Aging talk hosts, listeners; AM dying

[leegart]

Hosts, listeners age. AM dying. Let's run some comedy, shall we?

New York may indeed be an exception or at least AM radio may somewhat thrive a bit longer there because of there are enough legacy powerhouse stations to make tuning the AM dial worth it. They have WFAN, WOR, WABC, WCBS, WINS, and WEPN that all have good signals and cover the NY metro area pretty well during the day. In our area, the only station really in that class in WBZ. It is not enough critical mass to have people keep coming back to AM, where in New York it may be.

Another factor is that most major AM stations also stream so news junkies in New York for example, might be listening to WCBS or WINS online rather than via RF while at home or work. That may also be true with here with WBZ. It will be interesting to see in the future whether the online audience might prolong their life spans.

 

[DG02816]

Daytime power increases for AM's - good idea, but you'd also get into issues of overlap, which on a lot of frequencies, would be  a mess. If the FCC doesn't crack down on power companies' arc-overs on badly maintained lines and the hash from LED traffic lights' power supplies, you'd need at least 250 kW to knock down the noise.  Here in Philly, running that much power on KYW would make the null to WEPN moot,and vice versa. Non-D class A's like WSM, WFAN, WCBS, and WLS would trample on each other. WLW 700 and CFZM 740 do get out well with their low frequencies and half-wave high towers. WLW did indeed operate at 500 kW in the 30s, and then-owner  Powel Crosley wanted to go to 1000 kW at one point.  If an AM on the Canadian or Mexican Class A frequencies wanted to run that kind of power, the US would have to bow out of NARBA, which limits power to 100 kW, with higher power granted to some Mexicans. Directional arrays to protect Mexico and Canada would be quite tricky at those power levels. Aaron, as far as WRNI 1290 goes, they were most likely 500 watts non-d  from 6 am to sunset, with no night power at all. Not sure when in the WICE days they went to 5 kW daytime, with the 3 tower array. When they ran their 1 kW night power, I'd hear WNBF Binghamtom NY, WFBG Altoona PA, and the now-silent WGLI  Babylon NY. Babylon's going off the air gave Providence the chance to go 5 kW at night. I'd hear all this from where I grew up in Coventry.

 

[JIBGUY]

New York may indeed be an exception or at least AM radio may somewhat thrive a bit longer there because of there are enough legacy powerhouse stations to make tuning the AM dial worth it.

I am still amazed on how Washington DC has/had no 50kw 1-A Clear stations. 1500 is the closest thing to it, but highly directional.

Also amazing is how there is no AM station that can be heard in the entire market, day and night.

Back in 1963, when I visited DC area, even then when the metro area hadn't spread out as far as it does now, Silver Spring, MD area stations didn't reach Arlington VA, and the Arlington VA area stations didn't reach Silver Spring MD.

At least in Boston (a similar population-numbered city), there are a few AM's that cover MOST of the market day and night: 590, 680, 890,1030, 1330, 1510, 1600

 

[Blackroc]

The nature of talk is hastening things but I'm not sure the decline --of AM talk-- wouldn't have happened anyway, even if it wasn't filled with people like Savage (and the others mentioned).
The full range of multimedia (Tv,Radio, print) has radically changed for me. And I'm someone who was a faithful talk listener at one time (over, for the most part).

I can't imagine a college age person listening to a traditional talk show now but maybe they do in some markets, who knows?
It would seem unlikely that the habit of listening to Tel-talk has any survivability chances. NPR and News stations should still retain some value.

 

[NHRadio]

Here in NH WFED 1500 often comes in like a local but I recently stayed in Waldorf MD and it was lost in the mush. Strange. Must be in a deep null or something.

 

[DGinnetty]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/talk-radio-ryan-seacrest-howard-stern-carson-daly-362825


Talk radio hosts (Geraldo: 68, Rush: 61, Howie: 60; Savage, 70; Ed Schultz, 58 ) and their listeners are aging and people
are fleeing to other elec. devices. "(Tom) Leykis predicts many AM stations will simply cease to exist in the coming years."

I think they forgot Sean hannity (50) 2nd most listened to show, Glenn Beck (48) 4th most, and Laura Ingraham (48) 7th.

