lino said:
Thank you, at last, for at least this brief bit of candor.
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AM BROADCASTERS - CALL TO ACTION
- Thread starter Savage
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LinoNYC said:
Just off the top of my head, that leaves 570, 710, 770, 830, 880, 970, 1130, 1190, 1330, 1380 and 1480 (and a few others I probably missed) in the NYC market as NOT having installed it. As I said, most didn't.
LinoNYC said:
It didn't matter to me one way or the other. The receivers were two channels of mud instead of one, with the notable exception of two radios made by Sony. However, C-QUAM didn't cause adjacent-channel interference, either. For most of the time when AM stereo was attempting to gain ground, I was engineering only FM stations, so it was not on my radar at the time.
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
dumber than a box of hair said:
C-Quam is STILL the official standard of the US for AM stereo broadcasting. If the FCC MANDATES it - it will happen just like when they mandated text for the deaf on TV. Now, even those that can hear love it because they can watch TV while talking on the phone, by the way. Consumers would grow to love AM stereo if it were mandated, and CHEAP, like text for the deaf on TV. There's nothing cheap about IBOC, and the only way I see any sort of future for it is if the FCC mandates it. Otherwise, consumers have spoken, once again, it will have no more future than C-Quam, and you can stick a fork in those HD radio encoders in 20 years, because they will be in the corner with spider webs on them.
Dear Lino & box,
I must adamantly disagree with your assertment that AM Stereo was "Two channels of mud instead of one" or "marginally better". Whenthe c-quam was more available, say early-mid '90's, It was wonderful on a decent tuner. Not that Radio Hack $29.95 mini box.
I had an '89 Cadillac with a "Concert Master" radio, not the cheapie, not the Bose DeLuxe...middle quality. I was suprised to find it was made by Blaupunk in West Germany. When a Stereo AM signal wa detected, the radio automatically opened up the bandwidth, and the audio was very, very good. It also had an extremely effective noise blanker. So even in fringe, even when listening to say KYW 1060 Newsradio, the station sounded so superior to anything else. WCAU/WOGL 1210 was playing oldies then, and it was truly near hi-fi, dying at 10Kc. It was like someone lifted a blanket off the speakers and let the sound through.
The wife's JEEP has an AM Stereo Chrysler unit. When 1210 would play Sinatra on Sundays, it would just "swing". Possibly, maybe, the stations I listened to on those units had better engineering, or the units you used were defective. Both would have been better without NRSC 10Kc death.
However, even both had/have AM noise blanking, they can never filter out that IBOC adjacent buzzzzsaw.
I must adamantly disagree with your assertment that AM Stereo was "Two channels of mud instead of one" or "marginally better". Whenthe c-quam was more available, say early-mid '90's, It was wonderful on a decent tuner. Not that Radio Hack $29.95 mini box.
I had an '89 Cadillac with a "Concert Master" radio, not the cheapie, not the Bose DeLuxe...middle quality. I was suprised to find it was made by Blaupunk in West Germany. When a Stereo AM signal wa detected, the radio automatically opened up the bandwidth, and the audio was very, very good. It also had an extremely effective noise blanker. So even in fringe, even when listening to say KYW 1060 Newsradio, the station sounded so superior to anything else. WCAU/WOGL 1210 was playing oldies then, and it was truly near hi-fi, dying at 10Kc. It was like someone lifted a blanket off the speakers and let the sound through.
The wife's JEEP has an AM Stereo Chrysler unit. When 1210 would play Sinatra on Sundays, it would just "swing". Possibly, maybe, the stations I listened to on those units had better engineering, or the units you used were defective. Both would have been better without NRSC 10Kc death.
However, even both had/have AM noise blanking, they can never filter out that IBOC adjacent buzzzzsaw.
LinoNYC said:
It sure was not on when we owned it in the late 90's.
DISCLAIMER: This post is a little memory-lane walk that has NOTHING to do with IBOC, for a moment. We'll return to the HD bickering...after this...
