AM 1230 MAY BE DEAD, BUT PROGRESSIVE TALK IS FAR FROM IT

[nmoore6676]

They do in Cleveland on AM 1260.

In LA (actually Pasadena) on AM 1110. But I really like the idea of combining Stephanie Miller with other interesting programming, not necessarily "Progressive' but thought provoking and entertaining. People would listen to that on even a power challenged AM station. KTLK here is 50KW but very sharply directional (it used to be 5KW with a less restricted array) and Stephanie gets listeners in this market, she would probably do a lot better if not for Bill Handel on KFI.

 

[CBusDave]

Would anybody really listen to Radio Disney on an AM signal? I doubt it.

Actually all Radio Disney outlets are on AM except for one. About 20-25 stations I believe. Now of those I don't know how many are owned by Clear Channel. I thought that ABC bought the stations and put radio disney on them but I could be wrong and maybe they do syndicate.

 

[pbf1]

Yes

They own many, but they do syndicate.

 

[SportsRadioDoc]

I don't question the availability of Disney on AM, but does anybody listen? Music on AM just doesn't fly unless it's ethnic (Mexican), so is Disney any different? I'd be interested to see the numbers in a few markets.

 

[KFodor]

There's also another train of thought here that some of you who are not in radio wouldn't know.

There are stations who have changed format so many times that the frequency becomes (in a manner of speaking) "poisoned" to the audience. They've been so many different things that the audience simply gives up. I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the case with 1230, but it could be a factor. (Especially given the station's horrendous nighttime coverage these days. No argument...the night signal has degraded over the years as Columbus has expanded. Or, maybe the signal's the same and the city's grown away from it.) Nonetheless, (though I have no internal knowledge of the goingson there, and do not suggest so) it appears as though that frequency could be being used in a completely legal, above board game of "keepaway". Making big ratings isn't the goal in this scenario. Keeping programs "in the family" that allow them to "protect" WTVN is.

 

[SeanMGilbow]

There's also another train of thought here that some of you who are not in radio wouldn't know.

There are stations who have changed format so many times that the frequency becomes (in a manner of speaking) "poisoned" to the audience. They've been so many different things that the audience simply gives up. I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the case with 1230, but it could be a factor. (Especially given the station's horrendous nighttime coverage these days. No argument...the night signal has degraded over the years as Columbus has expanded. Or, maybe the signal's the same and the city's grown away from it.) Nonetheless, (though I have no internal knowledge of the goingson there, and do not suggest so) it appears as though that frequency could be being used in a completely legal, above board game of "keepaway". Making big ratings isn't the goal in this scenario. Keeping programs "in the family" that allow them to "protect" WTVN is.

Actually, you're not the first person to bring this up. Tim Feran of the Dispatch mentioned this in the first story on the ratings drop.

 

[kirkiefan]

I'm not a fan of either far left or far right talk radio..we're a country of extremes...no middle ground. Rash Limburgher and Al Frankenfurter may as well be drop-kicking and duke-ing it out in the WWE ring as the proverbial Sheik vs. Bobo Brazil of the pre-apocalypse!

My point is that 1230 has struggled since the end of WCOL-AMs Top 40 era...which has sunk to new lows after the Clear Clunkheads downsized it even more and likening it to a brand name box of Big G Cereals. Its disregard for being responsive to the average listener and the public interest is shoddy and abhorrent to put it mildly.

In short they may as well say:

Silly Rabbit! Clear Channel is for the rich,powerful few and fortunate!


"Are we the the consumers...or are WE being consumed???"
(quote from Matthew Kelly)

 

[KFodor]

I'm not a fan of either far left or far right talk radio..we're a country of extremes...no middle ground. Rash Limburgher and Al Frankenfurter may as well be drop-kicking and duke-ing it out in the WWE ring as the proverbial Sheik vs. Bobo Brazil of the pre-apocalypse!

My point is that 1230 has struggled since the end of WCOL-AMs Top 40 era...which has sunk to new lows after the Clear Clunkheads downsized it even more and likening it to a brand name box of Big G Cereals. Its disregard for being responsive to the average listener and the public interest is shoddy and abhorrent to put it mildly.

In short they may as well say:

Silly Rabbit! Clear Channel is for the rich,powerful few and fortunate!


