AM-HD - digital versus analog tuners

[PocketRadio]

Daytime test of WTOP 1500 50kw AM-HD and WTRI 1520 LPAM non-HD:

Digital tuner:

1) WTOP 1490 bearly listenable, with sounds of rushing water.
2) WTOP 1500 perfectly clear.
3) WTOP 1510 bearly listenable, with sounds of rushing water.
4) WTOP 1520 listenable, with sounds of a shower.
5) WTOP 1530 clear with slight hiss.

Analog tuner:

1) 1490 (approx.) sounds of rushing water.
2) WTOP 1500 perfectly clear.
3) 1510 (approx.) sounds of rushing water.
4) WTRI 1520 listenable, with hiss.

Beats me !

 

[R.F. Burns]

Daytime test of WTOP 1500 50kw AM-HD and WTRI 1520 LPAM non-HD:

Digital tuner:

1) WTOP 1490 bearly listenable, with sounds of rushing water.
2) WTOP 1500 perfectly clear.
3) WTOP 1510 bearly listenable, with sounds of rushing water.
4) WTOP 1520 listenable, with sounds of a shower.
5) WTOP 1530 clear with slight hiss.

Analog tuner:

1) 1490 (approx.) sounds of rushing water.
2) WTOP 1500 perfectly clear.
3) 1510 (approx.) sounds of rushing water.
4) WTRI 1520 listenable, with hiss.

Beats me !

Which digital tuner did you use? On both my Receptor and the Sangean there is no indication of HD running when tuned to second adjacents.

 

[PocketRadio]

My digital-tuned radio is a cheap analog portable. Interesting, I tried my digital-tuned analog car radio today, and I got the same results as my analog-tuned portable radio (see below). I guess, that means my cheap digital-tuned analog portable radio has a wide-filter ?

 

[R.F. Burns]

My digital-tuned radio is a cheap analog portable. Interesting, I tried my digital-tuned analog car radio today, and I got the same results as my analog-tuned portable radio (see below). I guess, that means my cheap digital-tuned analog portable radio has a wide-filter ?

If your cheap radios do a poor job of filtering then the problem is with the radio. Buy a decent radio. I usd to be able to receive short wave on a old clock radio. No the shortwave stations weren't broadcasting on the medium waves. The radio was a piece of garbage. Should the shortwave station have ben shut down because my radio stunk? C'mon, get a life.

 

[PocketRadio]

My digital-tuned radio is a cheap analog portable. Interesting, I tried my digital-tuned analog car radio today, and I got the same results as my analog-tuned portable radio (see below). I guess, that means my cheap digital-tuned analog portable radio has a wide-filter ?

If your cheap radios do a poor job of filtering then the problem is with the radio. Buy a decent radio. I usd to be able to receive short wave on a old clock radio. No the shortwave stations weren't broadcasting on the medium waves. The radio was a piece of garbage. Should the shortwave station have ben shut down because my radio stunk? C'mon, get a life.

I was only posting some observations, that I thought might be helpful to others. I am not going to spend a fortune on AM/FM radios, until I find out what kind of interference nighttime HD/IBOC might cause. My cheap analog-tuned pocket-radio seems to be on-par, with my much more expensive digitally-tuned car radio. Now, was that worth, "get-a-life" - you are not going to suck me into all this in-fighting.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

Which digital tuner did you use? On both my Receptor and the Sangean there is no indication of HD running when tuned to second adjacents.

My Sangean is exactly the same, 20kHz away from an HD station, even if it's a 50kW flamethrower only a dozen miles away. First adjacent are obviously a disaster, though. I only have two receivers where second adjacents get dinged. One of them is a Sharper Image CD/Radio which is *really* wideband. HD is a mess on that radio, not only for second adj's, but also the stations running HD themselves. WBBM, WGN, WLS and WVON sound awful on that reciever. It sounds like a kitchen water faucet.

 

[calstymes]

PocketRadio flatly stated:

Now, was that worth, "get-a-life" - you are not going to suck me into all this in-fighting.

And this is good for you! These pro-HD folks get very testy at anti-HD sentiment when presented with engineering observations that can't be duplicated in areas which have natural AM IBOC-hiss elimination filters shielding their residents.

If you're interested in purchasing any of these, I am about to start a company that will market such filters. They should be a very popular item in the coming years.

 

[R.F. Burns]

PocketRadio flatly stated:

Now, was that worth, "get-a-life" - you are not going to suck me into all this in-fighting.

And this is good for you! These pro-HD folks get very testy at anti-HD sentiment when presented with engineering observations that can't be duplicated in areas which have natural AM IBOC-hiss elimination filters shielding their residents.