LinoNYC mentions the 50 rpm songs at WWDJ. Ahh, how well I remember - I was there. The way 97DJ did that was a little unusual. A signal generator set to 60 Hz was connected to the input of a 1950s era tube-type Altec PA amp. The creaky production room QRK turntable was then connected to the 70V output terminals and the speed was adjusted using the signal generator. Because the voltage was low the 115v TT motor didn't have much torque so you had to crank it back a couple of revolutions to let it get up to speed.
The dual Gates 5kw transmitters over in the trailer behind Two Guys in Hackensack had problems. The CE refused to adjust the mod overcurrent relays properly, so occasionally while you were talking the Tx would kick off the air. Then they'd accuse the jock, usually me, of "letting the VU swing into the red," God forbid. PD Sean Casey/Ray Gilmore asked me about it, we had a big meeting about it, they adjusted the current threshhold and the problem was fixed.
The Kahn-Hazeltine DSB stereo system sounded pretty good (using two reasonably matched radios.)
And, now back to IBOC, which is already "in progress"....if you can use that term....
LinoNYC mentions the 50 rpm songs at WWDJ. Ahh, how well I remember - I was there. The way 97DJ did that was a little unusual. A signal generator set to 60 Hz was connected to the input of a 1950s era tube-type Altec PA amp. The creaky production room QRK turntable was then connected to the 70V output terminals and the speed was adjusted using the signal generator. Because the voltage was low the 115v TT motor didn't have much torque so you had to crank it back a couple of revolutions to let it get up to speed.
The dual Gates 5kw transmitters over in the trailer behind Two Guys in Hackensack had problems. The CE refused to adjust the mod overcurrent relays properly, so occasionally while you were talking the Tx would kick off the air. Then they'd accuse the jock, usually me, of "letting the VU swing into the red," God forbid. PD Sean Casey/Ray Gilmore asked me about it, we had a big meeting about it, they adjusted the current threshhold and the problem was fixed.
The Kahn-Hazeltine DSB stereo system sounded pretty good (using two reasonably matched radios.)
And, now back to IBOC, which is already "in progress"....if you can use that term....
ASSORTED MEA CULPAS AND DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS:
In the last post I referenced "signal generator." I should have said "AUDIO generator."
And in my earlier reference to C-QUAM that claimed "most stations have it installed," I should probably have said, "many stations have it installed." The majority of AM sites I've seen in the past ten years have transmitters, at least the main, that have built-in C-QUAM capability. Two of our three WYSL Tx's for example are stereo-capable but are operated in mono mode, the BE AM 2.5 and NAUTEL 30kw. On the other hand, I know that you can stroll through many an AM site these days and see frankly unbelievable things, so a lack-of-C QUAM would hardly be surprising.
And rbruce is correct: the FCC CAN mandate receiver standards. They can prohibit the sale of AM receivers incapable of receiving C-QUAM, just like they imposed the all-channel TV tuner requirement
In the last post I referenced "signal generator." I should have said "AUDIO generator."
And in my earlier reference to C-QUAM that claimed "most stations have it installed," I should probably have said, "many stations have it installed." The majority of AM sites I've seen in the past ten years have transmitters, at least the main, that have built-in C-QUAM capability. Two of our three WYSL Tx's for example are stereo-capable but are operated in mono mode, the BE AM 2.5 and NAUTEL 30kw. On the other hand, I know that you can stroll through many an AM site these days and see frankly unbelievable things, so a lack-of-C QUAM would hardly be surprising.
And rbruce is correct: the FCC CAN mandate receiver standards. They can prohibit the sale of AM receivers incapable of receiving C-QUAM, just like they imposed the all-channel TV tuner requirement
rbrucecarter5 said:
The prediction that consumers would grow to love AM stereo belongs right alongside the prediction that consumers will love AM-HD. Neither one is provable, and the former has already been proven wrong by the marketplace. Enough stations tried AM stereo in many markets to at least test the waters, and the result was resounding apathy.
