AM HD TURNOFF PACE ACCELERATES

[davideduardo]

Bottom line: KNX interferes with KDUS being to be heard in its own market, including part of its own city of license.

The issue is whether the 1060 signal is being interferred with inside its own interference free night contour. In many cases, stations have a free ride since no other station encroaches on their interference free contour on certain radials... but there is no guarantee that such areas will be that way forever.

 

[Savage]

You're right, Len. The digital-analog mode-hopping in AM HD is distinctly more annoying during thunderstorms than are the lightning splashes we've been hearing on AM for 85 years.

Gleason points out the other major problem with HD. That's what's variously called "cascading" or "battling codecs." Most AM stations unavoidably play an assortment of digital audio sources from satellite receivers, digital processors and commercials digitally transmitted from ad agencies. The additive artifacting creates weird, tuneout-producing shrillness, uneven audio response, wild audio loudness fluctuations and unnatural chorusing.

Also, the heavier the airchain processing used - the more pronounced the objectionable artifacts. The HD codec can't keep up, so it just does a slapdash best-it-can-do encode. It sounds like crap. People want to hear clear, intelligible audio in high ambient noise environments. You know: like the car. It's stupid to pursue hi-fi audio for spoken word programming typical on AM, when intelligibility is a more sensible goal.

 

[Play Freebird]

HD receivers require considerable digital signal processing. Instead of devoting all of that power to the "exercise in futility" known as AM IBOC, wouldn't it make more sense to focus DSP's abilities on the AM analog signal? In particular, DSP could provide a variable-bandwidth IF filter that adapts to adjacent-channel interference conditions, a 10 kHz notch filter which would kick in at night, synchronous detection, and a noise blanker to reduce power line and lightning interference.

Of course, it could also decode AM stereo.

 

[pocket-radio]

And the patient is AM radio. AM HD is just a treatment that was applied to late and didn't work.

A typical listener of AM radio is 40+ and they grew up listening to AM radio.

Try changing that to 50+. Since agency buys seldom if ever are against 55+, there is a decreasing ad revenue base for AM.

Fact: Agencies buying 12-34 won't buy AM. And 21 year old media buyer queens, won't buy AM either or radio. Their weapon of choice is social media and the internet.
Fact: For agencies still buying, 35-64 AM is still relevant.
Fact: America is growing older and aging Boomer's with money are moving past the fifty year old mark. And as they live longer, they'll require more medical care. Can you say medial marketing?
Fact: Boomer's grew up with AM radio and still like it and can easily be reached with radio. If radio's Lemming's can move beyond kissing agency ass, and 12-34/25-25 AM radio still has a great long future. The biggest rated station's aren't always the biggest billers. you know that.

The patient you spoke of was misdiagnosed. And the treatment isn't helping, it's making things worst by wasting valuable resources and time.

AM's future was written well before HD became available.

Maybe in your mind. You suffer from group think.

Over the last few years, we have seen many significant AMs "rescue" their sales base by moving to FM or simulcasting on FM, further draining the band of "circulation" which affects the remaining AM negatively (look at Indianapolis AM shares after WIBC moved to FM).

Look at Jacksonville FL And WOKV. The AM band is still the big powerhouse. The FM only ads to their overall cume. 99+ 1 equals 100.

The Canadians wisely have been moving most AMs to FM, leaving just a few AMs in cities where diversity permits and requires additional voices. Market forces are effectively doing this in the US, but the AM skeletons remain, many doing very specialized formats or selling brokered time.

If AM programming (talk) is moving to FM and that's the trend then why do we need HD?

Radio is local! AM/FM or HD it's still local! It's about relationships! It's the one last protected land the internet can't compete on. Commodity Radio, AM/FM and especially HD won't cut it! [/quote]

Some radio is local. Most good radio is universal. In fact, in most of the world, national radio commands most of the audience.

