Again, Agency - Client research is OFF

[surfdude]

We test music on our "first choice" listeners (Oldies format) and "occasional" Oldies listeners.

I've tested 2500 tiltles over the last three years.
The same songs always test high. These people have liked BROWN EYED GIRL for thirty years, and still
do.

Believe me, we want more songs to test playable, but they don't. When you've asked your listeners which songs they like the most/least, you just can't play songs that 50% of them don't like.

Most people who post here are NOT typical Oldies listeners. You have much wider taste and knowledge than
AVERAGE listener, who we MUST rely on to stay in business.

If Oldies stations play the best of the best, we add new listeners younger than 45. They hear MY GIRL and call the station and ask "who sang that?"

My station plays GREAT music that many people love.. It just happens to be older music.

For Nostalgia and deeper cuts, and where ratings and advertising doesn't matter - Sirus and XM offer excellent
Oldies channels. (Not being flip, this is where hard core Oldies fans should be)

 

[Don62]

And "geezers" are a HUGE segment of the population, to be sure. Add to them the teens and twentysomethings that have little interest in terrestrial radio, and there won't be much of an audience left. Three or four music stations per market should about cover it.

Here you go... a part of the release by Paragon, a well established and professional research company.

Study: Radio TSL Up Among Hard-to-Reach 14-24 Demos

"A study released Tuesday by Paragon Media Strategies shows radio's time spent listening, or TSL, among the hard to reach 14-24 demo was up in 2008. The study, entitled "Youth Radio & New Media," also found a sharp rise in the percentage of those who say broadcast radio is their primary source. And that's not all, radio is dominating in-car music delivery, with a substantial lead over CDs and portable music players.

Music was also found to be radio's appeal for the younger 14-24 demo with "new music" and the "variety of music" offered as the primary reasons for listening. Additionally, broadcast radio is beginning to challenge the Internet as a primary source for new music.

"This year's results of this ongoing study can be considered great news for radio, which hasn't had a lot to celebrate lately with younger demos," said Paragon President/COO John Stevens. "14- to 24-year-old TSL to radio is up, and radio continues to dominate in-car music listening. More younger listeners say they are listening to radio 'more' than 'less,' and that is a significant change from a year ago."

I'm guessing that PMS (no pun intended) is supported by the media industry. Sounds like a case of "stroking" to me.

I also see zero hard numbers. Notice how vague that self-promotional "news release" is.

"Listening is up..." By how much? .00001 of a percent?

David, please provide some numbers.

Still no numbers. For someone so doggedly pounding numbers, "facts" and statistics down our throats all the time, interesting how the so-called expert can't come up with numbers.

What's next, David? You gonna attack 1190-AM, Dallas, for playing oldies, like you did on the Dallas board?

"1190 didn't work because nobody wants to hear oldies on AM..." or some kind of drivel like that. Good to see the real listeners in Dallas proved you wrong there, bucko.

 

[Don62]

Believe me, we want more songs to test playable, but they don't. When you've asked your listeners which songs they like the most/least, you just can't play songs that 50% of them don't like.

Pardon me, pal, but who said anything about playing only songs that half the people don't like to hear?

Of course play the big hits, but don't ignore the gems and other hits that were just as big - the ones that hit the Top 20 but are never heard from these days, like Seven Rooms of Gloom and Come Back When You Grow Up and Rag Doll (No. 1).

Radio doesn't have to sound like white bread all the time. But reliance on outsiders ( i.e. "research" ) and canned "focus groups" has sure helped run the format into the ground.

 

[Tom Wells]

We test music on our "first choice" listeners (Oldies format) and "occasional" Oldies listeners.

I've tested 2500 tiltles over the last three years.
The same songs always test high. These people have liked BROWN EYED GIRL for thirty years, and still
do.

Believe me, we want more songs to test playable, but they don't. When you've asked your listeners which songs they like the most/least, you just can't play songs that 50% of them don't like.

Most people who post here are NOT typical Oldies listeners. You have much wider taste and knowledge than
AVERAGE listener, who we MUST rely on to stay in business.

If Oldies stations play the best of the best, we add new listeners younger than 45. They hear MY GIRL and call the station and ask "who sang that?"

My station plays GREAT music that many people love.. It just happens to be older music.

For Nostalgia and deeper cuts, and where ratings and advertising doesn't matter - Sirus and XM offer excellent
Oldies channels. (Not being flip, this is where hard core Oldies fans should be)

At least when Brown Eyed Girl was on the charts, there were still great songs many of us liked which got played.
These songs did not appeal to those who then and now like Brown Eyes Girl, but they had to hear them.
Things like Bubble Puppy, Led Zeppelin, etc.

Now the most interesting music is gone and what's left is tripe and overburned classics, just because people have poor memories,
or because we don't dare jog people's memories. We'd rather look at a bad BW photocopy of the past than a full scale color photograph...

