Alice... remember Alice?

[Neanderpaul]

I guess I can never come home then...

Why doesn't KISS play it? Or WBZ? Because it's not what they do.

If your station can gamble on 20 minute tuneouts by abandoning your format several times a day...more power to you.

We came to the conclusion that we'd lose more than we'd gain by playing a 43-year old protest song, by an unfamiliar artist, on a station that focuses on an audience with no possible connection to the ideals presented.

What's "The Draft?"

What's the "Group W Bench?"

Why is that a scary thing?

What's a VW Microbus?

What's Vietnam?

Do I really know why "we" were so opposed to it?

What if my family served during that war, or I live in a red state where people look upon hippies & anti-war protesters as Unamerican?

Why does anyone under the age of 61 care?

Point being...the song is not "timeless." It's dated. And the sentiments aren't relevant to the guy here who grew up during the Reagan Administration. It's an anti-government folk-song whose time has long-since passed.

And so...we passed it off to the station (which our company owns) who plays CCR, CSN&Y and for whose audience, the song makes better sense.

Some traditions are better left to memory.

You know...like throwing rocks at buses. And Summerthing. Time moves on. Neither America, nor Boston are the same as it was 43 years ago. IMHO, radio's mistake is dictating what the audience wants, as opposed to serving their changing tastes.

We chose to serve. It remains to be seen if that one decision defines the station in this week's PPM.

"What you don't play, can't hurt you."

Guess we'll see.

Happy Thanksgiving Leftovers!

 

[mcamp]

I guess I can never come home then...

Why doesn't KISS play it? Or WBZ? Because it's not what they do.

If your station can gamble on 20 minute tuneouts by abandoning your format several times a day...more power to you.

We came to the conclusion that we'd lose more than we'd gain by playing a 43-year old protest song, by an unfamiliar artist, on a station that focuses on an audience with no possible connection to the ideals presented.

What's "The Draft?"

What's the "Group W Bench?"

Why is that a scary thing?

What's a VW Microbus?

What's Vietnam?

Do I really know why "we" were so opposed to it?

What if my family served during that war, or I live in a red state where people look upon hippies & anti-war protesters as Unamerican?

Why does anyone under the age of 61 care?

Point being...the song is not "timeless." It's dated. And the sentiments aren't relevant to the guy here who grew up during the Reagan Administration. It's an anti-government folk-song whose time has long-since passed.

And so...we passed it off to the station (which our company owns) who plays CCR, CSN&Y and for whose audience, the song makes better sense.

Some traditions are better left to memory.

You know...like throwing rocks at buses. And Summerthing. Time moves on. Neither America, nor Boston are the same as it was 43 years ago. IMHO, radio's mistake is dictating what the audience wants, as opposed to serving their changing tastes.

We chose to serve. It remains to be seen if that one decision defines the station in this week's PPM.

"What you don't play, can't hurt you."

I guess you are just missing the boat on this one...the thing about tradition is that we take the time to remember.
My 13 year old studied the Civil Rights Movement in school....we watched a bit of Born On the Fourth of July on TV last night...there was once a music festival called Woodstock, as was on called Altamont, where magic and tragedy happened. Lets just forget them all like it never happened so we can Rock and Roll All Night, and Party Every Day!!!

 

[raccoonradio]

There are those who want to remember, yes, and for some stations it doesn't apply because they have their own thing. This is why you won't hear Sinatra on WAAF, for example.

>>Because it's not what they do.

For a station like WZLX it'll work because they do have an audience that remembers, or a slightly younger audience
that is slightly familiar with the song and it's usually heard only 1 day a year, etc PBS had a great special about Lennon and it showed his battles with immigration, his "lost weekend" in L.A.,
sounds of him in the studio and doing some radio in NY (Lennon gives weather forecast as only he
can) and LA (takes requests). Ch 2's audience remembers and in some cases may learn stuff
they never knew (and responds with donations, thus these type of specials re-appearing during
begathons). Indeed the Draft isn't well known to the young (as for me, I think I was about 11
when it ended) (As for PBS/NPR, as you may know from my previous posts I am all for
de-funding it from the government and letting private contributions, foundations, and Mobil
Oil Corporation pay for it.)

>>It's dated. And the sentiments aren't relevant to the guy here who grew up during the Reagan Administration. It's an anti-government folk-song whose time has long-since passed.