I don't know what universal town you live in. But I think even New Yorkers still think of themselves as local, and still enjoying hearing content about their local market.

Radio's cume isn't growing, it's slowly shrinking and has been for some time.
Clear Channel the poster child for national radio, has built a national network
that's universal. Salad dressings on the shelves at Publix are like that too.
So if they're all universal, I might as well just buy the cheapest one.

The Reason HD was created in the first place was to compete against satellite radio.
The reason listeners were willing to cough up $12.95 monthly is because some listeners wanted more than universal programming.

[/quote]
What could it be? Duh, entertainment, passion, fun and people. Thankfully people still respond to people. [/quote]

And, in fact, the best national or regional talent nearly always wins over local talent... except in markets that are bigger than half the countries in the world.
[/quote]

It's not easy. Fact: In some markets, back in the day even Stern could beat by the local guy. In many markets across America local talent still beats the national franchises.

Fact: The national universal repeaters may have more prizes and money to giveaway, and even with all their firepower, the local competitor can still eat their shorts.
Less is more isn't better.

 

[EbolaMonkey]

I believe the FM IBOC system is here to stay, especially given the support & programming of NPR. Nobody is going to get too excited about it, but it will probably enjoy a gradual incorporation by receiver manufacturers.

This sounds about right to me. As long as the receivers continue to be manufactured and provided in more cars by default, there's no reason for FM HD to go away.

Doesn't mean it's not a big disappointment, though. It's 2010. Not the 60's or 70's when FM took so long to take off. These days, new technologies catch fire and get popular fast. HD radio has been out quite a while and remains extremely low on most people's gadget want list.

 

[davideduardo]

Fact: Agencies buying 12-34 won't buy AM. And 21 year old media buyer queens, won't buy AM either or radio. Their weapon of choice is social media and the internet.

There are no 12-34 buys. 18-34, yes. And agencies won't buy any station, AM or FM, that does not deliver ratings and a good CPP. Agencies don't care about the band, they care about efficient delivery.

Fact: For agencies still buying, 35-64 AM is still relevant.

There are essentially no 35-64 buys. There are essentially no 55+ buys. And AM, except for a few sports stations, gets mostly 45+, so it would not do well on a 35-64 comparison... the way AMs do well is selling more spots cheaper, essentially pricing on the 25-54 and giving the 55+ away.

Fact: America is growing older and aging Boomer's with money are moving past the fifty year old mark. And as they live longer, they'll require more medical care. Can you say medial marketing?

Radio is not the medium. That kind of advertising requires significant disclaimers, making it more appropriate for p´rint and online.

Fact: Boomer's grew up with AM radio and still like it and can easily be reached with radio. If radio's Lemming's can move beyond kissing agency ass, and 12-34/25-25 AM radio still has a great long future. The biggest rated station's aren't always the biggest billers. you know that.

Actually, in major markets that depend on agency business for the top stations to be profitable, you will find that the biggest billers are the stations with good numbers inside 18-54. That may mean Men 25-44 for a sports station (more are on FM now, by the way) or Hispanic females 25-44 (that being a prime Hispanic demo) but if you look at the big billers they either have a specific strength in those demos or, like talkers, have a ton of inventory.

AM's future was written well before HD became available.

When FM became the majority-share medium in 1978, we knew where things were headed.

Look at Jacksonville FL And WOKV. The AM band is still the big powerhouse. The FM only ads to their overall cume. 99+ 1 equals 100.

The FM nearly doubled the 25-54 numbers, and increased the station rank considerably. The 55+ are on AM

If AM programming (talk) is moving to FM and that's the trend then why do we need HD?

It's an FM thing, always has been. The AM was an afterthought, probably to keep the FCC happy.

I don't know what universal town you live in. But I think even New Yorkers still think of themselves as local, and still enjoying hearing content about their local market.

Most radio is locaction neutral. Taking a hometown request is not being local... it's being stupid. Save for some news (and most stations should not even be int he news business) and a bit of talk and sports, there is nothing that needs to be local.