"Are we the the consumers...or are WE being consumed???"
(quote from Matthew Kelly)

Kirkie Fan:

Blame Clear Channel all you like...but they're not the problem. AM is the problem.

That station's had one foot in the grave (below 2 share territory) since about 1999. And being above a 2 share 12 plus is the minimum ratings necessary in the Columbus market to even have a chance of being remotely profitable at any rate structure. Real Oldies didn't do it. Lib talk didn't do it...and the current programming is doing worse.

Frankly, there is no programming I can think of that would attract sufficient audience to be viable (meaning: worth spending tons of promotional money on). And, Radio Disney (which has been suggested on these boards) doesn't get high enough numbers anywhere I've seen to suggest that, with the signal 1230 has, it could make money either.

The daytime signal is bearable. The night signal is the pits...once you get about north of Grandview. (OK, that's an exaggeration, but the point is valid.)

But, 1230's not alone. There are a whole bunch of these stations across America in city after city which were originally designed to be "local" radio services. But, the towns and cities most of these are in have grown exponentially. With the added interference on the AM band, plus the myriad of "drop in" stations in the past 20 years, and the interference at night from renegade operators the FCC won't crack down upon...it's making a situation that was bad...worse. These stations generally do not cover near the ground (percentage-wise) they once did...and, considering that only about 25 to 40% (take your pick) of the listeners even bother with turning AM on, one could argue whether or not it might not better to just turn some of these stations off.

The obvious argument here would be: So, why not operate it as a "local" radio service as it was intended, with "live and local" announcers 24-7, just like the old days? Answer: The old days are gone. Financially, you'd likely lose your shirt. Unless, that is, you could come up with a unique niche format that enough local, direct businesses would pre-commit to advertising on. But, you'd also have to consider the signal limitations. If you don't talk to the entire market, you'd have to talk to the area you can transmit to...and would your "niche" format appeal to the audience nearest the tower?

And personnel-wise: the "dirty little secret" is that in the "good old days", the all-night jock on some of these stations was probably making around $125 dollars a week, or less, and you can't pay those kinds of salaries today.
(OK: insert your favorite "Cheap Radio Company" joke here.) Even when I was in Columbus in the early 90's, seeing an overnight jock making around $16,000 to $18,000...yet the station, in that daypart, billed far less than that per year. Can you blame stations for automating a daypart that continually lost money?

So, to make a station like 1230 truly work, AM's problems have got to be fixed. And, despite my attempts to be optimistic, I have doubts that's ever gonna happen. Hence, the potential "strategy" that I outlined in a previous post. If you can't make money with it as a standalone, at least do something that helps the cluster as a whole. That, at the very least, makes it worth paying the electric bill.

 

[jakej]

Jason, I have a question. You indicate that a station has to have over a 2 share 12 plus to have a chance of turning a profit, but I've also read from others that 12 plus is irrelevant, and it all comes down to how well a station does with its target demo -- that's the true measuring stick of its profit capability. Who's right? I assume you'll say it's you(!), but why are they wrong? Are you basically saying that if the 12+ is at or below 2, then there's no way that the station's target market number can be respectable?

 

[boyphenom]

And personnel-wise: the "dirty little secret" is that in the "good old days", the all-night jock on some of these stations was probably making around $125 dollars a week, or less, and you can't pay those kinds of salaries today.
(OK: insert your favorite "Cheap Radio Company" joke here.) Even when I was in Columbus in the early 90's, seeing an overnight jock making around $16,000 to $18,000...yet the station, in that daypart, billed far less than that per year. Can you blame stations for automating a daypart that continually lost money?

Yes I do blame them. I'm sure there are times of day when Lazarus loses money keeping their stores open, but if they were only open during profitable hours, who would bother to shop there? If they were open, say, from 12-2 and 4-7, those would probably be the peak hours, but don't you think by limiting when people can access your product you risk a snowball effect due to business loss from people getting out of the habit because you limited access to your product. Look at Schottenstein's here. Don't you think the odd hours they have has affected their buisiness? Do you think Kroger makes a profit overnight? People tune in and expect to receive a certain product ... if they don't get it, they go somewhere else. They want the product when they want it and how they want it, not when and how you want to give it to them.

Like I said in another post, GM focussed on cost over product and look where it's gotten them.