Most people drive the 4-dr sedan but wish they had a convertible. They'd never actually buy a convertible, but kinda wish they could.
One is far more fun, the other very staid and boring.

You have guessed correctly that I am a convertible owner.
I can't afford one either, but my parents bought me a $300 car 31 years ago that I drove to work today.

In the same way with music, the masses of disposable music deserve some airplay, but the job of radio was to
find and play the best music, not just the least offensive (most innocuous) mix of music.

As before, I could listen through Brown Eyed Girl, waiting for something "really cool" to come along, but if every next song hasta be
one that tested well, I'm going to be tired of ALL of them.

 

[davideduardo]

[Radio doesn't have to sound like white bread all the time. But reliance on outsiders ( i.e. "research" ) and canned "focus groups" has sure helped run the format into the ground.

Those "outsiders" are the listener base. And "focus groups" are not used to rate songs.

So far, in most of your posts, you try to make broad statements based on a poor understanding of radio or of the terms and facts.

Focus Group: 8 to 12 people on average who sit with with a moderator who brings up topics for discussion. In radio, this could be discussing the morning show, the comparison of one station with another, the overall music blend, viewing and discussing tv spots, etc. Average duration is about an hour to an hour and a quarter.

Music Test: around 100 carfully selected persons, representing a cross section of a station's listener base, who spend about 2 hours and a half listening to 450 to 600 song hooks and rating them based on interest in hearing them on the radio today.

 

[Don62]

[Radio doesn't have to sound like white bread all the time. But reliance on outsiders ( i.e. "research" ) and canned "focus groups" has sure helped run the format into the ground.

Those "outsiders" are the listener base. And "focus groups" are not used to rate songs.

So far, in most of your posts, you try to make broad statements based on a poor understanding of radio or of the terms and facts.

Focus Group: 8 to 12 people on average who sit with with a moderator who brings up topics for discussion. In radio, this could be discussing the morning show, the comparison of one station with another, the overall music blend, viewing and discussing tv spots, etc. Average duration is about an hour to an hour and a quarter.

Music Test: around 100 carfully selected persons, representing a cross section of a station's listener base, who spend about 2 hours and a half listening to 450 to 600 song hooks and rating them based on interest in hearing them on the radio today.

I couldn't give a rat's a-- what some isolated focus groups likes or dislikes.

They may think Sugar Sugar is the Bee's Knees, but Be My Baby and Runaway were a lot better, and more listenable.

Just because some dolt from '08 never heard of Bobby Darin or Gene Pitney ( and therefore, of course, is immediately suspicious of unfamiliar music ) doesn't mean those great songs can't be played as well.

David, you seem to rely on the crutch of only doing the "safe" thing. Never take chances.

If you were on that Star Trek episode, the one where that Captain surrendered all of his men to the evil ruler on the planet, and had talked Capt. Kirk et. al. to join them, you'd be like that cowardly character.

But even he at the end was brave and fought back.

I don't see you doing anything out of the norm. Just keep the station playing "safe" songs. Limit selections.
Like elevator music. Boring as hell.

You, sir, and your ilk have helped ruin radio.

 

[skippertthomas]

God... I love STEAK... But, it tends to taste better when I have a Baked Patato with Butter and Sour Cream and a Salad with Italian Dressing and a piece of Texas Toast, with that Steak... Makes the Steak taste better and the garnishment of the others does not make it so routine... Don't forget the "A1" or "57"!!! ;D

 

[radioray]

I have disagreed with David on these boards on occasion in the past, but in this thread he is absolutely dead on.

The fact is, SOME stations (too few) do big music tests (I know of one Major Market that tested 3000 songs from 55-85 in the past year.....however, that is an exception and yes, that is a problem, sometimes stations to save money will test only 600-700 songs and play the best 300 or so....too few!)

Another problem I have is that many stations test not only their own listeners but fans of different stations. Now I understand that is to try to find what they like "across the street" and to try to steal some of them away, but that can lead to people only knowing the biggest songs (after all if they were oldies fans, they would listen to the oldies station, not the, say, Soft AC station down the dial). So that can also lead to too small playlists (just the biggest hits). Yes, they usually ask the panelist if he at least occasionally listens to the Oldies station (P2) but in my professional opinion that does not cut it.

So if done (in my opinion) "wrong", (not enough songs tested, too much reliance on non-format fans are the two biggest mistakes I see) the testing can lead to too few songs.

Finally, I am pretty liberal after music tests in trying to find excuses to play a song, instead of not play it. For me as a former PD, now GM and owner, when I sit and do a music sort with the PD or consultant, I will always fight for songs to be kept in, even if its in some lunar category. In my opinion, if the "hate" score is low, I'm okay with keeping the song in the selector and having it crop up now and then. Some consultants want minimum up scores and high familiarity, in my opinion, the most important thing is hate. Don't play the songs people hate. Ever.