Radio's cume isn't growing, it's slowly shrinking and has been for some time.

Wrong. Today's cume is the same as it was 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago.

Clear Channel the poster child for national radio, has built a national network

Clear Channel music stations have no national networks. Premier distributes talk shows, and many are national... just as they are on TV:

The Reason HD was created in the first place was to compete against satellite radio.

No, it was to be "digital."

The reason listeners were willing to cough up $12.95 monthly is because some listeners wanted more than universal programming.

All the satellite programming is universal, save the traffic channels.

It's not easy. Fact: In some markets, back in the day even Stern could beat by the local guy. In many markets across America local talent still beats the national franchises.

So rare that it is the exception, and often due to the national talent being on an inferior station.

 

[Savage]

Also R-I-P in AM-HD land: WWVA 1170, Wheeling.

 

[KB1OKL]

I believe the FM IBOC system is here to stay, especially given the support & programming of NPR. Nobody is going to get too excited about it, but it will probably enjoy a gradual incorporation by receiver manufacturers.

This sounds about right to me. As long as the receivers continue to be manufactured and provided in more cars by default, there's no reason for FM HD to go away.

Doesn't mean it's not a big disappointment, though. It's 2010. Not the 60's or 70's when FM took so long to take off. These days, new technologies catch fire and get popular fast. HD radio has been out quite a while and remains extremely low on most people's gadget want list.

Not to beat this to death but in 1988 I had a Chrysler with an AM stereo radio which actually worked didn't drop out and sounded great, I think most or all of their cars had them for at least several years. That technology never really caught on with a big three car manufacturer putting them in virtually all the cars they made, how can the HD proponents think that HD is going to succeed where a much better and much more available technology like AM stereo failed? Radio can shove a questionable technology like iBlock down the throats of consumers all they like and if they don't buy, it fails.

 

[Tom Wells]

It's been a pleasure to listen to WGTO 910 Cassopolis MI the past few days since WLS is back in their own territory.
And it's been a pleasure to listen to WLS!
Now the 1965 Dodge is in the body shop, and I'm in the 1972 Dodge.
We loaned it to my sister-in-law last summer and she broke the AM/FM changing mechanical linkage.....Grrr.
I'd forgotten about that when I parked the car last fall.
I'm stuck on FM for a while in the car now.

 

[Savage]

And the latest reports indicate WGY 810 Schenectady has been IBOC-less and hiss-free for the last two nights. No word on whether this is a typical HD Radio firmware meltdown or permanent.

Last I knew, the Capital District's other 50kw AM signal, ex-WPTR 1540 (a Crawford station) had dropped its IBOC digital over a year ago and it's still off.

 

[Savage]

Quote without comment - of course, as we would all expect, from the board's legendary David "Eduardo" Gleason:

"There's nothing (about radio) that needs to be local."

 

[davideduardo]

Quote without comment - of course, as we would all expect, from the board's legendary David "Eduardo" Gleason:

"There's nothing (about radio) that needs to be local."

Now I am wondering how you taint, flavor and bias the news on your little station....

You totally took that quote out of context and by doing so, totally changed its meaning.

I said

Most radio is locaction neutral. Taking a hometown request is not being local... it's being stupid. Save for some news (and most stations should not even be int he news business) and a bit of talk and sports, there is nothing that needs to be local.

And you edited that statement down to say "nothing should be local" where I said, in paraphrase, "except for some things like news, some (local) talk and (local) sports, there is not much that requires local origination." In other words, the DJs, the commentators on national issues, the morning show, etc., does not need to have a local origination to be good, and, in fact, such content may be vastly better when the content is the best available as opposed to "the best available locally at what we can afford to pay."

