Alternative or Country to reappear in NYC

[ansky212]

People are craving good rock music. Rock music & rock fans still live on, in NY.

You could say the same thing about Country. From what I read, the Kenny Chesney concert last summer was one of the highest (if not the highest) grossing concert in the NYC area. Yet we have no country radio station. NYC is large enough that you'll find fans of any music, but unfortunately not all genres are successful on the radio.

 

[Gregg]

Webster Hall has a capacity of a few hundred people. Glad they enjoyed the Black Keys. But it doesn't really tell us anything. When Radio City hosts concerts featuring Indian pop artists or Chinese pop artists, they can play several nights in that venue that seats more than 1000. But NYC isn't going to get an Indian pop or Chinese pop music station, just like it won't be getting a Country or Dance or Alternative Rock station anytime soon.

No general manager wants to repeat the mistakes so recently made by another radio owner. So that means no Alternative Rock or Country station for many years to come. Tony Santiago may understand the difference between what WKTU does and what a Dance format might be, but few general managers do. So to them, WKTU and 92 Now are close enough to Dance as to make a true Dance station unlikely. And as stated above, FM News 101.9 is now running lots of TV commercials and has re-formated itself into a more serious news station. So it's not changing anytime soon either.

Every week or two, you hear of another big market getting an FM Sports station. Boston and Philly now have two. Today's news has an Oldies FM station in New Orleans flipping to Sports. If WBLS were to be sold, the new owner would likely put Sports on 107.5.


Gregg
[email protected]

 

[TheWitch]

I knew someone would say something about the capacity of webster hall. I did say that it was one example.The point was ...people are crowding into venues to see bands that are not avidly played on the radio here. There is still the want and need for rock music. How does anyone on this forum know for sure, what music is going to come or not going to come to New York? All it takes is someone bold enough to take a chance.

 

[Jeffrey]

People are craving good rock music. Rock music & rock fans still live on, in NY.

You could say the same thing about Country. From what I read, the Kenny Chesney concert last summer was one of the highest (if not the highest) grossing concert in the NYC area. Yet we have no country radio station. NYC is large enough that you'll find fans of any music, but unfortunately not all genres are successful on the radio.

Alot of musical genres sell out concerts in New York. Keep in mind that many of the concert goers are not necessarily local either. Country 92.5 in Hartford routinely advertises and gives away tickets for country music concerts in NYC. The same is true for Thunder 106 in NJ and undoubtedly upstate NY country stations as well. You certainly can't program a radio station based on concert ticket sales.

 

[Jeffrey]

I knew someone would say something about the capacity of webster hall. I did say that it was one example.The point was ...people are crowding into venues to see bands that are not avidly played on the radio here. There is still the want and need for rock music. How does anyone on this forum know for sure, what music is going to come or not going to come to New York? All it takes is someone bold enough to take a chance.

It's not as simple as that. Radio is a business. Want and need have little to do with the research based decisions media giants make as to what formats they put on in various markets.

 

[atlantaboy]

103.5 KTU do you think they will go back to leaning more dance to protect Z or flip to Alternative as Radio 103.5 like their sister station Radio 104.5 in Philly?

Have you seen KTUs ratings? They'd have to be insane to flip to Alternative

I wonder if part of the reason Country and Alternative aren't successful in NYC is that such a high percentage of the radio listening base doesn't drive - same reason why PLJ's ratings are so high in Jersey and so low in the city itself

Alternative depends on higher income listeners, and I wonder if it's safe to say that most higher income listeners in and around the city never listen to the radio (cause they don't commute)

 

[TonySantiago]

I'll always know & argue the point, that NYC is a rock town. The clubs I go see bands in, are always packed with people in their 20's to people in their 50's! Webster hall was packed when I went to see the Black keys a short time ago. That's just one example. People are craving good rock music. Rock music & rock fans still live on, in NY.

Sorry for the length......

Believe me when I say that I feel your passion! For you it's rock and for me it's dance music .

I should have clarified that what I meant by New York not being a rock town was in terms of radio. Yes you still have Q-104 but when you compare it to the past where there were more AOR outlets ('PLJ, 'NEW, 'APP, K-Rock, 'RXP, and sure throw 'LIR in for the alternative side) it is not as strong as it used to be...in NYC proper. However for suburbia, you still have 'DHA out in NJ, 'BAB in Long Island, 'PDH in the Hudson Valley and 'PLR covering Fairfield/New Haven counties in CT that still have a strong base. For the demos, the rock audience went out to the suburbs in that sense. That's not to say that rock fans don't pack in venues such as Webster Hall, the smaller venues along Bleecker St, and certainly the arenas and stadiums (I saw the Police at the Meadowlands a few years ago and had a great time!).