Which is why it's relegated to certain stations, maybe once a year. It matters to some, not to others, of course. (Getting back to Lennon am reminded of a "Diversity Lane" cartoon-- a right-leaning comic strip--that showed a young girl looking in on her hippie-ish mother in front of
a stereo, mesmerized by a certain Lennon song that was playing. The young girl grimaces
and says "Imagine no 'Imagine'!" *

http://scottthong.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/diversitylaneimagine.jpg?w=450

Yeah I can make fun of hippies at times but Lennon did have some great music, even if not every
song he does may appeal to me. Appeals to some but not all, I see what you mean.

Then there are all the traditional Christmas songs being hammered to death over the next month or so. Here it may be "tradition" but it's also for making money--for stations, retailers, etc.
"There is nothing quite as beautiful as money" as Eric Idle once sang. And the Christmas
stations' jingle bells, as Freberg once showed us, are cash registers ringing.

"That's right..it's become Tradition!"

*--National Lampoon once poked fun at Lennon's song and the merchandising of John after his
death. In Letters FROM The Editors, it imagined Yoko writing in: "Dear Sirs: Imagine no
possessions. What a terrible, terrible thought."

 

[Neanderpaul]

I guess you are just missing the boat on this one...the thing about tradition is that we take the time to remember.
My 13 year old studied the Civil Rights Movement in school....we watched a bit of Born On the Fourth of July on TV last night...there was once a music festival called Woodstock, as was on called Altamont, where magic and tragedy happened. Lets just forget them all like it never happened so we can Rock and Roll All Night, and Party Every Day!!!

Am I missing the boat? Or, am I prioritizing?

I have bad news for you. Woodstock & Altamont have diminished relevance as well. The legends certainly exceed the actual events.

Try this...next time you're in a bar, ask the bartender to name 5 bands that played the original Woodstock. Ask people if they've seen Merideth Hunter naked. What do you suppose the response will be?

Based upon their expectations for your radio station, you have to pick n' choose which concepts are relevant to your audience. For us...that song is no longer relevant. That may be sad to some. But, it's reality for more than you might think.

Not every pop-culture event is timeless.

Were that the case, "Pac-Man Fever" & "Disco Duck" would still be in heavy rotation.

 

[mcamp]

I guess you are just missing the boat on this one...the thing about tradition is that we take the time to remember.
My 13 year old studied the Civil Rights Movement in school....we watched a bit of Born On the Fourth of July on TV last night...there was once a music festival called Woodstock, as was on called Altamont, where magic and tragedy happened. Lets just forget them all like it never happened so we can Rock and Roll All Night, and Party Every Day!!!

Am I missing the boat? Or, am I prioritizing?

I have bad news for you. Woodstock & Altamont have diminished relevance as well. The legends certainly exceed the actual events.

Try this...next time you're in a bar, ask the bartender to name 5 bands that played the original Woodstock. Ask people if they've seen Merideth Hunter naked. What do you suppose the response will be?

Based upon their expectations for your radio station, you have to pick n' choose which concepts are relevant to your audience. For us...that song is no longer relevant. That may be sad to some. But, it's reality for more than you might think.

Not every pop-culture event is timeless.

Were that the case, "Pac-Man Fever" & "Disco Duck" would still be in heavy rotation.

Just a few comments to your post: stations like Mike FM play songs like Billy Don't Be A Hero, It's Magic (by Pilot), The Night Chcago Died, etc...there really isn't any relevance to playing those songs anymore, but there they are.
Comparing Woodstock to Disco Duck is a reach...but then again Woodstock isn't relevant ...isn't funny how they staged a couple of huge concerts to commemorate the event, a movie came out not too long ago 'Taking Woodstock', etc...
I understand your "priorities"...I really do...but to diminish an event, or pop culture because it doesn't fit into your box, doesn't diminish the event/culture.

 

[Neanderpaul]

Just a few comments to your post: stations like Mike FM play songs like Billy Don't Be A Hero, It's Magic (by Pilot), The Night Chcago Died, etc...there really isn't any relevance to playing those songs anymore, but there they are.
Comparing Woodstock to Disco Duck is a reach...but then again Woodstock isn't relevant ...isn't funny how they staged a couple of huge concerts to commemorate the event, a movie came out not too long ago 'Taking Woodstock', etc...
I understand your "priorities"...I really do...but to diminish an event, or pop culture because it doesn't fit into your box, doesn't diminish the event/culture.