And I know the difference between the few situations that are enhanced by localism... I did 100% local news/talk three different times in a top 15 market, and made the top 10 with a 100% local talker in market #2. On the other hand, most stations in each of those markets were best served by not doing local news and talk (weather, sports, etc. are included in "news" for brevity).

Only a station or two today can be the news source... and that will be the one tuned to in severe weather conditions as well as during times of local emergencies or controversies. The rest of the stations do themselves damage, in fact, by attempting to be news sources only on special occasions. That's like saying, "I'm faithful to you, honey, 340 days of the year!"

 

[Savage]

On the contrary. The context was preserved perfectly. I simply shone the glaring light of truth on your overall obvious contempt for the radio industry graphically exemplified by your endlessly defeatist and negative posts here. One wonders why you bother posting at all on a radio-industry discussion board - other than to get your jollies by provoking people who come here to actually contribute, that is.

The endless obtuse obiter dicta about obscure and unverifiable Latin American radio experiences are another irritant. Who cares? This is the HD Radio board, not the Latin American Radio board. Go bore people over there, David.

Your arrogant comments included the sentiment that "taking requests is stupid." No, it's not - if done properly. You also opined, without stating why, "most stations should not be in the news business." (Well! I guess that settles THAT. The Cuyahoga ersatz-Latino Oracle has spoken!! All hail.) You also brayed "(other) than a bit of talk and sports, there is nothing that needs to be local." (And you think TAKING REQUESTS is stupid...)

I revealed these overbroad, uninformed generalizations and dismissals of radio's prime functions as the monumentally wrong sentiments which they are.

And, in typical condescension, you finish off this Treasure Trove Of Boorish Nonsense with a gratuitous swipe at my radio station, about which you know nothing. But why should WYSL be any different? You're capable of drawing incorrect conclusions from the sun's rising in the East.

 

[hubcity]

Alright, you two, do I have to pull this car over?

 

[8638]

[/quote]

Not to beat this to death but in 1988 I had a Chrysler with an AM stereo radio which actually worked didn't drop out and sounded great, I think most or all of their cars had them for at least several years. That technology never really caught on with a big three car manufacturer putting them in virtually all the cars they made, how can the HD proponents think that HD is going to succeed where a much better and much more available technology like AM stereo failed? Radio can shove a questionable technology like iBlock down the throats of consumers all they like and if they don't buy, it fails.
[/quote]

Funny you mention Chrysler radios of the 80's and early 90's. I was out in my 1994 Dodge Grand Caravan today. None of my FM presets were playing anything of interest, so I hit AM, and was punching through those presets when I hit on 1450 WCTC New Brunswick, NJ, playing oldies in AM Stereo. It really sounded good! And I was on the edge of this 1Kw station's coverage area.

AM stereo works, pretty much available wherever the signal is. AM IBOC works...sometimes, but not reliably, and certainly not far from the stick.

 

[davideduardo]

[/b]c=162344.msg1390496#msg1390496 date=1266429257]
On the contrary. The context was preserved perfectly. I simply shone the glaring light of truth on your overall obvious contempt for the radio industry graphically exemplified by your endlessly defeatist and negative posts here. One wonders why you bother posting at all on a radio-industry discussion board - other than to get your jollies by provoking people who come here to actually contribute, that is.

Nice try. You use many words to obfuscate the fact that you dramatically misquoted me out of context, totally spinning and distorting the meaning of my post.

I love the radio industry, but AM is dying and FM has to integrate with new media and new technology to survive, and at the end of the transition, there will be no transmitters in 540 to 1700 or 88 to 107. If we want our medium, which is not based on generating RF but on generating content to survive, we have to accept the need for change.

The endless obtuse obiter dicta about obscure and unverifiable Latin American radio experiences are another irritant. Who cares? This is the HD Radio board, not the Latin American Radio board. Go bore people over there, David.

The experiences referenced were in, first, a top 15 US market with stations licensed by the FCC in DC and, second, in another US market, #1 in billings and #2 in population rank.