They aren't ancient.

I also think that those same talk show hosts bring in NEW listeners, so it is not as if 16 million listeners started with Rush in 1989 and are starting to die off. If the content is worthy, then new listeners will come.

I started listening to talk radio in 1992 when I was 24. I still have 10 years left of prime demographic left in me!

I do think that podcasts and streaming content are a better option than trying to tune in a scratchy AM signal though.

 

[DanStrassberg]

WBZ won't have the ground wave coverage that WLW has because of their dial position (700 beats 1030 hands down), although I could pick them up regularly at night when I lived in the midwest.

The reason WBZ's signal at night in central Connecticut is not as good as WLW's has only a little to do with WBZ's higher frequency. The problem is that, at night, any 50 kW Class A AM has a dead band between its groundwave signal and its skywave signal. In much, if not all, of CT, you are too close to Hull to get a good skywave and too far away to get a good groundwave. True, the groundwave would be a bit better if WBZ were on 700 instead of 1030, but the 700 skywave, while somewhat less subject to fading, is--on average--a little weaker than it would be if it were at 1030.

Comparisons between WLW and WBZ are, in fact, a bit difficult. The soil conductivity in the Midwest is considerably better than that in New England. The better conductivity gives WLW and edge over WBZ. But WBZ's Hull Tx location is surrounded by salt water, which provides the best conductivity found in nature. Hard to compare the combination of salt water for the first 10 to 25 miles and rocks after that with WLW's situation, where the ground is quite conductive in all directions.

 

[Granite Guy]

The problems with the AM band were driven home to me yesterday afternoon as I was driving listening to a 5000 watt ND oldies station. A scant 5 (!!) miles from the transmitter I started to get power line interference. It got so bad you could look up and predict where the interference would start and stop.
Either AM stations need very large daytime power increases or the FCC needs to crack down on unintentional radiators. They've already got a big hard-on for CATV system leakage, why is this any different?

If you were listening recently and you're talking WEZS, I know they had some reduced power as they had tower issues last week.

 

[NHRadio]

I knew that, but this was after those were resolved and they were (or appeared to be) back at full power.

 

[DG02816]

NHRadio, here's a look at WFED's DA-2:

Day: http://fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php...SearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=1418234&sHours=D

Night: http://fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php...SearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=1418234&sHours=N
Seems the night pattern has a wide, shallow null to protect WLQV Detroit and KSTP Minneapolis. Were you listening day or night?

 

[NHRadio]

Thanks DG, that explains it. During the day it was fine but at night it appears Waldorf is smack in the null. Would a lower TPO allow them to run with a looser pattern but a decent signal inside the Beltway?

NHRadio, here's a look at WFED's DA-2:

Day: http://fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php...SearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=1418234&sHours=D

Night: http://fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php...SearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=1418234&sHours=N
Seems the night pattern has a wide, shallow null to protect WLQV Detroit and KSTP Minneapolis. Were you listening day or night?

 

[DanStrassberg]

Thanks DG, that explains it. During the day it was fine but at night it appears Waldorf is smack in the null. Would a lower TPO allow them to run with a looser pattern but a decent signal inside the Beltway?

The short answer is "no." The limiting case is ND. Were WFED to operate ND, it would be limited to a little less than 10 kW-CH and 1.2 kW-N. It might be allowed the full 50 kW during non-CH (D), however.

The 1500 story is long and complex. The FCC ultimately resolved it perhaps five or ten years ago after decades of wrangling among WFED (then WTOP), KSTP, and WLQV (which has had MANY call signs over the years). Each of the three stations was allowed to increase its nighttime and CH radiation toward the other two. None receives the statutory nighttime protection for stations of its class (A for WFED and KSTP and B for WLQV). The FCC ruling said that it would NOT allow the resolution of the 1500 schmongle to become a precedent for Class A stations that wanted to increase their nighttime (and CH) coverage of suburbs in their markets that lie in the direction of co-channel stations.

