in the studio I operate in my spare time still seems to like AKG's.

Computer speakers are no match for powered monitors.
 
Emmett, with all due respect a)-there ARE inexpensive speakers with great bass extension in my price range. The Klipsch Promedia 2.1, THX certified (which means it has to have real bass extension) with a huge 8" sub, and genuine 32hz bass is one of them.

I'm not arguing the merits of rolling off below 60hz. If it works for you, then good on you. You're not changing the way I freakin' mix! I mix so that my stuff sounds balanced up against the music and the studio mic, NOT THE OTHER SPOTS! My spots end up sounding full and "round", while lots of the other stuff (certainly not all of it) sounds WAY too bright and forward. Perhaps I have found a certain level of success BECAUSE my work doesn't sound like anyone else's (as have you, no doubt). The way I work isn't up for debate, so if that's what you want to discuss, have a nice day!

I would submit that even if you ARE rolling off below 60hz (45hz is different altogether...that's almost as low as rock/pop music goes anyway...with an open e string on electric bass, the lowest note in most music, being at 42hz), you STILL need monitors with bass extension, so you can hear if there's anything unintended going on "down there". I'm a tech fan, so I listen to Leo Laporte's radio show and podcast. Well I've yelled at Leo a few times for low frequency thumps, and noises on his shows. He always thanks me, and says "I mix on small speakers, so I can't hear these sounds". Well ANYBODY can afford to hear extended bass...buy a good set of headphones. Geez! I know it's not politically correct to mix on headphones, or to admit that we do that, but obviously my mixing techniques aren't politically correct, so there's no loss in admitting that I PREFER to mix on headphones. The speakers are a rough check while I'm laying down tracks and editing. I also use them, and my Energy C-3s (a small speaker with REAL bass extension to 30hz in my room) for checking the mix. Then on the radio, my work sounds like (gasp) THE MUSIC! It sounds like a part of the programming...like it belongs.
 
THX certification means effectively nothing unless your room is also THX certified. And keep in mind that bass extension does NOT mean accurate bass. ANY speaker system will have a very hard time producing low frequencies accurately, which is why porting is used. As a matter of physics, unless huge midfields are used, bass reproduction is going to be an estimation at best. Now, in terms of listening, that's fine. For monitoring, it's bad news. There are TONS of home speakers that sound great, but that doesn't make them accurate. Great monitors don't sound great...They sound accurate. Take Bose...I love the way Bose systems sound...But I would never, ever mix on them.

I actually don't roll off at 60Hz...I roll off at 40Hz with an 18dB/octave filter. I would never go that steep at 60Hz, but a 12dB/octave filter at 60Hz would be fine.

You're right...There ARE inexpensive speakers in your price range with bass extension. Speakers which I guarantee have horrible phase distortion at the crossover point, a poor damping rate, a shake frequency response and awful imaging. The 3" driver in those is NOT going to produce anything well around 200-600Hz, nor is the sub, which means you're missing out on the voice fundamentals, of all things to be missing.

It's quite possible that I have a little experience with studio equipment and might know what I'm talking about. I might have a little experience working with some gear. I might have even taken home some studio monitors this week to test in a less well designed studio...Maybe. Did I misread the title of this thread? I thought it said you were asking for advice.

Emmett Andrews
Sweetwater Sound Inc.
1.800.222.4700 x 1344
[email protected]
 
You know Emmett, this kind of snobbery MIGHT be why I haven't done business with Sweetwater in many years. That plus I HATED my "personal consultant" (or whatever the guy was called), and he wouldn't leave me the hell alone! I bought some gear from you guys in '96 and '97, and YOU'RE STILL FREAKING SPAMMING ME!

Dude, I didn't say you didn't have experience, or weren't knowledgable. If only you'd extend the same courtesy to others you seem to DEMAND, you might learn that I am hardly a novice...having spent 35 YEARS in radio, and done everything from morning shows to production to building freaking studios from scratch! Richard Nixon was president when I got into this biz. And I've been involved with audio gear since about the age of 12. I wouldn't make claims about speaker bass response (for my Energy speakers, at any rate) without having freaking measured the damn things! And "porting" is no more, or less accurate than any other bass loading method. Admittedly, getting bass right is hit or miss in most people's rooms. But sometimes, as in my small room with my Energy C-3s back against one wall, and my listening chair back against the other, the room's natural bass lift enhances just where the speakers take a nosedive, and extends bass quite a bit, with no ill effects. My particular room allows small two way speakers to go quite deep, with no subwoofer...though admittedly not at levels that would threaten anyone's lease.

As for THX certification, it DOES mean something for computer speakers...they must have extended, linear bass that goes quite deep...I believe to 35hz...in order to receive it. And as for the linear part, they're freaking COMPUTER SPEAKERS. They're at arms length...by definition they are NEAR-FIELD! And bass extension AT MY DESK is no major chore. if the speakers are capable.

Studio-types love to believe that "studio monitors" are necessarily more accurate than consumer gear, but facts certainly don't bear that out. The fact is that many of the most accurate speakers are designed for audiophiles and music lovers (and no, I'm not talking about computer speakers, though some of those are quite good as well).