Well, let's first be realistic. The "commemorative" concerts were nothing more than a cash-grab. The latest in a series (along with the US Festivals & I hate-to-say-it but Live Aid)

They were calculated attempts to recreate an atmosphere that existed at the first Woodstock. Which, by business standards, was a colossal failure. It was never intended to be what it was. It was intended to be a money-making venture. However, poor planning resulted in the massive gate-crash that necessitated the "free concert" environment.

The reality being, it was the music downloading of its day. There was a price to pay, and the people chose not to. The organizers, not unlike the record industry, were not prepared for the rush, and surrendered to the hordes.

Let's not gloss over this thing too much in a quest to relive past glory.

There were horrible sanitary conditions, no real medical services, and a huge food shortage. Add to that, infinite delays in set times, and horrible weather. Woodstock, by today's standards, sucked. Were it have happened this weekend, that would be the verdict.

That being said, when you hear the tale told, you'd think the heavens parted, and the almighty decreed 3 whole days of love & peace & joy.

Nice story. Fiction.

Sound quality reportedly sucked. Lawsuits and debt amassed. Jobs were lost, and public officials voted out of office for the decision to hold the event. But, we speak of it in reverential terms because it was a cultural event that will never happen again.

Was it amazing? I don't know. I wasn't there. I don't care about most of the bands that were. It's not for me. And it's that rationale that I have to keep in mind when deciding not to play certain songs on a station that targets an "average listener" 20 years younger than said song. If you want to believe in the legend of certain pop culture events, that's great. Nobody's telling you you shouldn't. But, if the masses have moved on, and believe me they have, then it's your responsibility to move on with them.

A station that focuses on 100% pure "Classic" content, can embrace "Alice."

I cannot play Arlo Guthrie and Stone Sour on the same station. The audience has made it clear. And so, I listen to my customer.

 

[Deleted User]

I can see why some formats don't include it as a yearly ritual, and I can also see where it might be a regional thing, but around these parts, it is a tradition I look forward to.
How many listeners are you going to alienate at noontime on Thanksgiving anyway?

I had a no show client yesterday in the 2 to 3 PM time slot, that in my haste, got any spanish language music CD thrown in and played until my 3 PM client arrived and I let him start 30 minutes early with his show. I had a no show from 5:30 to 6 also.

Had I had any brains at all I would have brought my laptop into the air studio and played Alice's Restaurant. I thought of it this morning on the way to the station and had a " oh bleep" moment

I wonder how PO'd the GM would have been.

 

[ArtSpooner]

Coincidentally, Arlo was in the Macy's parade yesterday and he sang his father's song "This land is your land". Alice's Restuarant is a funny piece that I enjoy hearing once a year, even if it is a threat to the radio industry. Sheesh, somebody needs to lighten up.

 

[Neanderpaul]

Sheesh, somebody needs to lighten up.

It's a business. Never forget that. When your Sales dept. depends on every weekly PPM, it's my job to give them the biggest # possible.

That is the environment we work in. We must adapt.

Does it kill the soul of radio? Who's to say?

 

[WLYNWAZNgm]

As much as I personally like the song, along with the Thanksgiving
tradition of playing it, it would not go well with the WLYN format.
QUE?????

 

[Tom Wells]

I'm s'prised I don't play it. I play plenty of novelty and odd-ball stuff.
I DO like the song, and have always enjoyed it on the radio when I hear it.
I'm 49, and I remember thinking I would get drafted for sure, but it never happened.
I was a boy and teenager during the vietnam era, and remember being in summer camp during the week
the lottery was called. The evening paper ( this was 1971, OK? ) was brought to the camp and the 17-18 year old counselors
would all run like their life depended on it to see that paper.
Some of them did get their birthday called, and most of them took it pretty badly.

So while I was one step too young to hae this be "personally" meaningful, I can easily identify with it.

A lot of whether something is relevant, now or later in life, has a lot to do with whether one's perspective
is or isn't inclusive of "history", etc.
If one has no curiousity about the past, how much attention can they pay to the present,
how much vision for the future CAN they be expected to have?
I see it as a closed-mind/open mind thing.


Now how about " Bomb Iran" from 1980?

How about Kay Kyser's " Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition"?
or.... "Remember Pearl Harbor" or "Hip Hip Hooray, We're Livin in the USA" by Dick Jurgens?
Shall we not play "Der Fuhrer's Face" by Spike Jones?
"Eve of Destruction" by Barry Mc Guire?

Time changes how we collectively "hear" such songs.

But what about " Who Will Take Grandma?' by Walter Brennan?
Grandmas are timeless....

