AM HD TURNOFF PACE ACCELERATES

[Don Juannn]

This has been the argument of HD proponents for a long time - that those stations shouldn't have had listeners in those areas. Yet they did, and the financial consequences of lost coverage are very real to the stations involved.

No they are not. Most stations make money in their metro...and next to nothing outside of it.

Big signal stations like KSL, WABC, WLS, etc....whenever they do a "pi" spot...or a mail in contest find next to no one is listening in the "extra" coverage that is provided thru nighttime skywave, etc.

That is why most of those big nighttime signals do nothing to promote their (in some cases) impressive nighttime coverage.

 

[TheBigA]

I can't disagree with what you say, the government made the rule. But without a push from the radio industry it would never have happened.

As I said, that train left the station a long time ago. If you really want to bring up ancient history, those stations either shouldn't have been licensed in the first place, or allowed to move their frequency. Say what you will about politics and lobbying...the HD decision, as far as I'm concerned, simply follows the FCC's agenda that led to docket 80-90. Same justification: More stations, more diversity. That's what the FCC wants. It's all about cramming more licenses into the same dial. How that works is someone else's problem.

By the way, do you think that wanting the programming on KVMR to be heard in Sacramento ISN'T political? Do you want me to believe that?

 

[DaveBayArea]

By the way, do you think that wanting the programming on KVMR to be heard in Sacramento ISN'T political? Do you want me to believe that?

I'm speaking strictly from the standpoint of interference and field intensity.

Dave B.

 

[davideduardo]

I live basically down the street from my town's only station, and they run 43 watts at night on a graveyard channel. Are you seriously telling me that I should not expect the signal to be clean and noise free here within their protected service area, just because it's a pipsqueak of a signal at night?

I did not know there were any "graveyard" channel stations with powers in the 43 watt range. Almost all are 1 kw day and night, although a few still have the 250 watt power originally the maximum on those channels. the only exceptions would be stations that run lower power due to high efficiency antennas.

If you are referring to daytimers on regional channels (the graveyard channels are the previously designated Class IV frequencies) which got limited night powers, those stations are entitled to absolutely no protection... the powers were calculated to not interfere with the protected contours of other stations, but with no regards to whether the night signals were viable or listenable even 10 feet from the site.

 

[tomservo]

I live basically down the street from my town's only station, and they run 43 watts at night on a graveyard channel. Are you seriously telling me that I should not expect the signal to be clean and noise free here within their protected service area, just because it's a pipsqueak of a signal at night?

I did not know there were any "graveyard" channel stations with powers in the 43 watt range. Almost all are 1 kw day and night, although a few still have the 250 watt power originally the maximum on those channels. the only exceptions would be stations that run lower power due to high efficiency antennas.

If you are referring to daytimers on regional channels (the graveyard channels are the previously designated Class IV frequencies) which got limited night powers, those stations are entitled to absolutely no protection... the powers were calculated to not interfere with the protected contours of other stations, but with no regards to whether the night signals were viable or listenable even 10 feet from the site.

Thanks for the info, I was honestly not aware that some nighttime authorizations weren't entitled to protection. My nearby station is WHEP, licensed to Foley, Alabama on 1310 kHz. When I was a kid it was still 1 kW days only, but I've recently discovered it is authorized 2.5 kW days and 43 watts night.

Assuming they're not leaving the day power on all the time, I can say the 43 watts is plenty good enough for covering this small town. They run a 250 watt translator that is more than adequate, too.

 

[spunker88]

I live basically down the street from my town's only station, and they run 43 watts at night on a graveyard channel. Are you seriously telling me that I should not expect the signal to be clean and noise free here within their protected service area, just because it's a pipsqueak of a signal at night?

I did not know there were any "graveyard" channel stations with powers in the 43 watt range. Almost all are 1 kw day and night, although a few still have the 250 watt power originally the maximum on those channels. the only exceptions would be stations that run lower power due to high efficiency antennas.

