Alternative Rock in Cleveland

[CleveFan]

The Alternative format has become a format that has gone away not once, but now twice. First in 1999, when WENZ flipped from "The End" to "Kiss 107.9" and now "Z107.9" as Hip-Hop and R&B. Now in 2011, when WKRK went from "Radio 92.3" (after being known as "92.3 Xtreme Radio," "92.3X," and "92.3 K-Rock") to "92.3 The Fan" as Sports Talk. I'm wondering if the format can be brought back on another station, but if so, which one?

I'm thinking WMMS, since they're the ones that gained the most audience since WKRK flipped. They've also started leaning more alternative as well, though they still play the occasional Classic Rock song. Two problems though: The AM and PM Drive talk shows and Cleveland Browns games. The talk shows and games are very popular draws to the station, but with no alt-rock format in place, you have to wonder what WMMS would do if they changed their music format. I will say the station sounds more focused since The Fan's arrival. Much better than before.

WNWV should tweak their format to Alternative, but they seem like they would rather be focused on being the type of station they were before WKRK's format change - an all over the place rock station that tries to be "unique" and "different." They succeeded in being different, but failed in being unique. The classic rock, weird stuff, more poppy songs and just an overall unexciting presentation makes the station difficult to listen to at times. They need to make more music adjustments and have a better jock presentation. They have the music there, but seem stubborn to make a radical change to fill a new void.

I've seen the "Radio 92.3" Facebook page, and the fans are ANGRY! They don't have an option for a station that they can listen to. WMMS or WNWV can make an adjustment, but I wonder if they are acutally willing to do so.

 

[Tim]

Now you understand how us smooth jazz fans feel!

WNWV used to cume 250,000-400,000 weekly...but, that audience didn't generate what the station's owners felt was enough ad revenue.

These nitch formats apparently are too small for over-the-air radio stations. The obvious thing is look on-line for streaming stations.

If I were you Cleve Fan, and other alternative fans...I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for WMMS or WNVW (etc.) will become a music-heavy alternative format. Apparenly neither of our favorite music formats are mass-appeal enough for radio.

 

[vjm]

Now you understand how us smooth jazz fans feel!

WNWV used to cume 250,000-400,000 weekly...but, that audience didn't generate what the station's owners felt was enough ad revenue.

These nitch formats apparently are too small for over-the-air radio stations. The obvious thing is look on-line for streaming stations.

If I were you Cleve Fan, and other alternative fans...I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for WMMS or WNVW (etc.) will become a music-heavy alternative format. Apparenly neither of our favorite music formats are mass-appeal enough for radio.

If MMS was soley a music station, then they might think about alt-rock. But 100.7 is a testosteron feuled radio man-cave where music is a side attraction.

Man talk (namely Rover and Cox), and the Browns stir the drink, and anything else is just a side dish.

The best you can hope for is a bit more alt-rock mixed in with the metal and classic rock. But full time alt-rock...ain't gonna happen.

 

[AllMightyVoice]

If your west of Cleveland then BW college station 88.3fm is a very good alternative rock option. They lean very heavy on new stuff with older stuff sprinkled in and are more of what I'd consider a "true" alternative station than what 92.3 was. Radio923 wasn't an awful staion, but hearing Red Hot Chili Peppers every stinkin hour got old for me.

With FM moving more and more towards talk I can't see Cleveland having another alt rocker similar anytime soon. I'd say 107.3 is the most likely to switch, but they seem committed to going after the more adult music crowd. They really should include more 90s alt tracks though, I think that would play well to their audience. I agree with you too, their presentation is a snooze-fest.

In my opinion the alternative music crowd skews too young and is to involved with technology to be viable. Why turn on the radio when you can stream in your smart phone or load up your rhapsody playlist? Call me old fashioned, I'm younger and prefer radio...at least for now, but I think I'm in the minority on that in my age group.