I think the problem, in terms rock music today, is that the music in itself hasn't really had a "revolution" since grunge. You may still have some younger folks going to rock concerts, but when you take a listen to 92.3 Now and Z-100, you'd be hard pressed to hear something rock oriented in the format. It's basically all rhythmic/rap oriented, and we can definitely say that Maroon 5 and Gym Class Heroes don't really fall under "rock" per se. It's just the cycle of things. That's not to say however that rock is by all means dead.

You also have a conflict with purists that feel that anything after the 1980's isn't "real" rock (around the time new wave kicked in). So when they hear something on a later era, they bash on it and stick to what they feel is "true" (Aerosmith, Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, The Who, etc.). That was the big problem with 'RXP because there were so many arguments about their presentation in terms of being "all over the place"

I'm going to go left field on this one but if you look carefully you may see something . I think a lot of what is going on with dance music today with the younger crowd had to do with the video game "Dance Dance Revolution". That game came out over 12 years ago and the teens back then flooded the arcade dancing on a metal floor following the moves of the screen with energetic dance music in the background. They took that experience with them and now that those teens are in their twenty-somethings, they are still following the music subconsciously based on that.

Fast forward...."Guitar Hero" came out a few years ago where today's teens are following along with the notes of a guitar and are strumming to rock tunes. If the pattern holds true then towards the end of this decade, those teens will be in their twenty somethings enjoying whatever rock styling comes out. Thus a new cycle.

Honestly, I do think there is room for an alternative AND a country station here. Country music today is certainly not the "twang" of the past when you see folks such as Taylor Swift, Dierks Bentley, Keith Urban, Carrie Underwood sell out events here. I think alternative CAN happen....IF YOU ADD "DUBSTEP" into the format because if there is anything close to what rock means in terms of angst and rebellion, dubstep (though classified as "EDM") fits the bill. There is a large suburban area here so it would cover well for that audience as well as those in NYC that are into it.

As for me, a dance/rhythmic station that caters to a younger audience CAN work now and has the strongest chance to bill. All of the trends as of late are leaning towards EDM (Electronic Dance Music). EVEN NPR wrote an article about it!

Right now you have 92.3 Now as the most dance friendly but they ARE CHR. 'KTU gears towards an older audience, even with their current based rhythmic/AC format. They may say they get the younger audience, but put up a station that I'm talking about and those young demos go bye-bye to the new place. Z-100 is CHR and because of their affiliation with 'KTU (Clear Channel), they can't go any deeper than what 'KTU does.

We also have a conflict too in terms of presentation, lol. You had Pulse 87 a few years ago that had their format catered towards an outer-borough audience in terms of what they hear in the clubs outside of the underground venues in Manhattan, along with an older brand of dance music in the 80's, still popular here, known as freestyle. But within the past three years, EDM really shot up in terms of the DJ culture. Now, those DJ's are being treated like "rock stars" and huge venues such as Electric Zoo on the Labor Day weekend sell out. Places such as Roseland, Hammerstein Ballroom that have EDM DJ's sell out too. One DJ/producer group "Swedish House Mafia" sold out MSG in under 10 minutes a few months ago! A lot of the lean in terms of popular culture has shifted that way.

So the question (which I did a topic on)...does a NEW dance station capitalize on what the EDM trends are right now, in terms of being VERY current leaning, along with the commercial aspect of the music as being played by 92.3 Now and a few recurrents going as far back as 10 years? Or do they still lean on an outer borough edge and still have freestyle in there, on rotation, as if it was 1988.

"Witch", I wish for you that you get your rock station. Take this from me....start documenting your argument and look at EVERYTHING...not just the rock venues but what the rock fans buy, wear, go. Because that's all that advertisers and corporate care about.

Good luck!

 

[TonySantiago]

Tony Santiago may understand the difference between what WKTU does and what a Dance format might be, but few general managers do.

Do I dare say this? Okay.....

BRING ME ON!

Some of these PD's that have/had run stations like this may "hate" on me but seriously, right now there couldn't be a BETTER time for this music to get back on the FM in the way that can really sell to potential advertisers.

[email protected]

 

[Jersey Maiden]

I think the problem, in terms rock music today, is that the music in itself hasn't really had a "revolution" since grunge. You may still have some younger folks going to rock concerts, but when you take a listen to 92.3 Now and Z-100, you'd be hard pressed to hear something rock oriented in the format. It's basically all rhythmic/rap oriented, and we can definitely say that Maroon 5 and Gym Class Heroes don't really fall under "rock" per se. It's just the cycle of things. That's not to say however that rock is by all means dead.