If you are referring to daytimers on regional channels (the graveyard channels are the previously designated Class IV frequencies) which got limited night powers, those stations are entitled to absolutely no protection... the powers were calculated to not interfere with the protected contours of other stations, but with no regards to whether the night signals were viable or listenable even 10 feet from the site.

There is a 1kw day, 43 watt night station that I am about 6 miles from on 1470. When they switch over to 43 watts they are often really hard to hear and sometimes lost in the mixture of other stations. They have an FM broadcast as well so its easy to ID their AM signal since its the same as the FM. Seems they have been leaving the daytime power on a little too late these days/

 

[davideduardo]

There is a 1kw day, 43 watt night station that I am about 6 miles from on 1470.

1470 is not a "graveyard channel." The formerly designated Class IV stations are the "graveyarders" and are on 1230, 1240, 1340, 1400, 1450 and 1490.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The confusion might be due to the high nighttime interference free contour. A NIF contour can be established for any station, but a Class D is not protected. If there's a bunch of stations coming in on the frequency, it can sometimes sound like a Class C/Class IV, particularly post sunset when a bunch of stations may still be on day facilities. I guess there was an ex post facto issue with the PSSAs and PRSAs to allow more power than would be allowed with the same daytime pattern if the same power were used as Class Bs. They can't because if the effieciency is below 141 mV/m at 1 km, it is automatically Class D. This may also be increasing the de facto NIF of some former III-As and III-Bs which used to have very good signals. "Friday Night Lights" "STAs" add to this also this time of year.

 

[Savage]

Once upon a time, Class IV (graveyarders) on the six "local" AM frequencies were authorized with 250 watts unlimited - and some of the real oldtimers had authorizations of 100 watts day, 50 watts night. When I started in the business there were still a small number of these tinypower locals still operating that way. Within a year or two they all upgraded, pretty much, to 1kw/250w.

An interesting anomaly came from the FCC's 1963 daytime increase for graveyarders to 1kw/250. In many cases the increase required locals wanting the 1kw daytime power to install simple directional antennas - I think all of them were 2-tower systems - and the station would then go non-DA at NIGHT, the reverse of the usual situation.

 

[satech]

An interesting anomaly came from the FCC's 1963 daytime increase for graveyarders to 1kw/250. In many cases the increase required locals wanting the 1kw daytime power to install simple directional antennas - I think all of them were 2-tower systems - and the station would then go non-DA at NIGHT, the reverse of the usual situation.

For example, WEEX, which is 840 watts directional (2 towers) during the day, and 1000 watts non-directional at night:

http://www.radio-locator.com/info/WEEX-AM

 

[JohnnyElectron]

Motorola is pulling this crap with local police and fire departments; they 'sunset' replacement parts for their fully functioning VHF and UHF repeaters to force them into buying a (digital) or analog trunked system for a little podunk that doesn't need all the expensive bells and whistles; "but the parts from Motorola won't be available for our analog VHF/UHF system anymore, so we better swap.

Actually, our medium-sized city had the same problem AFTER they switched VHF&UHF to a new Motorola Analog 800MHz Trunked system - no future parts support, so they switched AGAIN, this time to digital, and it's been a disaster - can't hear the firefighters wearing a mask, worse coverage than analog for some reason (lower power)? Hell, their VHF system could be heard across the entire county and all four counties surrounding. Less, I digress; digital is NOT always better. Something works, stick with it analog AM radio band.

 

[travisl5678]

There is no factual basis to believe that anyone except DX-ers and hobbyists are doing so.