 

[HHH]

Yes, WBWC on 88.3 is an excellent choice for alternative rock.

Also, if you are within range, WSTB on 88.9 from a tower on the Kent State U. Campus---"The Alternation"---is alt every day around the clock except Sunday.

Also, WAPS in Akron (91.3) plays some alt, but is really more of an Adult Alternative station.

Try these on your car radio, which are about the only decent FM tuners still made. All the home radios suck including most component stereos unless you pay some big bucks.

 

[MarkW]

The people running V107.3 apparently are complete morons.

Their first missed opportunity was not picking up the Variety Hits format (eventually adopted by 106.5) when they had the chance. Now, 106.5 The Lake is enjoying massive ratings success whereas V107.3 is consistently among the lowest rated stations in the market. Why on earth they'd choose a AAA format in a blue-collar market such as Cleveland when there was a gaping hole for Variety Hits is beyond me.

Their most recent missed opportunity is not picking up a replica of the modern rock format previously found on 92.3. Radio 92-3 enjoyed a much larger audience than what V107.3 currently enjoys.

To me, it'd be a no-brainer. V107.3 is NEVER going to be competitive with the likes of 106.5 The Lake, WMJI, or WNCX. Why not adopt a format that they could "own" instead?

I'd be curious to know -- how strong is 98.1 WKDD's signal in Greater Cleveland overall? Does that station still bill well in Akron? Would it make sense to flip that station to Modern Rock w/ an orientation toward Cleveland? Seems to me that WKDD is only a shadow of its former self.

 

[VODood]

@MarkW... well, MIX was dead in the water for a number of years. "Lake" is Mix rebranded. And "Lake" is what "Mix" should've evolved to years ago. So WNWV didn't drop the ball.

Regarding AAA. I think AAA can do well in Cleveland if done properly. There's all sorts of AAA's, like there are classic hits formats (some pop based like WMJI, some classic rock based). I think you're painting Cleveland with a narrow brush when you call it a "blue collar" market. There's quite a bit of upper end in this town, educationally and income-wise. From Severance Hall and the Cleveland Orchestra to Case Western, Cleveland Hts and Lakewood "artsy" areas, and on and on. Lots of examples where a AAA would be attractive. And that's not to say that those demos are the only ones attracted to the format. Folks who love music, all genres, all ages, and those that they don't normally hear on radio, are attracted to AAA. V107-3 is certainly geared towards Cleveland with it's classic hits base and it's a work in progress for a station not even three years old. WMMS wasn't #1 in a day. Neither was WMJI. Took a number of years. I don't have a dog in this fight...just being devil's advocate. I certainly think an eclectic format like AAA has a place in the Cleveland market.

IMHO alternative rock radio as a sole format is over, in general, but esp in Cleveland. New York now without an OTA alternative rock. Rolling those titles into a mainstream rock, there you're ok. Or even rolling those "alternative" (20 years ago) titles onto a "classic rock" station like WONE, now doing the "everything that rocks" format.

 

[MarkW]

"Lake" is Mix rebranded. And "Lake" is what "Mix" should've evolved to years ago. So WNWV didn't drop the ball.

I disagree. The playlist & formatics of "Lake" are very much different than "Mix," although I will agree with you that the new format likely appeals to many listeners of the previous format. Variety Hits was available for the taking when WNWV dropped Smooth Jazz. They passed. Now, 106.5 is enjoying a 6 or 7 share whereas 107.3 is stuck around a 2 - 2.5 share.

"A work in progress" after nearly three years?!!! Good grief. How much time is needed? 5 years? 10 years?
I'm not exactly sure what New York has to do with Cleveland, either. Those two markets have little in common.

 

[VODood]

My point regarding CLE and NYC is neither has an alternative rock station. For NYC to not have an alt/mainstream rock is indicative, I think, of the state of the format on the whole. Regardless of ratings it's not an easy sell.