 

[JohnboyCrenshaw]

El Vaquero is closed every day from 2p-5p, and they do not seem to have any trouble. I love the "Build Your Own" combo with a burrito, enchilada and a taco. Both before 2p and after 5p, for the record.

JbC

 

[KFodor]

Jason, I have a question. You indicate that a station has to have over a 2 share 12 plus to have a chance of turning a profit, but I've also read from others that 12 plus is irrelevant, and it all comes down to how well a station does with its target demo -- that's the true measuring stick of its profit capability. Who's right? I assume you'll say it's you(!), but why are they wrong? Are you basically saying that if the 12+ is at or below 2, then there's no way that the station's target market number can be respectable?

Sorry...I've been away for a couple of days.

I've said it, too before...that 12 plus is irrelevant...and it is, to advertisers. But that 2 share 12 plus figure I mentioned...think of it as a kind of "benchmark" that some radio types use to suggest "relevance" in a marketplace. Not because of the 12 plus numbers, though. You see, let's say a station as a 12 plus share of 2.7. That figure, broken down could be as high as a 5 or 6 share in the target demo. If you're that high in a target demo, that station is probably top 10 in the demo...maybe even #5...and that is saleable to advertisers. Generally, a 2.5 12 plus can equate to a 5 or so in demo. But, once you drop below a 2 in 12-plus, the station's "in demo" numbers drop to a 3 or a 4...which makes it much harder to build a case to advertisers.

We went through that at Star 107.9. When the station was stable in the 2 share to 3 share range 12 plus, we did pretty well with sales. During those times we dropped beneath a 2...sales dropped precipitously.

 

[KFodor]

And personnel-wise: the "dirty little secret" is that in the "good old days", the all-night jock on some of these stations was probably making around $125 dollars a week, or less, and you can't pay those kinds of salaries today.
(OK: insert your favorite "Cheap Radio Company" joke here.) Even when I was in Columbus in the early 90's, seeing an overnight jock making around $16,000 to $18,000...yet the station, in that daypart, billed far less than that per year. Can you blame stations for automating a daypart that continually lost money?

Yes I do blame them. I'm sure there are times of day when Lazarus loses money keeping their stores open, but if they were only open during profitable hours, who would bother to shop there? If they were open, say, from 12-2 and 4-7, those would probably be the peak hours, but don't you think by limiting when people can access your product you risk a snowball effect due to business loss from people getting out of the habit because you limited access to your product. Look at Schottenstein's here. Don't you think the odd hours they have has affected their buisiness? Do you think Kroger makes a profit overnight? People tune in and expect to receive a certain product ... if they don't get it, they go somewhere else. They want the product when they want it and how they want it, not when and how you want to give it to them.

Like I said in another post, GM focussed on cost over product and look where it's gotten them.

The problem with your thinking here...is that the stations in Columbus are getting the same ratings Midnight to 5 am with voicetracked jocks that they were getting with live talent. So, that daypart today...can (at least potentially) make money, because the costs are lower. Also...how many people work at Kroger at 3 am and how many work there at 3 pm? I'll bet the staff size is much larger in the afternoon. The reason for the smaller night staff? Cost vs. return. Same with radio.

Unfortunately for Kroger, they haven't figured out a way to completely automate yet...you still need people to stock the shelves overnight to get ready for the big rush later in the day. But, generally, you only have one person working the cash register. And trust me, they'll automate that, too...as soon as they can make it work for them.

I can appreciate your "emotional" draw to radio. Having worked overnights on a station or two, I miss taking calls from lonely people and being their emotional lifeline. I also don't miss the drunks I'd have to tolerate on a nightly basis.

But, I don't...and won't apologize for radio being a business.

JBC: It's been a longtime since we had lunch at El Vaquero. We'll have to do that some time. I could use a good chicken enchalada!

 

[boyphenom]

I can appreciate your "emotional" draw to radio. Having worked overnights on a station or two, I miss taking calls from lonely people and being their emotional lifeline. I also don't miss the drunks I'd have to tolerate on a nightly basis.

But, I don't...and won't apologize for radio being a business.

I don't think you understand, I am ALL ABOUT THE BUSINESS. I'm sure someone at GM was saying 25 years ago, "Hey just think of all the parts, labor and tooling costs we can save by using the same parts for each car. People won't notice, since we already use the same engines and suspensions anyway." Listeners were drawn to radio to be amused and entertained by the spontanaiety and creativity which formerly drew people to radio. Cut here because we can cut costs, cut the news department, cut the live jocks and you give people less and less a reason to listen.