In point of fact, there's nothing cheap about either one, especially on a directional AM with a Smith chart which resembles a distorted spring. If the common-point impedance and VSWR aren't fairly flat across the entire passband, neither system will perform properly...and adjustments to AM transmission systems don't come cheaply, as there aren't that many engineers around who know how to do them properly. We've already discovered this on a few AM directionals which have attempted to implement HD. One that I read about had a 1.7:1 VSWR on its lower sideband, and 6:1 on the upper. No AM-HD receivers would work at all unless they were less than a mile from the site. The analog signal, of course, didn't care. This system is not just about transmitting HD along with the analog signal. It makes demands on the transmission system that most stations were not designed for.
dumber than a box of hair said:
And just like AM-HD, there aren't enough receivers in the marketplace for consumers to pass their own judgements. That's where the HD/Stereo comparion ends in my mind.
There were practically no AM stereo receivers for sale in the 80's because of the FCC's stupid decision to let the marketplace decid which stereo format would succeed. As much of a "free market" fan I am, I'll be the first to admit that's what killed AM stereo in its infancy. They should have picked a standard, then let the marketplace decide on uptake. It may have still failed, but at least the format woulda been given a fighting chance.
Zach said:
IIRC the AM stereo marketplace decision was done because of 1) the uproar over their initial pick of the Magnavox system, which was rescinded pretty quickly, and 2) the open threat of endless litigation by Leonard Kahn. Apparently the FCC had no stomach to put itself through that.
Might another "buzzer" bite the graveyard-frequency "bog"?
From the Philly Board... “SKIN RADIO FLIPS”:
Well even the 65-year-olds with "ain't-that-great" hearing who crave the Rat Pack can smell that 5 kHz rodent called "HD" Radio... Maybe the former Skin Radio will shed its IBOC dermatitis and allow a few harmonics into the modulation – but wait...
Could D.S. be one of the half-dozen Skin Radio fans from Upper Darby high school, who managed to shop-lift a BA HD Receptor from Best Buy to enjoy that compelling equivalent of dial-up RealAudio 3.0 in stereo at a couple-hundred paces from the WHAT tower in Fairmount Park? ...And how did he manage to find the AM/FM band switch? ...OH! ...He learned in Shop class—with safety goggles and the buzz-saw running
Hey Marconi... Do Frank a favor and do it “My Way” with a full 10-K!
From the Philly Board... “SKIN RADIO FLIPS”:
PhillyWatch said:
WTUX said:
Well even the 65-year-olds with "ain't-that-great" hearing who crave the Rat Pack can smell that 5 kHz rodent called "HD" Radio... Maybe the former Skin Radio will shed its IBOC dermatitis and allow a few harmonics into the modulation – but wait...
DStroyer said:
Could D.S. be one of the half-dozen Skin Radio fans from Upper Darby high school, who managed to shop-lift a BA HD Receptor from Best Buy to enjoy that compelling equivalent of dial-up RealAudio 3.0 in stereo at a couple-hundred paces from the WHAT tower in Fairmount Park? ...And how did he manage to find the AM/FM band switch? ...OH! ...He learned in Shop class—with safety goggles and the buzz-saw running
Hey Marconi... Do Frank a favor and do it “My Way” with a full 10-K!
UPDATE... NO HD Radio permitted in the Martini Lounge!
At about 10:40 PM EDT tonight, WHAT station owner [and prominent music marketing consultant], Tom Kelly, appeared live on “The Radio Racket” [www.radioracket.com] to announce the end of “HD” Radio on Philly’s 1340 AM after several months as alternative-formatted “Skin Radio” and a change earlier today to contemporary adult AAA/standards “Martini Lounge Radio”.
Kelly admitted that continued HD operation would be “incompatible” with his station’s new target – citing a significant reduction in analog quality and coverage: “We’re shutting it off because it has destroyed the signal for 99.999-percent of the public able to listen on current radios... The youthful rock audience at the half-dozen colleges close to the transmitter did not respond by purchasing an HD radio... Instead, they listened overwhelmingly on the internet... The Skin Radio service will continue for them on an online platform... The new 39-59 target is even less-likely to buy into HD and we must make our best impression on them with the signal available... There are many analog AM radios that are a drastic improvement over the junk we had to listen to back in the 70s and 80s...” The four-hour program is available in looped replay all weekend at the Radio Racket website.