BTW, WLQV employs a nine-tower array and for several years used a 12-tower array. The 12-tower setup was intended to allow night operation with 5 kW, which was the power specified in the station's (then WJBK) move from 1490 to 1500 in the early 1950s. The original array used nine towers but it did not work and WJBK was limited to 1 kW at night. I believe that, even with 12 towers, the Detroit station was not permitted to operate with 5 kW at night and was allowed only 3.3 kW. The current night operation (10 kW with nine towers), is possible only because of major advances in DA design over the last half century and WLQV's relaxed protection of WFED and KSTP.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that the two of the key players in the 1500 saga were legendary group owners, Stanley Hubbard (KSTP) and George Storer (WJBK). Actually, I'd be surprised if a third legendary group owner, Bill Paley (CBS--WTOP), didn't also get involved at some point. With such big guns involved, you can bet that non-technical as well as technical issues played a role in the ultimate resolution of the protection problems. Another far less well-known player in the story was consulting engineer Thomas Z Sawyer. Sawyer applied method of moments, a technique new to DA design, to the WLQV array to resurrect it, so to speak. Sawyer's use of MoM at WLQV may have been the technique's first commercial use in DA design.

 

[carmen]

can get WFAN and WCBS during the daytime on my better AM radios. On those radios, if I turn the volume up all the way, I get WOR during the day. I seldom can get any other New York AM station during the day.

a capacitor tuned box-loop/coil will get you 770, 1010 (a SDR with LSB/ECSS to avoid WBZ's IBOC really helps here) and near noisefloor WNYC and some Philly stations... 1660 seems to be daytime skywave, it will fade out for a minute at a time then come back, and was better near solar minimum with SF 68...

 

[grover]

I've got a C. CRANE High End AM Radio was only $79 Dollars..GO TO THEIR WEBSITE
Picks up PHILLY.....OHIO...TORONTO...BALTIMORE and lots More..from BUCKSPORT MAINE
It has the special Tuned Antenna Circuit PLUS you can add an OUTDOOR ANTENNA
Can;t wait to try that!!

 

[raccoonradio]

Years ago I had a GE SuperRadio, pretty good recept on AM. It was $50 at the time I think

 

[NHRadio]

This one may require the expertise of the illustrious Mr. Strassberg...
Back in the 80's the Class IV C AMs went from 250 watts at night to 1000. The world didn't end.
Hence, what if all ND AMs 10kw or less increased their daytime power to say, 10k to help combat man made noise?
Trade fringe reception for better local coverage? I know the costs would be high and some owners can't (or won't) spend the money, but could it help or would it be just an expensive fiasco?

 

[DanStrassberg]

This one may require the expertise of the illustrious Mr. Strassberg... Back in the 80's the Class IV C AMs went from 250 watts at night to 1000. The world didn't end. Hence, what if all ND AMs 10kw or less increased their daytime power to say, 10k to help combat man made noise? Trade fringe reception for better local coverage? I know the costs would be high and some owners can't (or won't) spend the money, but could it help or would it be just an expensive fiasco?

The blanket increases on the Class IV (now Class C) AM channels were supposed to be straightforward because nearly all of the Class IVs supposedly had similar facilities (initially 250W-U ND-U), then for round 2, 1 kW-D/250W-N ND. Still turned into a pretty complicated mess because Class IIIs and some Class IIs (now Class Bs) on adjacent channels were affected and the facilities were hardly equal among all of those Class IV stations. While short towers were the rule, many stations had built half-wave towers, thus, in effect, operating with as much as three times the power of most of the Class IVs. What you are proposing would be a bigger mess from the outset. My guess is that you will never see a Class C-style blanket increase for Class B AMs. As it stands, Class B AMs can apply for increases on a case-by-case basis. Many have taken advantage of that option and a few of them have gone all the way (or almost all the way) to 50 kW-U. Examples are KJR and KTLK. KTLK on 1150 was able to diplex into the five very tall towers of KTNQ 1020.

 

[reelyreal]

I once had someone describe a blanket power increase as every person in a crowd yelling louder to be heard over the others.

 

[NHRadio]

I once had someone describe a blanket power increase as every person in a crowd yelling louder to be heard over the others.

A fair point, but the idea is to try for better reception in buildings and cars not bigger coverage areas...but it appears it would create more problems than it solves. Is there an answer to this epidemic of man made noise?
Even my CPAP device throws enough AM noise to make listening impossible.