However, as I said at the start there ARE a LOT of stations that do it RIGHT. If done right, there is NOTHING wrong with testing.

What is testing? It is simply going to the audience/potential audience and saying, waddya want to hear? What is wrong with that?

How would you like going to a restaurant and having the waiter just plop down some exotic dish on your table and say "I don't know if you want this, but the expert chef in the kitchen thinks this is for your own good, bon-apetit! If you dont like it, you should!"

What kind of arrogance is that?

If done right, music testing is simply asking the consumer what they want to hear. I spend over 100,000 dollars a year on testing at my stations and it's the best investment I make each year.

 

[oldies76]

DavidEduardo Music Test: around 100 carfully selected persons, representing a cross section of a station's listener base, who spend about 2 hours and a half listening to 450 to 600 song hooks and rating them based on interest in hearing them on the radio today.

100 carefully selected persons, who spend 2.5 long hours, listening to 450 to 600 song hooks that have been presented over and over and OVER again, because these are the only songs that ever got aired in the first place since the 80's!

These people only score these songs, because IT'S ONLY WHAT THEY HEAR AND KNOW!!

Wake up man!!

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Most people who post here are NOT typical Oldies listeners. You have much wider taste and knowledge than the AVERAGE listener, who we MUST rely on to stay in business.

This statement should be framed and hung just above your monitor, that is those that desire to have less popular titles played ---

Most people who post here are NOT typical Oldies listeners. You have much wider taste and knowledge than the AVERAGE listener, who we MUST rely on to stay in business.

 

[Don62]

Most people who post here are NOT typical Oldies listeners. You have much wider taste and knowledge than the AVERAGE listener, who we MUST rely on to stay in business.

This statement should be framed and hung just above your monitor, that is those that desire to have less popular titles played ---

Most people who post here are NOT typical Oldies listeners. You have much wider taste and knowledge than the AVERAGE listener, who we MUST rely on to stay in business.

So loyal listeners or non-average listeners aren't important? You can't find a way to serve them? Everything has to be directed toward the masses that could care less about the music?

Imagine a grocery store that sold only meat, potatoes, and white breads, just the basics. Nothing extra special for the premium customers.

You want radio to act like that?

Guess I'm too late. Radio does act bland.

 

[The Beave]

Most people who post here are NOT typical Oldies listeners. You have much wider taste and knowledge than the AVERAGE listener, who we MUST rely on to stay in business.

This statement should be framed and hung just above your monitor, that is those that desire to have less popular titles played ---

Most people who post here are NOT typical Oldies listeners. You have much wider taste and knowledge than the AVERAGE listener, who we MUST rely on to stay in business.

So loyal listeners or non-average listeners aren't important? You can't find a way to serve them? Everything has to be directed toward the masses that could care less about the music?

Imagine a grocery store that sold only meat, potatoes, and white breads, just the basics. Nothing extra special for the premium customers.

You want radio to act like that?

Guess I'm too late. Radio does act bland.

Radio wants to be the "7-11's of america" Not necessisarily Iranian owned and Jehovas Witnesses
run. Only the basics you need at a price that we (corporate radio) can make money at. Not much convience there.. Hell the attendant won't gas up your car, check the oil, or carry out your bag for you. Not much "full service" there.

 

[davideduardo]

I couldn't give a rat's a-- what some isolated focus groups likes or dislikes.

I've come to the conclusion that you are either a troll or just can't bear listening to facts that contradict your imaginary world of misconceptions.

AGAIN: Focus Groups are not used to test music. I've said it, and others have said it many times to you and your cohort of deep "fortunately forgotten" oldies.

It's not even amusing to try to explain how the real world actually works, as you just come back with the same misconceptions over and over.

Remember, the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

[muskrat14]

DavidEduardo Music Test: around 100 carfully selected persons, representing a cross section of a station's listener base, who spend about 2 hours and a half listening to 450 to 600 song hooks and rating them based on interest in hearing them on the radio today.

100 carefully selected persons, who spend 2.5 long hours, listening to 450 to 600 song hooks that have been presented over and over and OVER again, because these are the only songs that ever got aired in the first place since the 80's!

These people only score these songs, because IT'S ONLY WHAT THEY HEAR AND KNOW!!

Wake up man!!

So we should play thing people don't know? Wake up, yourself.

 

[The Beave]

60's and 70's classic hits, could easily have the same playlist in numbers as the Jack, or Bob format (adult Hits). I could esasily say that I could think of close to 3-4 thousand songs that would, or could easily be added to a classic hits playlist. Some of them aren't even played but are easily recognizable in a heartbeat.

Some of this shows the education level of most music directors today. "Force fed guinia pigs of radio." Sometimes I wonder if they are on the take...