WHAT may be on a graveyard frequency, but they didn’t need AM “HD” Radio to help bury them!
At about 10:40 PM EDT tonight, WHAT station owner [and prominent music marketing consultant], Tom Kelly, appeared live on “The Radio Racket” [www.radioracket.com] to announce the end of “HD” Radio on Philly’s 1340 AM after several months as alternative-formatted “Skin Radio” and a change earlier today to contemporary adult AAA/standards “Martini Lounge Radio”.
Kelly admitted that continued HD operation would be “incompatible” with his station’s new target – citing a significant reduction in analog quality and coverage: “We’re shutting it off because it has destroyed the signal for 99.999-percent of the public able to listen on current radios... The youthful rock audience at the half-dozen colleges close to the transmitter did not respond by purchasing an HD radio... Instead, they listened overwhelmingly on the internet... The Skin Radio service will continue for them on an online platform... The new 39-59 target is even less-likely to buy into HD and we must make our best impression on them with the signal available... There are many analog AM radios that are a drastic improvement over the junk we had to listen to back in the 70s and 80s...” The four-hour program is available in looped replay all weekend at the Radio Racket website.
WHAT may be on a graveyard frequency, but they didn’t need AM “HD” Radio to help bury them!
Re: UPDATE... NO HD Radio permitted in the Martini Lounge!
Of course, this was widely and accurately predicted, over and over and over again. Nobody wanted digital cassettes. Nobody would want digital pay phones, let alone pay phones anymore. And nobody wants digital radios. Radio will survive and prosper, but on platforms that have much greater appeal to consumers.
Broadcasters who see themselves as being in the FCC license and transmitter business will go the way of the railroads. Wasting resources on HD radio diverts them from the real problem at hand.
hipporadio said:
Of course, this was widely and accurately predicted, over and over and over again. Nobody wanted digital cassettes. Nobody would want digital pay phones, let alone pay phones anymore. And nobody wants digital radios. Radio will survive and prosper, but on platforms that have much greater appeal to consumers.
Broadcasters who see themselves as being in the FCC license and transmitter business will go the way of the railroads. Wasting resources on HD radio diverts them from the real problem at hand.
But people have bought wholeheartedly into other digital platforms - CDs, DVDs, mp3 players. Minidiscs are still big in Japan and HDTV is taking off here slowly but surely. And of course DAT is still a popular recording format for the sub-professional folks, so I'm told.
It seems digital's only real failure "so far" has been in radio (and that may include satellite radio at this point).
It seems digital's only real failure "so far" has been in radio (and that may include satellite radio at this point).
WHAT Suspending "HD" Radio Operation
Thanks to Hipporadio for mentioning Tom Kelly's appearance on the Radio Racket tonight. Tom's a good friend of the show, and I didn't really try to obfuscate my glee of learning the market has it's first AM to turn OFF its IBOC hash.
The show will spin around in loop, as Hippo said, all weekend. Feel free to check it out on Audio 18. Thanks again for the mention, and have a great weekend.
Thanks to Hipporadio for mentioning Tom Kelly's appearance on the Radio Racket tonight. Tom's a good friend of the show, and I didn't really try to obfuscate my glee of learning the market has it's first AM to turn OFF its IBOC hash.
The show will spin around in loop, as Hippo said, all weekend. Feel free to check it out on Audio 18. Thanks again for the mention, and have a great weekend.
"Nobody would want digital pay phones, let alone pay phones anymore."
Actually, payphones are there just in case something goes wrong with your cell. (it can happen)
Always good to have something to talk on...you still have a good example though.
In those situations where the cell isn't functioning (for whatever reason), no one is going to care if it's a digital payphone...or even a rotary for that matter, just as long as there is the ability to call someone and tell them your cell is temporarily out of order.