MIX was a variety hits. Wasn't a true HAC. I worked there late 90s not long after it's launch. Going back to when MIX first launched it was very much like what Lake is doing now. Different music. But same approach.

The more important question(s). Is Lake making money? Is V107-3? If yes, then they're successful. Whether either is making "enough" money is another issue.

The most successful CLE station since 1990 is arguably WMJI (most #1 books in the 90s). WMJI went fulltime oldies 1989. Didn't "hit" until about 93-94. Full blown powerhouse '97. Took time. Wasn't overnight. In a market oversaturated with classic hits/rock formats and no external marketing to attract cume (TV, billboards, buses,etc) V107-3 will take time to grow. And it is growing. Again, I don't have a dog in the fight. Just pointing out that AAA has a place in a "blue collar market" as you stated. Is AAA going to be a powerhouse in the market? Most likely not. But it can have a place. I believe the GM, when V (Boom) was first launching, said that he didn't expect 107-3 to be the number one preset. But to be top 5, or even top 10, that was the goal. Ultimately it's about the $$$. Not ratings. Target the right demos and you'll get the $$$. Alternative rock? No money.

 

[Rusty Muck]

If your west of Cleveland then BW college station 88.3fm is a very good alternative rock option. They lean very heavy on new stuff with older stuff sprinkled in and are more of what I'd consider a "true" alternative station than what 92.3 was. Radio923 wasn't an awful staion, but hearing Red Hot Chili Peppers every stinkin hour got old for me.

That was 92.3's main problem all along.

But that was a constant problem for 92.3's entire lifespan as a rock station - either the playlist was boring and contrived ("Xtreme"), leaned far too heavily towards pop-punk, then to hairbands (pre-and-post-Rover "K-Rock"). At least the music selection was more credible under the "radio 92.3" banner - better music selection overall and did play some indie bands and some up-and-comers - but playing RHCP and Linkin Park on a constant basis was a turn-off.

The thing about the FB posters complaining endlessly on the "radio 92.3" FB page is, they all felt that "radio 92.3" was a 'legendary' station... and 'one of the best in town.' This while WKRK had no personalities and no actual identity (outside of Verlane and Nard's worthy and valiant attempts). How sad is THAT for people's tastes in what "good radio" can be to have been so utterly lowered?

IMO, BOTH The End and NextGen Buzzard WMMS trump "radio 92.3" handily... and it isn't a contest.

 

[Rusty Muck]

I'd be curious to know -- how strong is 98.1 WKDD's signal in Greater Cleveland overall? Does that station still bill well in Akron? Would it make sense to flip that station to Modern Rock w/ an orientation toward Cleveland? Seems to me that WKDD is only a shadow of its former self.

WKDD obviously has a far better signal now (moving back to the old WKDD site, but with a newer tower) but that should have been done back in July 2001. Too much damage to the station overall in terms of ratings because of the 96.5-to-98.1 swap, and they've never really recovered from that.

WKDD will never even try to aim at Cleveland, or make it official. For one, 98.5 is WAY too close to WNCX/98.5 for it to really work. Secondly, CC already screwed Akron with WKDD's move off of 96.5... they couldn't do it again (could they?)... And thirdly - and most importantly - is the pesky ownership/revenue cap.

98.1 would be more likely to flip to an FM simulcast of WHLO.

 

[fybush]

WKDD obviously has a far better signal now (moving back to the old WKDD site, but with a newer tower) but that should have been done back in July 2001. Too much damage to the station overall in terms of ratings because of the 96.5-to-98.1 swap, and they've never really recovered from that.

You think they wouldn't have done the move in 2001 if they could have done the move in 2001?

The old signal-overlap rules prevented them from doing so, because the relocated WKDD would have counted against the ownership cap in at least part of the Cleveland market. It wasn't until the rules were changed to use Arbitron market definitions that 98.1 could move in.

 

[AllMightyVoice]

That was 92.3's main problem all along.