Yes, the radio enthusiasts are small in number, but if you guys were smart you would treat them much like the car enthusiasts. If you tailor your product so it is appealing to the enthusiast, it usually will be very popular with the masses. I'm not talking about some pie-in-the-sky music format, I'm talking about what made stations in the 60's, 70's and 80's sound so special.

Here's an interview with Jon Wolfert, President of Jam Creative Productions talks about how his interest in radio and jingles and lament much of the spontanaety that is lacking today.

http://www.musicradio77.com/images/rewound5-29-00-3.ram

Can you in a million years fathom anybody doing a WNCI tribute site or tribute show 50 years from now?

 

[KFodor]

I can appreciate your "emotional" draw to radio. Having worked overnights on a station or two, I miss taking calls from lonely people and being their emotional lifeline. I also don't miss the drunks I'd have to tolerate on a nightly basis.

But, I don't...and won't apologize for radio being a business.

I don't think you understand, I am ALL ABOUT THE BUSINESS. I'm sure someone at GM was saying 25 years ago, "Hey just think of all the parts, labor and tooling costs we can save by using the same parts for each car. People won't notice, since we already use the same engines and suspensions anyway." Listeners were drawn to radio to be amused and entertained by the spontanaiety and creativity which formerly drew people to radio. Cut here because we can cut costs, cut the news department, cut the live jocks and you give people less and less a reason to listen.

Yes, the radio enthusiasts are small in number, but if you guys were smart you would treat them much like the car enthusiasts. If you tailor your product so it is appealing to the enthusiast, it usually will be very popular with the masses. I'm not talking about some pie-in-the-sky music format, I'm talking about what made stations in the 60's, 70's and 80's sound so special.

Here's an interview with Jon Wolfert, President of Jam Creative Productions talks about how his interest in radio and jingles and lament much of the spontanaety that is lacking today.

http://www.musicradio77.com/images/rewound5-29-00-3.ram

Can you in a million years fathom anybody doing a WNCI tribute site or tribute show 50 years from now?

OK, you're passionate about your beliefs...nothing wrong with that. But here's some facts:

News Departments were cut because they were tuneouts to music radio. It was a well-researched fact. The minute the news came on...you could hear buttons being pushed all over town. The possible exception to that would have been
CKLW and it's unique 20/20 writing style...though, they went a bit over the top of what differentiates between creative story telling and blood and guts sensationalism. But, news went away, because radio...listening to the listeners...gave them what they wanted. News in the morning...and little the rest of the day. (Though I do think radio has a responsibility, even today, to provide emergency news and weather coverage at any time. That some stations fail at this is legitimate criticism.)

Cut the live jocks. I hate to clue you in on this, too. But more often these days, the research points more and more to less talk. DJ's, unless they have something to say the listener considers important, are a distraction. This is what the listeners are telling the stations. (We ask about that, too.) And, frankly, most listeners (with the exception of radio geeks) can't tell and don't care whether the DJ is live or not...if (and that's the important word here), the station executes voice tracking the way it's supposed to be done. (And, in fairness, not all do.)

Lastly, the problem with programming to the "enthusiasts" is: they're usually the minority. Don't forget, I've done a lot of oldies radio over the years. I've DJ'd many car shows. And, had my ear bent countless dozens of times by "oldies enthusiasts" who'd tell me my station would be perfect IF...we'd play 10,000 obscure "B" sides. As I recall, someone in Columbus tried that once. You wouldn't want me to quote the ratings it got, would you?

Though I guess we agree to disagree, I will grant you that I think stations could be more creative. But to me, anyway, that creativity comes with "theater of the mind" imaging and DJ's (even if they're voicetracked), who can employ the same "theater of the mind" techniques to make those 10 second breaks engaging and more entertaining. Read that to mean: not just saying "that was/this is/I'm (jock)/coming up, we've got..." And, before you think it can't be done, I remember some powerhouse AM top 40 stations, who had their microphones wired to shut down if you didn't get your break done within a certain specified time (say, 15 seconds.)

Lastly, if WNCI lasts 50 years...yep, it would be worth a tribute site....cause surviving that long in one format would make them more legendary than they are now.