It's a lot like the argument in academia regarding "classic literature", or any "set" of data under consideration.
As data grows, we either DO or DON'T expect ourselves and others to be informed of "reference", the past, things
that may or may not be relevant except by choice, or actual facts that cannot be argued away.

Some things we should drag along as traditions.

A basic tenet that business thinking has killed is that tradition and experience have value.
You can't sell a tradition like this.....it's not something that can be commercialized like Christmas.
So it comes down to whether you expect your listeners are those will approve or disapprove of such musical detours.


If anything has a soul in it, business can kill it. Radio will always be possible as long the laws of physics exist.
Broadcast radio- "the business" has done much to commodify the product to the point that having "soul" is a bit more than
many stations are willilng to risk.

 

[mcamp]

Just a few comments to your post: stations like Mike FM play songs like Billy Don't Be A Hero, It's Magic (by Pilot), The Night Chcago Died, etc...there really isn't any relevance to playing those songs anymore, but there they are.
Comparing Woodstock to Disco Duck is a reach...but then again Woodstock isn't relevant ...isn't funny how they staged a couple of huge concerts to commemorate the event, a movie came out not too long ago 'Taking Woodstock', etc...
I understand your "priorities"...I really do...but to diminish an event, or pop culture because it doesn't fit into your box, doesn't diminish the event/culture.

Well, let's first be realistic. The "commemorative" concerts were nothing more than a cash-grab. The latest in a series (along with the US Festivals & I hate-to-say-it but Live Aid)

They were calculated attempts to recreate an atmosphere that existed at the first Woodstock. Which, by business standards, was a colossal failure. It was never intended to be what it was. It was intended to be a money-making venture. However, poor planning resulted in the massive gate-crash that necessitated the "free concert" environment.

The reality being, it was the music downloading of its day. There was a price to pay, and the people chose not to. The organizers, not unlike the record industry, were not prepared for the rush, and surrendered to the hordes.

Let's not gloss over this thing too much in a quest to relive past glory.

There were horrible sanitary conditions, no real medical services, and a huge food shortage. Add to that, infinite delays in set times, and horrible weather. Woodstock, by today's standards, sucked. Were it have happened this weekend, that would be the verdict.

That being said, when you hear the tale told, you'd think the heavens parted, and the almighty decreed 3 whole days of love & peace & joy.

Nice story. Fiction.

Sound quality reportedly sucked. Lawsuits and debt amassed. Jobs were lost, and public officials voted out of office for the decision to hold the event. But, we speak of it in reverential terms because it was a cultural event that will never happen again.

I think where we differ on our opinions...it goes beyond playing or not playing "Alice".
You are taking a revisionist history approach.
You talk about the show being a money making event...no, really...I thought it was an elaborate way of losing millions like it did...as did the original show did, but only recouped money because of the film and albums that followed...as for the Woodstock commemorative shows....you refer to them as "cash grabs". What in our society isn't. Do you work for nothing, or your company isn't concerned with making money?? The performers didn't play for nothing either. It is the music industry, one that you are part of....with the interest of making money, not love.
As for the 1994 (25th aniversary) show....the people I know that were in attendance all had a great time.

Woodstock holds a definitive place in rock and roll history, whether you think so or not.
It has been over 40 years since the show happened, and was a defining moment for many of the performers, who to this day are still very popular. The movie and all other documented accounts play out a very idealistic time...the show took on a life of it's own...yes, something like it will never be recreated in our calculated times, where every moment of every day is people trying to figure out how to squeeze out every advertising dollar. There used to be a time where people like Bill Graham, and others like him were not solely interested in making money...who else would have put Miles Davis on a bill with the Grateful Dead, or Moby Grape, Fugs, Gary Burton Quartet on the same bill. I guess Montery Pop was just another concert too.

 

[Neanderpaul]

I think where we differ on our opinions...it goes beyond playing or not playing "Alice".
You are taking a revisionist history approach.
You talk about the show being a money making event...no, really...I thought it was an elaborate way of losing millions like it did...as did the original show did, but only recouped money because of the film and albums that followed...as for the Woodstock commemorative shows....you refer to them as "cash grabs". What in our society isn't. Do you work for nothing, or your company isn't concerned with making money?? The performers didn't play for nothing either. It is the music industry, one that you are part of....with the interest of making money, not love.
As for the 1994 (25th aniversary) show....the people I know that were in attendance all had a great time.