If you're interested in purchasing any of these, I am about to start a company that will market such filters. They should be a very popular item in the coming years.

You'll sell five..uhhh that is if you buy one yourself. I posted a demo and how quickly we forget. I guess this is a case of I don't care what I hear, my mind is already made up!

 

[calstymes]

R.F. Burns suggested:

You'll sell five.. uhhh that is if you buy one yourself.

You mean about as many as the number of working HD receivers that will be sold?

I posted a demo and how quickly we forget. I guess this is a case of I don't care what I hear, my mind is already made up!

I heard it and it sounded great. But the cost to the rest of the AM band is too great for me to get behind or really interested in this technology. Sorry.

Besides, we never got the best solution. Just follow the history (whatever you can find) and the money. iBiQuity won, at least for now anyway.

 

[R.F. Burns]

R.F. Burns suggested:

You'll sell five.. uhhh that is if you buy one yourself.

You mean about as many as the number of working HD receivers that will be sold?

I posted a demo and how quickly we forget. I guess this is a case of I don't care what I hear, my mind is already made up!

I heard it and it sounded great. But the cost to the rest of the AM band is too great for me to get behind or really interested in this technology. Sorry.

Besides, we never got the best solution. Just follow the history (whatever you can find) and the money. iBiQuity won, at least for now anyway.

And that solution was? Which other hybrid system works for both AM & FM ? Perhaps if you told us what Ibiquity did that was so horrid, you might move some of us to take up your position. All I keep hearing is that we should believe what we're told, even though no facts about what Ibiquities supposed transgressions are ever given. I know that at least at this time, Kahn lost his bid in court and Ibiquity's HD is now the legal hybrid digital system as of last Thursday. How about some facts for once?

 

[calstymes]

R.F. Burns insisted:

Ibiquity's HD is now the legal hybrid digital system as of last Thursday.

You mean that there was a rulemaking which approved iBiQuity's IBOC as the approved hybrid digital system as of last Thursday. Administrative agencies in the executive branch of the federal government don't legislate. The use of the terms "legal" or "law" is incorrect as it pertains to FCC rulemakings, although as David aptly pointed out in another post, there are administrative "law" judges who hear cases that are based on the rulemakings of federal agencies.

How about some facts for once?

Look, I don't expect you or anyone else to listen to anything I have to say. I have said repeatedly that I am privy to events which occurred over the past 15 years by virtue of a) who I am or was, b) where I work or did, c) who I know or knew, or, d) any combination of the above. I will never state "facts" on this message board about which I am bound not to betray a confidence and to which I have been entrusted. It won't happen. I could end up getting in serious trouble with several people and I would rather avoid doing that for several reasons.

But if you search hard enough there are things which anyone can piece together for themselves. That notwithstanding, I am therefore expressing opinion and it should be treated as nothing more than that. That is, until you figure it out for yourself. Of course, if you aren't interested enough in figuring it out, then that's also ok. Keep thinking that by virtue of the observation you have made that you are unable to reproduce the AM interference that everyone else who is reporting it here has observed, the broadcast industry is the beneficiary of a wonderful technology that will keep it pertinent to the lives of every day people in the 21st century and save it from the depths of oblivion.

Follow the money!

 

[R.F. Burns]

R.F. Burns insisted:

Ibiquity's HD is now the legal hybrid digital system as of last Thursday.

You mean that there was a rulemaking which approved iBiQuity's IBOC as the approved hybrid digital system as of last Thursday. Administrative agencies in the executive branch of the federal government don't legislate. The use of the terms "legal" or "law" is incorrect as it pertains to FCC rulemakings, although as David aptly pointed out in another post, there are administrative "law" judges who hear cases that are based on the rulemakings of federal agencies.

How about some facts for once?

Look, I don't expect you or anyone else to listen to anything I have to say. I have said repeatedly that I am privy to events which occurred over the past 15 years by virtue of a) who I am or was, b) where I work or did, c) who I know or knew, or, d) any combination of the above. I will never state "facts" on this message board about which I am bound not to betray a confidence and to which I have been entrusted. It won't happen. I could end up getting in serious trouble with several people and I would rather avoid doing that for several reasons.

But if you search hard enough there are things which anyone can piece together for themselves. That notwithstanding, I am therefore expressing opinion and it should be treated as nothing more than that. That is, until you figure it out for yourself. Of course, if you aren't interested enough in figuring it out, then that's also ok. Keep thinking that by virtue of the observation you have made that you are unable to reproduce the AM interference that everyone else who is reporting it here has observed, the broadcast industry is the beneficiary of a wonderful technology that will keep it pertinent to the lives of every day people in the 21st century and save it from the depths of oblivion.

Follow the money!