Actually, payphones are there just in case something goes wrong with your cell. (it can happen)
Always good to have something to talk on...you still have a good example though.
In those situations where the cell isn't functioning (for whatever reason), no one is going to care if it's a digital payphone...or even a rotary for that matter, just as long as there is the ability to call someone and tell them your cell is temporarily out of order.
Re: WHAT Suspending "HD" Radio Operation
I don't think WHAT is the first AM to abandon IBOC (and hopefully they won't be the last.)
I have heard that WSB in Atlanta discontinued theirs after listener complaints. WJLD in Birmingham was an early adopter (tester?) and killed it off a long time ago. Sadly, they've brought it back this year. Before their flirting with HD, they had a nice clear sound and did stereo to boot. Sounded great.
PS: I listened to the repeat of the show just now to hear Tom. Nice interview. Even though I'm not in Philly I'll definitely check the show out again soon.
George Brusstar said:
I don't think WHAT is the first AM to abandon IBOC (and hopefully they won't be the last.)
I have heard that WSB in Atlanta discontinued theirs after listener complaints. WJLD in Birmingham was an early adopter (tester?) and killed it off a long time ago. Sadly, they've brought it back this year. Before their flirting with HD, they had a nice clear sound and did stereo to boot. Sounded great.
PS: I listened to the repeat of the show just now to hear Tom. Nice interview. Even though I'm not in Philly I'll definitely check the show out again soon.
Yeziknoradio said:
Also, pay telephones are necessary because not everyone has a cellular telephone (or wants one). I may return mine soon, as I've only used it as a glorified cordless telephone around my apartment. It works fine, but I just never got into the habit of yakking with someone via a little box wherever I go.
-- Black Shire
vsa said:
There is wise foresight in vsa’s words regarding the internet platform!
Granted, WHAT is but a demure “graveyard AM” in a Top-10 market – conducting itself [delightfully] much as one would while building a science-fair project, but its previous format was “gutsy” and ended up on the internet platform that constituted its dependable transportation from day-one. Most will postulate that its choice of AM was misguided... Probably true, but hanging its hopes on AM “HD” was nearly an equal case of wishful thinking! Note the starry-eyed optimism of youthful WHAT PD Alvin Clay in an earlier print feature:
The mere reporting of this event testifies to the relevancy [and potential] of the internet. It was the dead-of-night in Philly and the Rat Pack was invading the Manayunk studios of WHAT in much the fashion that most formats flip. Across town, NewsRadio KYW was airing local news reports recorded hours earlier – corporate budget cuts ‘ya know
Within minutes, news of the Martini Lounge surfaced on Radio-Info. Much the same can be said about the “flash” regarding the buzz-saw’s empty gas tank at 1340AM... It was posted here within a half-hour. More significant, was the surprising flip of heritage FM-rocker WAVE96 here in Charleston... The change to a local take on “Jack” [conveniently-dubbed “Chuck”] took the market by surprise on the Friday lead-in to the summer-capping Labor Day weekend on the South Carolina coast – and was a “firm” report on this board a full-day before. Yes, much can be said about the net as a fast-evolving delivery vehicle!George Brusstar said:
If you’re having a slow Friday night, the “Racket” is well-worth your time [and further testimony to vsa’s observation]... It's literally the live aural version of this board, and features many of its lovable characters [Paul Walker included
]. Toss-in the typical production values, and you have a genuine “show” – every bit as informative – and even more entertaining than radio in print. “The Radio Racket” is the foresight-laden creation of Mr. Brusstar – a former Philly terrestrial radio devotee-turned-internet entrepreneur... It’s a great listen – and it’s “Sonic-Set-owned” to boot My station, W N M B, in North Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, has been taking action about this issue for some time. We broadcast in AM Stereo with a very clean and bright audio chain. We promote it heavily and we have AM Stereo receivers available for those who do not have them. We invite other AM stations to join us. It is so nice to hear listeners tell us how much they enjoy the music and the fidelity. It works!
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