You're right though, I did ask for advice. ON COMPUTER SPEAKERS! Not studio monitors, or any other topic...certainly not on mixing techniques. But when these subjects came up, I explained MY PHILOSOPHY (they are to be my speakers, after all), and HOW I MIX! If you cared about actually giving the best advice FOR ME, you might take these into consideration!

Again, I never questioned your professionalism, Emmett. I'd appreciate the same courtesy. As for gear purchases, I left Sweetwater long ago, in favor of Musicians Friend and BSW. Nothing that's happened here has convinced me that I was mistaken in doing so!
 
It has nothing to do with snobbery, nor my place of work. I provided my contact info IN CASE you or (or anyone else) wanted to chat more privately about the matter. Where you choose to spend your money is your business, but for God's sake, if you're going to ask for advice, TAKE SOME! You have argued with every point everyone has made here and the title of YOUR thread is, in fact "Advice on computer speakers and/or powered monitors". But you say "I did ask for advice. ON COMPUTER SPEAKERS! Not studio monitors..." Really? What other kind of active "monitor" is there? It seems to me that you just wanted to start an argument, since no one has given you advice you deem worthy.

And yes, studio types believe studio monitors are more accurate because THEY ARE. They are designed for a studio environment and are created to portray an accurate picture of what's happening. That's the whole purpose behind them. Consumer and (some) audiophile gear is made to sound good.

And I never once said that what you're doing is wrong. Surfdude said you should be rolling off the bass below 60Hz. I simply added specific reasons why people roll off the bass. Never once did I say that you should or should not. Quoting myself: "There are really good reasons for rolling off the bass." And then I provided some. You then said bass is important to you, so my assessment is that you need larger monitors and more cash to do it right.

Feel free to go back and reread everything I wrote. I never challenged your ability to do anything except you ability to achieve your desired goals at your desired price point. I gave you my take on the situation, and specific scientific reasons why it isn't possible at your price point. I also made a higher-budget suggestion, in the amount of $500/pair (not unreasonable, in my opinion). If you already know how to do that to your satisfaction, please explain to me why you're asking for advice at all.

Emmett
 
Make: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

You come here and ask this crowd of gathered wisdom (such as it is) for some advice and then you jump down everybody's throat for giving you suggestions you don't like.

I was away from the business for a number of years and when I began trying to get up to speed to participate again, I became disappointed at the marketplace for consumer audio gear. No body seems to make quality oriented receivers any more. Then as I continued my quest to understand broadcasting of the 2000's compared to earlier years, I learned that the FCC has agreed that all stations should limit their frequency response to minimize interference between stations. (AM in particular.) So then I came to realize that the car-makers for instance, had no incentive to make or buy receivers that could receive audio of better quality than the cripple audio that is legal to transmit.

I find that the buys in this board who are doing production continue to put out the very best sound they can. I stand in awe of people with "golden ears" who can listen to their own productions and by listening, tell which of their microphones they used. They can tell the difference. 98.6% of the listeners can tell the difference, but because the talent feels they have given it their very best, they put emotion and feeling into the voice work that even a 29.95 mic from Radio Shack would make them sound better than I do with my collection of "this will get by" equipment.

You asked for advice. After months and months of arguing with my ego and my pocketbook I bought the Yamaha HS50M five-inch power monitors. The downside is that I don't achieve orgasms listening to myself. The good news is that when I take crummy recordings of weddings, funerals, family gatherings, etc and edit them for people, I make people very happy because I am tuning my edits to listeners ears rather than my precious egotistical ears.

Standard price is $200 each. By careful shopping, waiting for a sales event, collecting a discount coupon awarded from a previous purchase I got them for something around $130 each. Remember, that includes a built-in amplifier in each speaker. I did the A-B tests of all the $150 a pair speakers until the salespeople were turning various shades of blue and even my worn-out tin ears said: "No, no, absolutely no."
 
I wouldn't argue with the advice given if it wasn't so wrong, and if those giving it didn't insist on substituting THEIR priorities for MY OWN!

As for there beign no quality stereo receivers...three names...Outlaw Audio, NAD, Harman Kardon. The fact is that quality stereo receivers went away for a few years completely. But they ARE BACK (thankfully!)

Back to MY PREFERENCES for MY SPEAKERS! I am not buying ultimate monitor speakers. I've stated that time and again. I'm buying something for casual listening while I track and edit, with good bass extension, and a smooth midrange. My desk doesn't have room for the monitors you guys are recommending. If I bought them, I'd have NO PLACE TO PUT THEM! Does THAT matter? Or should I just "shut up and take the advice I'm given".

I DO appreciate advice. I DO NOT appreciate tips on how I should mix, or the assertion that I should EVER substitute anyone's judgement for my own, or more specifically, anyone's priorities for my own. Screw it. I WILL BUY WHAT MAKES SENSE TO ME! If you want to recommend COMPUTER SPEAKERS (NOT studio monitors), with good bass extension and smooth midrange, then I welcome your recommendation. Those are MY PRIORITIES!
 
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