Cal, your use of the word "insisted" sounds a little over the top, don't you think? It's my opinion that any reasonable person would use the word, could, might, even probably will, but insisted? C'mon get a grip on what this site is all about. Talk about reasonable, I have posted my findings using ordinary equipment from my suburban location. You and the other anti Iboc posters would tell me, forget what you hear and your results, believe us and what we say! You claim all sorts of underhanded behavior on the part of Ibiquity and yet post no details. Hey, if I was a litigant in a legal matter I wouldn't be spending any time posting on a board like this. If I had anything to say legal and otherwise it would be to my attorney in preparation for my case. I post to many boards, using audio demos to prove my points. I see you post to many of these boards as as well, using allegations but no proof, other than "I can't elaborate but take my word for it". Your extremely strong anti IBOC opinions are well known, so apparently this subject is very important to you. You nit pick about whether the commission can legislate or not. It's all minutia. Any reasonable person posting in here knows what I am talking about. I don't have the name or names of the individuals who will sign off on any document either. That doesn't mean that what the commission did on thursday will have any more of less weight, legally speaking. At this point however, we're heading into the bottom of the ninth and Iboc is up 2 nothing. Whether you or others approve of HD technology or not is of no importance to me because at least as of 3/26/2007, HD is the digital system which was accepted by the FCC. I will follow the news in the coming weeks and wish you and your friends well in your quest.

 

[calstymes]

R. F. Burns thusly spake:

Talk about reasonable, I have posted my findings using ordinary equipment from my suburban location. You and the other anti Iboc posters would tell me, forget what you hear and your results, believe us and what we say!

We are neither suggesting that you should forget what you hear or your results or that you should believe what we say. Of course you should be very proud of your results and consider yourself very lucky you are in a location where you cannot hear the interference that others have reported here (although I wonder if you ever tried the experiment of going east, crossing the river, going inland a bit and then recording the polish station again during the day). Do you think that all these reports are made up? What is extremely disconcerting is that you completely discount the observations of others just because you can't reproduce them where you are and that by virtue of your vast experience in the #1 market you are right and we are all a bunch of morons. Don't deny it. It is in the smugness jibes of your posts. I am just jibing back.

You claim all sorts of underhanded behavior on the part of Ibiquity and yet post no details.

Why should I? I'd be crucified if I did.

Hey, if I was a litigant in a legal matter I wouldn't be spending any time posting on a board like this. If I had anything to say legal and otherwise it would be to my attorney in preparation for my case.

Well neither would I. I am not a litigant in a legal matter about IBOC or anything else (at the moment). It is also doubtful that I will ever become a litigant in a legal matter about IBOC because I have no personal axe to grind. You have mistakenly presumed that I am a small broadcaster who has an axe to grind about IBOC simply because I said complaints will be (and have been) filed.

I post to many boards, using audio demos to prove my points. I see you post to many of these boards as as well, using allegations but no proof, other than "I can't elaborate but take my word for it".

I only post to this board and the NYRMB, which I see you do too. I neither read, nor post to any others.

Your extremely strong anti IBOC opinions are well known, so apparently this subject is very important to you. You nit pick about whether the commission can legislate or not. It's all minutia. Any reasonable person posting in here knows what I am talking about.

Yes, I'm nit picking. It's fun to nit pick, especially since I am so aggravated at the stupidity of all this. For such incredibly talented individuals on this message board it is a mystery to me how several of them can possibly think the AM IBOC solution is a good one. You may therefore conclude that I am an unreasonable person.

I don't have the name or names of the individuals who will sign off on any document either. That doesn't mean that what the commission did on thursday will have any more of less weight, legally speaking. At this point however, we're heading into the bottom of the ninth and Iboc is up 2 nothing. Whether you or others approve of HD technology or not is of no importance to me because at least as of 3/26/2007, HD is the digital system which was accepted by the FCC. I will follow the news in the coming weeks and wish you and your friends well in your quest.

Your sentiment is very kind and appreciated. I will therefore follow the news in the coming weeks as well and hope that your HD receivers don't turn into boat anchors.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I only post to this board and the NYRMB, which I see you do too. I neither read, nor post to any others.

Your extremely strong anti IBOC opinions are well known, so apparently this subject is very important to you. You nit pick about whether the commission can legislate or not. It's all minutia. Any reasonable person posting in here knows what I am talking about.

Yes, I'm nit picking. It's fun to nit pick, especially since I am so aggravated at the stupidity of all this. For such incredibly talented individuals on this message board it is a mystery to me how several of them can possibly think the AM IBOC solution is a good one. You may therefore conclude that I am an unreasonable person.