But that was a constant problem for 92.3's entire lifespan as a rock station - either the playlist was boring and contrived ("Xtreme"), leaned far too heavily towards pop-punk, then to hairbands (pre-and-post-Rover "K-Rock"). At least the music selection was more credible under the "radio 92.3" banner - better music selection overall and did play some indie bands and some up-and-comers - but playing RHCP and Linkin Park on a constant basis was a turn-off.

The thing about the FB posters complaining endlessly on the "radio 92.3" FB page is, they all felt that "radio 92.3" was a 'legendary' station... and 'one of the best in town.' This while WKRK had no personalities and no actual identity (outside of Verlane and Nard's worthy and valiant attempts). How sad is THAT for people's tastes in what "good radio" can be to have been so utterly lowered?

IMO, BOTH The End and NextGen Buzzard WMMS trump "radio 92.3" handily... and it isn't a contest.

Completely agree. To me the big problem with alt-rock radio is they completely lost faith in newer music period. There really are actually a lot of very good current songs in alt-rock that just aren't going to see the light of day. Stations like radio923 leaned way to heavily on heritage artists. I give them credit for playing newer bands like The Joy Formidable, Sleeper Agent, and Awol Nation towards the end...but too little too late. There really was nothing edgy about the station at all, which is one reason why they never held a candle to The End or NextGenBuzzard.

I give V1073 credit for actually playing a good amount of new music, but they clearly show no intentions of being anything close to an alt-rocker.

The future of music (specifically rock) on the radio seems very bleak to me, and honestly I don't think radio has anyone to blame but themselves. Lack of creativity and formats that skew towards older people leave young people to their MP3 players and streaming services. WMMS treats music as an afterthought. The Lake is your mom's iPod on shuffle. WNCX and 1073 are run by people who go to bed at night hoping that they wake up and its 1974 again. If you're under 30 radio is lame.

 

[Rusty Muck]

WKDD obviously has a far better signal now (moving back to the old WKDD site, but with a newer tower) but that should have been done back in July 2001. Too much damage to the station overall in terms of ratings because of the 96.5-to-98.1 swap, and they've never really recovered from that.

You think they wouldn't have done the move in 2001 if they could have done the move in 2001?

The old signal-overlap rules prevented them from doing so, because the relocated WKDD would have counted against the ownership cap in at least part of the Cleveland market. It wasn't until the rules were changed to use Arbitron market definitions that 98.1 could move in.

To be fair, the original plan was for Clear Channel to trade one of their Mount Vernon stations (WBZW/107.7 Loudonville) to Dix/WWST in exchange for WQKT/104.5 Wooster, which signal would then be moved to Canton and used as WKDD's new home. (Presumably, 98.1 would then have been spun off or used to launch some other format.) Then Dix saw how obviously lopsided that deal was in Clear Channel's favor, and, well, Dix nixed the deal. So WKDD got the big-time shaft as a result - CC had no plan B, nor could they build a new tower quick enough.

Also of note was that CC also received from Salem months after the swap WHLO/640, which simulcast WKDD until a talk format could be launched.

 

[VODood]

I agree with SixOntheFloor... rock radio, all genres, does a poor job of promoting it's own. All genres of music need to look at how country promotes. From the labels to the artists to radio. They've got it nailed. Rock and CHR are also rans in the promotional dept. compared to country.

The under 30 set doesn't go to radio for new music. Haven't in some time. They go to the 'net. Hell, I'm 43 and I go to the 'net for music that OTA stations don't play. I love oldies... but can't get what I prefer OTA these days. I listen to Lanigan... then it's Pandora or www.cruisinoldiesradio.com or WDJO/1480 Cinci love this station http://www.oldies1480.net/ .... There's a hole in CLE, on AM, for a station like WDJO. WMJI has abandoned much of the 60s. It would work. Ideally on WHKK/1420. But Salem wouldn't do it.