I bet if you ask oldies programmers that are in their 30's... They wouldn't know who the "Grass Roots" are.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

I could easily say that I could think of close to 3-4 thousand songs that would, or could easily be added to a classic hits playlist. Some of them aren't even played but are easily recognizable in a heartbeat.

Please save some of that good stuff you're smoking because I'd like a toke or two ... it's been a while but I'll make an exception this time. I don't think anyone beside you, me, and maybe 20 others on these boards would recognize a song like ... ohh maybe "Roses and Rainbows" or "The Eggplant that ate Chicago" and those two probably would rank mid-way through your 4,000 song playlist.

BTW I have a buddy who used to tour with The Grassroots (not an original member but who is these days?!!)

 

[The Beave]

I could easily say that I could think of close to 3-4 thousand songs that would, or could easily be added to a classic hits playlist. Some of them aren't even played but are easily recognizable in a heartbeat.

Please save some of that good stuff you're smoking because I'd like a toke or two ... it's been a while but I'll make an exception this time. I don't think anyone beside you, me, and maybe 20 others on these boards would recognize a song like ... ohh maybe "Roses and Rainbows" or "The Eggplant that ate Chicago" and those two probably would rank mid-way through your 4,000 song playlist.

BTW I have a buddy who used to tour with The Grassroots (not an original member but who is these days?!!)

I used to do sound for the 2nd drummer of the Grass Roots in another group... Ralph Gilmore a class act.

I'm just waiting for the reunion tour..

BTW - neither of those songs made the list but I will add them thanks for the reminder. Norman Greenbaum, Shafted and forgotten by so many.

 

[AZJoe]

I could easily say that I could think of close to 3-4 thousand songs that would, or could easily be added to a classic hits playlist. Some of them aren't even played but are easily recognizable in a heartbeat.

Please save some of that good stuff you're smoking because I'd like a toke or two ... it's been a while but I'll make an exception this time. I don't think anyone beside you, me, and maybe 20 others on these boards would recognize a song like ... ohh maybe "Roses and Rainbows" or "The Eggplant that ate Chicago" and those two probably would rank mid-way through your 4,000 song playlist.

BTW I have a buddy who used to tour with The Grassroots (not an original member but who is these days?!!)

Rob Grill is

 

[firepoint525]

For this problem to be solved, CHRs would need to immediately become more innovative in the way they program to 12-year-olds, then maybe in another generation or so, we would see more favorable results. But is already too late for our generation! We have now come to expect nothing from radio, and programmers deliver nothing for us! :

No station researches or talks to or even wants 12 year olds. There is no way to survive as a station by appealing to that demo or anything in 12 to 17.

David, David, David, where did I say anything about testing 12 to 17 year olds. Of course, they don't have any money! (Other than the allowance their parents give them, that is!)

What I said was that CHRs (notice that I didn't even mention oldies stations, here!) need to get their audiences more used to a wider variety of music NOW, so that a generation from now, when they are tested, they won't be so down on their own generation's music! (Now I could say here that today's music is junk, but that is a topic for another place and time.) What I am basically saying here is that our generation has apparently, sadly, forgotten a lot of the music that we grew up with! Our generation will (unfortunately for us) have to be written off! We will have to settle for the same handful of songs until we age out of the advertisers' preferred demo, and then, even those will be gone! :'(

Now do I think CHRs will start doing what I suggested in the last paragraph! Not on your life! They like things the way they are now! They like only needing to play a handful of songs to placate the masses! The fewer songs a given radio station plays, the easier it is for them to voice-track and automate every station they own from coast to coast with the same handful of songs! They LIKE bland boring radio because it is easier for them to program! That's why I said the results of these "tests" are little more than a foregone conclusion! It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy! ("See, I told you they didn't want to hear more than X00 songs!") : What they don't tell you is that they stifled dissent, and ran off everyone who disagreed with them! :

 

[firepoint525]

Most people who post here are NOT typical Oldies listeners. You have much wider taste and knowledge than
AVERAGE listener, who we MUST rely on to stay in business.

If this were the only message board I ever read, I would have no choice but to believe you here. However, I also read non-radio message boards, and occasionally the topic comes up (not initiated by me!) about why radio is so boring anymore! And they always come down heavily on these syndicated morning show yahoos who laugh at their own jokes! So you would have me to believe that stations can air that crap for four or five hours every morning, but they can't risk three minutes to play something someone somewhere might not have ever heard before? And if they have never heard it before, whose fault is that? Radio is scared of its own shadow these days! :

If Oldies stations play the best of the best, we add new listeners younger than 45. They hear MY GIRL and call the station and ask "who sang that?"

Why is that a problem? Just tell them, "the Temptations"! Maybe they want to find it on a CD or something. It never bothered me when I got calls at a former station inquiring about who sang something. I just simply told them! I figure that if radio can educate the listener, it should do so!