And my experiences in Latin America are totally verifiable... many are documented with reference material that can be cross checked easily, using data right on the website listed below and which is independently verifiable. And, of course, most of the rest of the world, including our two closest neighbors, are eliminating or reducing to a bare minimum the use of the AM band. Perhaps a little more interest in what goes on in parts of the world that are better at planning for the future would be useful.

Your arrogant comments included the sentiment that "taking requests is stupid." No, it's not - if done properly.

Letting someone whose only qualifications are having a telephone program your radio station is stupid.

You also opined, without stating why, "most stations should not be in the news business." (Well! I guess that settles THAT. The Cuyahoga ersatz-Latino Oracle has spoken!! All hail.)

Just like I don't want to see recipes and child care advice in Popular Mechanics, most listeners don't want news on their music and entertainment sources. We have so many stations and other entertainment and information options that we expect each source to do one thing well. The AC station that gets us through the workday should not, per its own listeners, add newscasts and such. Listeners as a group are perceptive and smart and know how to get what they want or need at any given moment. Anyone who has spent time on the street talking to listeners knows that to be a fact with few exceptions.

You also brayed "(other) than a bit of talk and sports, there is nothing that needs to be local." (And you think TAKING REQUESTS is stupid...)

I actually said "news" and "sports" and "talk" but you, running true to form, dropped the "news" part. I later clarified that for brevity (and per the 60's and 70's standards of the FCC) "news" includes weather and the like, too.

I can't think of much else local that "needs" to be included on one or a few of the local broadcast array. Having a bad DJ playing music programmed by a less proficient PD is not the kind of local programming that will hold up to the options the public has today...

And, in typical condescension, you finish off this Treasure Trove Of Boorish Nonsense with a gratuitous swipe at my radio station, about which you know nothing.

It's a little station. Fact. That's not a swipe, unless you are living in a parallel reality where a station with a cume of less than 20,000 is considered a "large" station.

 

[pocket-radio]

"Having a bad DJ playing music programmed by a less proficient PD is not the kind of local programming that will hold up to the options the public has today..."

For once I agree with you! The industry is in trouble in part because we've stopped grooming new talent! We've stopped innovating and taking chances. Many music stations sound similar, playing the same 200 songs over and over. And the biggest offender Clear Channel, has fired more talent! Without creative talent, what does radio have left?

Besides New York and LA radio also happens in the top 50 markets! This is the heart of America. I've worked there and I can tell you local talent can be great and deliver numbers! HD has stalled in part because the programming sucks! it's worse than your bad DJ analogy, besides national music repeaters there's nothing on that you can't find anyplace else. It's like Pandora except you're listening to music someone else picked and there's no connection to listeners or the local market.

If AM radio is dying in some markets, it's because the content is no longer relevant
Building Rush and Sean Hannity repeaters will only take the industry so far. Again the AM-band and industry stopped taking chances, stopped innovating and stopped growing!
What's missing is relevance and a connection with local listeners.

Do you see a pattern?

We've been fooled, lied too by people with an agenda to sell HD licensing. For people who grew up with radio and like it, radio doesn't have a sound problem. It's the content stupid! Content matters more than towers or frequencies. In all reality, the device we now know as a cell phone, will be radio in the future. Listeners want to control content, they want a two-way connection. The 12-24's spend all their time with cell phones and the internet! 12 year old boys and girls won't have fond memories of listening to their favorite station and discovering music, like you and I did. That's been replaced by the internet and their cell phone! And moving forward to their spending years that could spell big trouble for radio.

HD operators should lease their spectrum to the Steve Jobs of the entertainment world.
Someone with a vision beyond, 25-54 and a tight playlist. College kids could do better.

 

[davideduardo]

Many music stations sound similar, playing the same 200 songs over and over. And the biggest offender Clear Channel, has fired more talent! Without creative talent, what does radio have left?