Woodstock holds a definitive place in rock and roll history, whether you think so or not.
It has been over 40 years since the show happened, and was a defining moment for many of the performers, who to this day are still very popular. The movie and all other documented accounts play out a very idealistic time...the show took on a life of it's own...yes, something like it will never be recreated in our calculated times, where every moment of every day is people trying to figure out how to squeeze out every advertising dollar. There used to be a time where people like Bill Graham, and others like him were not solely interested in making money...who else would have put Miles Davis on a bill with the Grateful Dead, or Moby Grape, Fugs, Gary Burton Quartet on the same bill. I guess Montery Pop was just another concert too.

Unfortunately, therein lies the difference.

Programming radio is about broadcasting. How many people were at Woodstock '94? How many do you know? What percentage of that is your potential total audience every day? How many people can even name the big bands of Woodstock '94? How many of them are still relevant to a 42-year old male Rock fan? The ones that are, we still play. Exactly six of the 60+ artists that played in 1994 are relevant to the audience of our station. So, how relevant would Arlo Guthrie be?

These are all of the questions I considered when deciding whether, or not to play "Alice."

I chose not to.

And, in the end, it appears to have been the correct choice. To date, I've received exactly two e-mails regarding the decision. Both from women in their 50's. We had a discussion on the station FB page with listeners. And there was little overall interest. In fact, I saw some passion for our decision to finally give the song up.

Our phone lines did not light up asking for the song. Our station e-mail was not flooded with inquiries.

...Nobody really cared either way.

If they did, they certainly didn't express it. Which could be indicative of a much bigger problem. However, I'm not about to use this song as a litmus test for the overall interest in our station's playlist.

..which further illustrates my point. It's just not important enough to my audience in 2010.

I'll certainly take a look at the hourly breakouts when the PPM report comes in for Thanksgiving week. Although with the anemic # of meters in a market this size, what will that really tell us?

But that...is an entirely different tangential discussion.

 

[Oldbones]

Curiously, when did this tradition start? I don't remember it much before the mid-late 80s. Certainly not to the extent of the last 15 +/- years where every remotely rock-oriented station is expected to play it.

Neanderpaul, did you get any negative reaction from your audience?

 

[Deleted User]

I remember playing it back in my on air days around 1979 or 80 on Thanksgiving, and BCN was doing it then IIRC

 

[robotique]

Please excuse my ignorance.... why is this song played on thanksgiving?????

fyi i'm 35 years old...not some young kid. i just dont get the connection...and have never heard of it as a tradition.

 

[raccoonradio]

The story Arlo tells in the song is that Arlo and friends wanted to get rid of a bunch of garbage at an old church* that Alice was using as a home. The dump was closed as it was Thanksgiving but they wound up dumping their trash anyway and he was identified by a letter found at the bottom of the garbage...the song has more details as does
the 1969 film. Because the event took place on Thanksgiving, hence the airplay

>>On that Thanksgiving, November 25, 1965, the 18-year-old Guthrie and his friend Richard Robbins, 19, were arrested by Stockbridge police officer William "Obie" Obanhein for illegally dumping some of Alice's garbage after discovering that the town dump was closed for the holiday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice's_restaurant

By the way I believe "Officer Obie" was painted by Norman Rockwell in one of his famous
paintings, that of a little boy who runs away and is seated at a diner next to a police
officer, him. One edition of "Car Talk", recorded before a live audience at Johnny D's IIRC,
had Arlo as a special guest. Arlo tells the Tappet Brothers that his VW microbus broke down
and they tell him they'll get to him eventually, and he's sent into a back room to wait.
Arlo: "Hey, Officer Obie--what are you doin' here!" (laughs from crowd) I may still have that
show on tape somewhere.

*--The church is actually in Great Barrington, and later became The Guthrie Center

 

[Neanderpaul]

We got exactly one e-mail complaint. From a guy who referenced Savoy Brown and the "Paul is dead" experience from back in the day.

Our station plays GnR, Metallica, Ozzy, AC/DC, Stone Sour etc.

So...he isn't the target, and we made the right choice.

Some traditions are best left to memory, or passed along to those who can appreciate them.

 

[raccoonradio]

oops--I note further down that while Officer Obie did pose for "Policeman With Boys" for Rockwell it was not him in the "Runaway" painting, but a trooper named Richard Clemens. Obie did play himself in the film at least part of which can be seen on YouTube. Obie told Newsweek in '69 that if someone was going to make him look like fool, better to play the role himself than have someone
else make him look like a fool...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BHUQ56AWwI