You also have a conflict with purists that feel that anything after the 1980's isn't "real" rock (around the time new wave kicked in). So when they hear something on a later era, they bash on it and stick to what they feel is "true" (Aerosmith, Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, The Who, etc.). That was the big problem with 'RXP because there were so many arguments about their presentation in terms of being "all over the place"

I find it ironic that Foster the People started hitting it big on Z100 soon after RXP flipped. Still, rock artists who cross over to CHR are few and far in between. And I would say people who argued that RXP was "all over the place" haven't listened to WRFF or even defunct stations like Grock and Krock circa 2003. Personally, I thought RXP's playlist wasn't broad enough and they could have learned a thing or two from WRFF about which artists to include. That's not to say they sucked, I do miss them terribly and want them to come back before next Christmas, just saying that there was room for improvement. And as I said before, they managed a 2.5 share in their last book. I think that had Emmis not been in debt, they could have gained a 3.0 after a few more months. It's just too bad they were sold just as they were hitting their stride.

As for what's happening with 92.3 (and don't forget Hot 97, I heard Give Me Everything in the morning), that can be a double-edged sword. Sure, the trend is pointing toward EDM but will radio executives see the need for a full time station if the genre is getting spread across 2 CHR's and 1 urban? And while I'm not as passionate about dance as you, if the format you want kicks vagina news off the air, I'm all for it.

I wonder if part of the reason Country and Alternative aren't successful in NYC is that such a high percentage of the radio listening base doesn't drive - same reason why PLJ's ratings are so high in Jersey and so low in the city itself

I was thinking the same thing. When I went to college and didn't have a car, I never listened to OTA radio and those who commute by mass transit probably don't either. There was an article about the demise of RXP (can't find it anymore) that mentioned how the formats in New York don't accurately reflect the tastes of its population as accurately as car-centered cities like LA. My dad has a 5 minute drive to the train station so his tuning in probably doesn't register as a drop in the ratings.

And as stated above, FM News 101.9 is now running lots of TV commercials and has re-formated itself into a more serious news station. So it's not changing anytime soon either.

What do you think they would flip to if FM News fails? I'm not expecting them to flip tomorrow or even a few months from now (I'm sure Merlin is going to be patient) but you gotta wonder how long their cash flow will last when their ratings are so low.

 

[WNTIRadio]

New York is an "Urban Town". It's also a "Spanish Town" too if you want to get right down to it. Is it a rock town? Nope, not anymore. Maybe back in 1975, but even then it was never a ratings killer.

Both of those formats aren't dance. I really don't think there is that big a slice of the pie for dance to make a viable station. And if the familiar music goes away on KTU, then so does most of your money demo. There's too much on the line financially to take it in another direction. And it's doing well, so sorry Tony, I think your chances of being PD of KTU are about the same as mine.

92.7 is getting almost zero ratings... They're an also ran Spanish signal, so they have nothing to lose by trying something else, without the giant risk of all the expenses of a full class B in NYC. If I owned that, I would bring Tony on and give him 18 months to prove himself right or wrong.

 

[radioguy39nj]

Every week or two, you hear of another big market getting an FM Sports station. Boston and Philly now have two. Today's news has an Oldies FM station in New Orleans flipping to Sports. If WBLS were to be sold, the new owner would likely put Sports on 107.5.


Gregg
[email protected]

Depends on who the new owner is. We all know ESPN craves and needs an FM in New York. If ESPN lands on FM at 107.5 or wherever, CBS' hand could be forced to blow up an FM for WFAN-FM.

 

[davideduardo]

I wonder if part of the reason Country and Alternative aren't successful in NYC is that such a high percentage of the radio listening base doesn't drive - same reason why PLJ's ratings are so high in Jersey and so low in the city itself

Alternative depends on higher income listeners, and I wonder if it's safe to say that most higher income listeners in and around the city never listen to the radio (cause they don't commute)

Nationally, about 70% of radio listening is NOT in the car. In NYC, the figure is about 75%. While the in-car, at home and at work listening analysis we have is diary based, there is little reason to think that, were the PPM to distinguish between at work and in-car, it would be any different; the at home listening is quite the same in both methodologies.

Since all stations play on the same field in ratings surveys, all that mattters is knowing that the bulk of radio listening is not in the car.

Stations like WPLJ do less well in the City than in suburbia because the city has a very different ethnic mix, and the ethnicities that are stratification variables, Black and Hispanic, represent vastly larger percentages in the City. WPLJ's format is not as interesting to either ethnic group, thus the lesser listening where much of the audience is ethnic.