This thread centers on AM, so I'll talk about the AM situations we have in the San Francisco Bay Area. 1510, licensed to Piedmont, is quite strong in Walnut Creek and Concord. So is 1530 from Sacramento. Those stations are 20 KHz away from each other. But when 1530 turned on HD the 1510 signal picked up a sort of weird high-pitched noise. Most people had no idea what it was, but the engineers among us recognize it as a beat between the station's carrier and the ODFM carriers. The 2nd-adjacent interference is arguably more objectionable than 1st adjacent, because the desired station is still very clear. In our other big interference case, 910/920, the offending station (910) just drowns out 920 completely. This one is a bit worse than normal because they tried to shoehorn HD into a directional antenna system that wasn't really broadband enough to do it, so the HD signal doesn't get nulled the way it's supposed to.

FM is even worse in this hilly terrain. There are many instances of HD interference all over the Bay Area - even within the predicted city-grade contours. 107.5/107.7, 98.9/99.1, 92.1/92.3, and 91.5/91.7 come to mind. I agree that probably the DX-ers and hobbyists are the ones who know the problem is due to HD - you can add people who work in radio to that list. But the general public doesn't know any better, and they just switch to something else.

Dave B.

Apparently KFBK has shut off the IBOC, according to the SD Board. For me 1510 has always been weak in Concord, however I do remember a time when KFBK's IBOC as off and It came in with a pretty good signal.

 

[KB1OKL]

WTAG 580 has been off consistently for at least two weeks now, it was an IBOC daytimer only anyway.

 

[DaveBayArea]

Apparently KFBK has shut off the IBOC, according to the SD Board. For me 1510 has always been weak in Concord, however I do remember a time when KFBK's IBOC as off and It came in with a pretty good signal.

You're right. It's off. KNEW as well. I got 920 clear as a bell in Livermore this afternoon. It's odd that the two biggest offenders here in the Bay Area are now digital-free. KFBK is noticeably louder too. I can't speak for KNEW, because I never really used to listen to them. But they sound clean. Wonder if this is just a fluke or if CC decided to pull the plug for good.

Dave B.

 

[ddsparxx]

WHAS turned its IBOC back on after it's been off for a while, according to the DX&Reception board. I am saying...what the @%@&$?

 

[Savage]

Barry McLarnon reports: IBOC pop-count down two more stations, to 240, effective 12/19:

http://topazdesigns.com/iboc/station-list.html

"Silent night...." (and Silent Day too, for all the Walt Dismal and ABC kiddie stations which have gone el-darkeroo lately. Yet another HD Radio success story! All Hail The Savior of AM, HD!!)

Merry Christmas, all!

 

[Savage]

Can't help but notice: as the "green" entries increasingly spread across Barry McLarnon's page with each passing month ("green" indicating stations which had IBOC but which have turned it off) I notice an awful lot of Clear Channel properties appearing there.

Gotta wonder of DaveBayArea's onto something. I did have it on good authority that CC delegated decisions about whether to continue with AM-HD to local management about mid-2010.
Prior to that it was corporate diktat to use IBOC.

 

[tomservo]

WERC 960 Birmingham (Clear Channel) is not listed but ran HD for a long time. It has been off since they picked up an FM signal. The FM does run HD but it has horrible coverage.

Also WJLD 1400 Fairfield/Birmingham (Richardson Bcsting) is also off the HD wagon again. And like WERC, it probably has to do with them being on FM now, as they picked up a translator a while back.

 

[KB1OKL]

IBOC AM hissers down to 239 per Barry's sight. This getting to be fun.

 

[Savage]

Yep - IIRC the high-water mark for HD-AM was 292.

"High-water mark." Like a really nasty, toxic ring around your bathtub.

How well I recall jousting here ca. fall-winter 2007-2008 about how HD-AM would never crack 300 stations with the likes of Radioman100, clouseau, RF Burns, et al. HD-AM is indisputably circling the drain faster and faster....and the pop-count of stations is heading towards 200 instead of exceeding 300. (Out of 4700 AM stations.)

Where are the HD Storm Troopers who taunted us with the countdowns to 24-hour AM-HD back in September 2007?? Hope they're not going for jobs with iBiquity. From what I read before long they're gonna be running their operation out of a Sears utility shed with an orange extension cord running across the sidewalk to a nearby building.