Stations in the same format across the country have always sounded very similar, and the closer that communications brings distant places, the fewer the differences will be. Just as Top 40 stations back to the 50's played much the same songs, AC stations or country stations or stations in any other format play the same things in Bellingham as in Brimingham. You can't blame Clear Channel for the fact that national TV and other national media... including YouTube, iTunes, etc., create national tastes with far less localism and regionalism than ever before.

Besides New York and LA radio also happens in the top 50 markets! This is the heart of America.

There are Top 50 markets from San Juan to San Francisco... whether they are in the traditional Heartland or not, there is simply little difference between stations of a genre because people everywhere like the same things... some like AC, some like oldies, etc., and so every market has much the same array of mass appeal formats.

I've worked there and I can tell you local talent can be great and deliver numbers!

With too many stations, radio revenues off in proportion to the economy's decline, and all the new media competing for listeners, stations can not afford to have local talent in many cases... and can get better ratings with syndicated offerings with national talent, too.

...besides national music repeaters there's nothing on that you can't find anyplace else.

Why would you expect that radio from city to city would be different. AC gets great numbers in Fresno and in Fayetteville... so both, and every city in between will have an AC station, and each will play nearly the same songs because those are the hits in that fromat.

It's like Pandora except you're listening to music someone else picked and there's no connection to listeners or the local market.

Actualy, since you brought up the TOp 50 markets, you should know that the listeners pick the songs... within a format, of course... on the significant players in each city. Stations, even in this economy, do significant research to find out what songs to play and how often to play them. While the differences are subtle to those who don't understand each format, there are real differences in the music on stations in major markets and that is the product of local research.

If AM radio is dying in some markets,...

There is no "if" about this. It's a fact. In 1978 AM fell below 50% of listening. It's now below 20%, and in people under age 55, it's more in the vicinity of 10%, and under 35 it is below 5%. And every year the listening is lower, and the age of the remaining listeners is higher. And the decline is a multi-decade trend in every market.

it's because the content is no longer relevant

Everything possible has been tried on declining AMs, and the only formats that have worked with any signficant audience have been talk variants (news, news/talk, sports) and even these formats are now moving to FM because, simply, no matter what you put on AM, the under-55 crowd won't come to the party. Yet move the same programming to FM, and much of it does very well in that under-55 group.

And those stations in the top 50 markets focus on 18-54 because there is no money in 12-17 and 55+.

 

[stacker]

David "Eduardo" said

Most radio is locaction neutral. Taking a hometown request is not being local... it's being stupid. Save for some news (and most stations should not even be int he news business) and a bit of talk and sports, there is nothing that needs to be local.

Let's analyze this astounding statement "Eduardo Style".

Most radio

Clearly that must mean some, but not all. It certainly clarifies things, since television is apparently off the table.

is locaction neutral

Not sure what "locaction neutral" means. As to location neutrality, however, it is true that radio works most everywhere, except under bridges and overpasses. HD radio is another matter. Clearly not location neutral. It may be locaction neutral however.

Taking a hometown request is not being local... it's being stupid.

Hmm. Interacting with the listener using the call and response angle and tying them to the station seems quite local. Of course you could be taking requests via an 800 number. In that case, it's likely not local. Or it could just be a bunch of mean spirited locals trying to run up your LD bill by using the 800 number.

Save for some news (and most stations should not even be int he news business) and a bit of talk and sports, there is nothing that needs to be local.

Well, that settles it. Get Dial Global, WW1, Univision, Citadel and Premier on the phone. We can pare this operation back to two full timers and a handful of commission only sellers.

Thanks for the advice, Dave.

 

[TheBigA]

So I'm curious...I saw the subject of this thread: "AM HD Turnoff Pace Accelerates." I read the first article, and all the stations mentioned, like Citadel, turned off their HD a long time ago. I've gone through all the posts, and don't see any new additions to the list. So can someone tell me who in the last six months has turned off HD?