Props to Retro Radio with Joe Madigan on WJCU> Great show!

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

So much to comment on here, but I'll only pick up a few pieces.

To be fair, the original plan was for Clear Channel to trade one of their Mount Vernon stations (WBZW/107.7 Loudonville) to Dix/WWST in exchange for WQKT/104.5 Wooster, which signal would then be moved to Canton and used as WKDD's new home.

It's been a long time since I heard this story, so I could be remembering wrong, but I believe they were aiming for moving 104.5 to a place like Doylestown or Barberton... in effect, creating a similar situation to the first 98.1 move to the Hartville site.

The problem, and why Dix didn't bite, is indeed obvious...there's no way to cover all of Wayne County with a solid signal with 107.7/Loudonville, and it's my guess that it really couldn't be moved much east (107.9 Cleveland would probably be in the way, for one).

Look at 107.7's signal maps - it's barely a rimshot into Wooster itself, even when it tried serving Wooster as "The Breeze" (smooth jazz). It's a non-starter in Orrville, Wayne County's second largest city, and WQKT does a lot of countywide stuff (HS sports, etc.).

Again, WKDD (after this fell apart, or never happened) tried to upgrade 98.1 in Hartville. An improvement, but not good enough. 98.1's signal, even after the Hartville move, was a mile long and a couple of inches deep, very bad for a station depending on in-office listening and in-home/alarm clock radio listening...in Akron.

Thus, Clear Channel spent the bucks and built an entirely new tower at the old 96.5 site.

 

[birdmand264]

I was a fan of 92.3's last version of alternative... really liked the mix. Once it went away, I tried their HD-2 mix (yes, I have an HD radio) - but it's too heavy. I would've thought they'd move the former 92.3 format over to it, but they didn't; they left the original heavier alternative. So I was SOL.

At home, fortunately (for now), I've been able to replace it by listening to Sirius XM Lithium and Alt Nation (via Dish Network routed through my DVD player and home stereo). The quality is superb and the mix is okay, by jumping between the two.

While I'm in the car, I've been listening to the WMMS HD-2 signal, which is their "alternative project"... which is a Clear Channel "brand" pumped in from wherever. The format and mix is pretty similiar to the old 92.3, so it's working out for me... especially since there is still no commercials. Bad thing about it is that the jocks (wherever they dug them up from) are pretty annoying and dumb sounding at times. Plus - and this is a message to the Clear Channel engineers - can you please put a dead air detector onto that signal? I'm not talking about it going dead every so often for a few minutes -- I'm talking about 3 times in the last month it went out... not for a few minutes or even hours... but for several days at a time. Really? How do you ever expect to pick up any type of audience when your station is off the air because someone isn't paying attention to it? There's no excuse for it.

 

[VODood]

birdman265 wrote:
How do you ever expect to pick up any type of audience when your station is off the air because someone isn't paying attention to it? There's no excuse for it.

It's an HD channel. You and maybe 100 more people have HD radios in Cleveland. There isn't an audience.

 

[Rusty Muck]

birdman265 wrote:
How do you ever expect to pick up any type of audience when your station is off the air because someone isn't paying attention to it? There's no excuse for it.

It's an HD channel. You and maybe 100 more people have HD radios in Cleveland. There isn't an audience.

100 people? Wow, that's being generous!

Streaming services like iHeartRadio, Radio.com, TunedIn, etc., all have been shown to be infinitely more successful that HD Radio. (But again, that's like multiplying from the square root of zero.)

Now, why is that the case? Simple. All you need to access these streaming apps is a hand-held computer, smart phone, an iPod or an iPad. You don't have to buy another radio that has an exorbitant price... in comparison to a normal radio that you already have and have no need to replace.

Clear Channel has been very smart in investing into iHeartRadio and promoting it heavily. CBS ought to do the same thing in order to bolster their Radio.com service...

 

[VODood]

HD Radio, SJ, Alternative rock, all dead.