I don't have the name or names of the individuals who will sign off on any document either. That doesn't mean that what the commission did on thursday will have any more of less weight, legally speaking. At this point however, we're heading into the bottom of the ninth and Iboc is up 2 nothing. Whether you or others approve of HD technology or not is of no importance to me because at least as of 3/26/2007, HD is the digital system which was accepted by the FCC. I will follow the news in the coming weeks and wish you and your friends well in your quest.

Your sentiment is very kind and appreciated. I will therefore follow the news in the coming weeks as well and hope that your HD receivers don't turn into boat anchors.

[/quote]

I can listen to WRKL on the west side highway in Manhattan, far outside of their protected contour with no more interference from WCBS then ever and their signal is as weak as ever. Hey it took years for WRKL to get fulltime operation due to WPAT insisting that WRKL would cause harmful interference to them. The WRKL issue is interesting and really goes to the FCC's decision to not require radio stations to service their local communities. WRKL was purchased by Polnet, a Chicago broadcasters, who owns a Chicago rim shot station that is able to get enough RF into the Polish speaking communities near Chicago to make a go of it. They looked at NYC and thought that this 1KW station on 910 would put a fairly good signal into Brooklyn (and Elizabeth, NJ), where there's a fairly large Polish population as well. In NY with it's high RF environment and crowded broadcast bands that didn't really work as they thought it would. They would have done much better buying 1530 which is in heavily Polish, Elizabeth and also closer to Brooklyn, but they didn't want to, or couldn't spend the money required to purchase that property. Of course a Buffalo NY station would have been a wise purchase, due to the very large Polish speaking population there and purchasing a station would have been a lot less expensive but then again, they couldn't claim to advertisers that they had a signal in the lucrative NYC market. After WRKL they purchased WLIM which at 10KW they thought would cover Brooklyn and parts of Connecticut. The problem was that WLIM is highly directional towards the south during critical hours and at night. That is one of the reasons the station is now a Spanish language station. I am not attempting to be smug as you suggest. You and I might have a personality conflict that comes across as smugness, but all I read from the anti IBOC people are accusations. No audio demonstrations using today's normal table or car radios. Questions about 10 KHz audio when today's radios (which most of today’s population are using) don't pass that 10 KHz audio. I can put my super radio (hardly a esoteric radio) into wideband and might hear the IBOC sidebands (I'm guessing here) but if I did so, I'd hear all sorts of other junk from household and other electronic interference which is typical in a modern residential area. I can also say that outside of a few 50 KW clear channel stations, none of the other radio stations are strong enough at my location to provide clean mono audio in wideband mode. Hey I remember hearing complaints about WRKL and the squeal you'd hear when you tried to tune in the station. Of course the fact that most radios used a 455 KHZ IF helped. In the end if I want to listen to quality audio I'd listen to stereo FM broadcasts, as opposed to monaural AM radio. With FM I have additional formats available on my radio which otherwise don't exist in my market (or within listenable range). There are now more than 17 new formats otherwise unavailable to me on free radio, thanks to FM IBOC.

 

[Tom Wells]

Mr Burns, I did hear your recordings and all the analog clips from analog reception contain the hiss, regardless of radio.

I recorded and cleaned off the hiss from your taped copy, and admitted some hiss was from tape which actually could be used in
processing to provide artificial high frequencies. I posted the improved result, with out the background of hiss.

I did not remove something that was not there. Anyone can visit the car radio audio thread.

Please provide a recording from a consumer grade radio with no hiss on an AM analog signal from a hybrid AM, recorded in a medium-field
strength location.

No funny filters anywhere.
You must use a radio with physically tuned components, no selectable bandwidth, with built-in antenna.
I understand you will be tuning ti center to cancel the sidebands as best as possible.
I challenge you to provide such a sample at 128k.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Mr Burns, I did hear your recordings and all the analog clips from analog reception contain the hiss, regardless of radio.

I recorded and cleaned off the hiss from your taped copy, and admitted some hiss was from tape which actually could be used in
processing to provide artificial high frequencies. I posted the improved result, with out the background of hiss.

I did not remove something that was not there. Anyone can visit the car radio audio thread.

Please provide a recording from a consumer grade radio with no hiss on an AM analog signal from a hybrid AM, recorded in a medium-field
strength location.

No funny filters anywhere.
You must use a radio with physically tuned components, no selectable bandwidth, with built-in antenna.
I understand you will be tuning ti center to cancel the sidebands as best as possible.
I challenge you to provide such a sample at 128k.

Uhh, the original recordings made in the house were recorded on Dat tape and transfered to my hard drive as a digital source. Of course they audio you heard was recompressed but i have played that tape for many people and no one else has claimed they heard hiss. try again.

 

[Tom Wells]

Please check back to the original thread and listen to the link I posted to hear less of what isn't there.