 

[MarcR]

There was a survey of college educated persons 25 years of age and older that found that, indeed, the car is pretty much the only enviornment where they'll tune into terrestrial radio. I think it's probably because the car, especially at the time the survey was published (2008), creates a captive enviornment where there aren't many other alternatives. That, of course, will soon change over the course of this decade, and terrestrial radio will continue to lose the college educated demographic.

 

[MarcR]

I'll always know & argue the point, that NYC is a rock town. The clubs I go see bands in, are always packed with people in their 20's to people in their 50's! Webster hall was packed when I went to see the Black keys a short time ago. That's just one example. People are craving good rock music. Rock music & rock fans still live on, in NY.

The commercial radio companies aren't interested in the young people with a future who attend such shows. They're only interested in urban youth and young adults who read at a 4th grade proficiency and wear their pants down to their ankles, or perhaps the so-called "soccer moms" from Jersey. Even the rapidly ageing boomers seemingly have a few choices (CBS-FM and Q 104/3)!

 

[davideduardo]

There was a survey of college educated persons 25 years of age and older that found that, indeed, the car is pretty much the only enviornment where they'll tune into terrestrial radio. .

Of course, ad agencies and other larger advertisers that buy based on ratings don't look at studies like the one you describe. They look at the ratings books, because that is how they can establish a value per spot.

 

[davideduardo]

There was an article about the demise of RXP (can't find it anymore) that mentioned how the formats in New York don't accurately reflect the tastes of its population as accurately as car-centered cities like LA. My dad has a 5 minute drive to the train station so his tuning in probably doesn't register as a drop in the ratings.

Many such articles have assumed that the average driving time in LA is greater than in, let's say, Kansas City. What is seldom taken into account is that people try to live reasonably close to their jobs. While it might take 2 hours in peak traffic times to drive from one end of the LA market to the other, the average commute is not anything like that.

New York has about 25% lower in-car listening than the average of all other markets (see caveats in another post) due to higher use of public transit, but it's the exception. In any case, the bulk of radio listening in the New York MSA is at home and at work... fully 75%.

 

[Jersey Maiden]

I'll always know & argue the point, that NYC is a rock town. The clubs I go see bands in, are always packed with people in their 20's to people in their 50's! Webster hall was packed when I went to see the Black keys a short time ago. That's just one example. People are craving good rock music. Rock music & rock fans still live on, in NY.

The commercial radio companies aren't interested in the young people with a future who attend such shows. They're only interested in urban youth and young adults who read at a 4th grade proficiency and wear their pants down to their ankles, or perhaps the so-called "soccer moms" from Jersey. Even the rapidly ageing boomers seemingly have a few choices (CBS-FM and Q 104/3)!

I'm a college graduate and I listen to urban radio. Hot 97 actually does better in Middlesex-Somerset-Union than the overall New York market. Go to any middle class suburban high school or college parking lot in the spring and you'll hear more than a few rap songs blaring from the windows. The point is that hip hip stations get a good mix of young listeners from different walks of life. Someone in the WBLS thread mentioned that urban CHR gets as much as 50% non black cume. In the meantime, let's see how long it takes for Mark Jeffries to dispute that radio companies are interested in those who read at a 4th grade level.

 

[ansky212]

In any case, the bulk of radio listening in the New York MSA is at home and at work... fully 75%.

Does this include online listening? I find the "at work" part hard to believe, as it is so difficult to pull in radio signals in office buildings. My current office is about 15 miles due west of NYC and I sit by a window facing the city yet I still can't pull in a usable FM signal. When I worked in midtown Manhattan I had no chance of pulling in a signal unless I was in a room with a window facing towards Empire.

 

[TonySantiago]

Both of those formats aren't dance. I really don't think there is that big a slice of the pie for dance to make a viable station. And if the familiar music goes away on KTU, then so does most of your money demo. There's too much on the line financially to take it in another direction. And it's doing well, so sorry Tony, I think your chances of being PD of KTU are about the same as mine.

After all these years, 'KTU wouldn't have me!

92.7 is getting almost zero ratings... They're an also ran Spanish signal, so they have nothing to lose by trying something else, without the giant risk of all the expenses of a full class B in NYC. If I owned that, I would bring Tony on and give him 18 months to prove himself right or wrong.

Hypothetically speaking, that's all I would need

 

[Dick Skinner]

I'll always know & argue the point, that NYC is a rock town. The clubs I go see bands in, are always packed with people in their 20's to people in their 50's! Webster hall was packed when I went to see the Black keys a short time ago. That's just one example. People are craving good rock music. Rock music & rock fans still live on, in NY.

Nobody goes to Webster Hall anymore. It's too crowded.