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AM on the Accurian - I Can't believe my ears!

I almost don't where to start. At this point I have only made a cursory test of the FM and multi channel, and can't complain about
what I found there. I'm only 7 miles from the downtown Chicago FMs, and FM works fine.
I can hear extended range when the HD FM kicks in, the differences greater or less depending on individual stations.
The time sync was good on all the HD FM-1s here. Probably has the same delay as the AM, but I haven't checked yet.

The AM behavior and the digital signal processing are almost incomprehensible.
Compared to any other radio, ....how do I put this.. it's a sensitive as 5 tube table radio with a "dead" IF tube and a weak or
misaligned RF section. It gets the the big local signals only to any effect. More on this later.

I will briefly repeat my observations from another thread.

I tried listening to my part 15 AM with 20-ish to 20k-ish audio. Real weird. First there's the quarter-second delay in analog.
Either real low modulation or real low power opened up the bandwidth to just under 10khz ( no whine ).
Low, low power (almost off) with full mod turned the audio into huge clots and braps, while "control radios" sounded beautiful if weak.

Raising RF and audio to normal levels is immediately evident as bandwidth shuts down to something aproximately like a telephone.
Full modulation gives the DSP fits. Dancin' Machine by The Jackson 5 and the theme from Dragnet by Ray Anthony are causing
spiky pumps in loudness in any short gaps, which if followed by a percussive sound, appears as a 1/10 of second volume burst
maybe 6db over average which is at all other times is maintained with an iron fist. In a way it reminds me of the short-time constant
AVC setting on a Collins 390, which does not follow music well at all, but is perfect for CW in choppy fading.
Anyway, musical this ain't. It stabs, punches and pumps. The more dynamics and positive-going mod you give this, the more it
staggers like a drunk. It's trying to give a LOT of audio compression on its own apparently.

Spike Jones' "You always hurt the one you love" is causing massive over/undershoots.

I thought I was hearing the bandwidth change only while in the low-to mid levels.
It is most drastic there, but even at full modulation, this effect comes in and out as eventual low-level material appears.
The effect is like hearing the EQ suddenly change on the old long lines, or even like sideband fading on shortwave.
Also much like the sound of tape alignment changing while listening to an old mistracking tape.

I'm not going to pick faults with the speaker/cabinet/size issue. It has enough low end response given its size.
Not too boomy, perhaps a bit. There is a characteristic mantra-like 'ooooooommmm" noise heard on every weak
or "empty" AM frequency, which appears over a second or two and then continues.
At first I thought it was normal carrier beat, but it's the EXACT same on every frequency, like a pitch pipe.
It's down low, maybe 5 percent, but it ain't on the control radios. It may BE a beat freq, if there is something in the
DSP has an affinity for putting that note at advantage, perhaps to extend frequency low end as is done in port tuning of speakers.

As I'm listening, it's becoming clear there is something really wrong in the "release" timing of the AGC.
Removing my compression on transmit and lowerering mod to "adequate" minimizes the defect.
It can't seem to deal with positive-going swing. That sets it a pumpin'.
I don't care for any of tone presets much, but I leave it on ROCK.

There is a nice one called "NORMAL" where the letters NOR are positioned over MAL inside a nice SQUARE box.
Very nice touch. :D It's like finding clues in code.

For regular reception it's very hard of hearing, as I mentioned above. WSB, WSM which could be copied easily on the
'62 Mopar radio, 1982 Sony tabletop and Sangean 803 were barely detectable on the Accurian, despite best loop positioning.
Even mid-level signals of what I think of as Chicago stations were too weak to listen to.
The radio was begging me to open it up and see who had fiddled with the IF trimmers.
The big locals sound bad, since their strength shuts the bandwidth down to narrow.
WLS sound great though, because it's I little farther away for me than the others and the weaker signal opens it up.
But even as I listen to WLS in analog, I hear the bandwidth opening and closing.

Copying WCBS 880 here in the basement by turning the loop....the "oooooooooommmmmmmm" is almost as loud as WCBS.
Nothing else going downward until 780 WBBM in iboc, The Accurian hides the giant hissing sound on adjacent frequencies, offering
instead a dull low rasp. The HD AM codec is less troubling on busy music than it is on voice.
On voice, everyone has the smearing rasp on the crisp information in their vocals.
There's nowhere to hide it on voice.

WHAT'S THIS! on AM 670 WSCR we hear the Dan Patrick show, where the decoded AM HD has the exact SAME sound
as good old fashioned FM multipath hiss! After listening a while, this is not only local content, only the Dan Patrick show network.

WSM barely detectable under the ooooooommmmm.

Not much I can think of now....the display hasn't freaked out any tonight as it did last night, when
AM1620 changed into Z?TX.

Should I make some recordings of this? It's pretty like a car wreck.
 
Tom... In the interest of full disclosure: I have never held an HD Accurian in my hands. I am familiar, though, with its AM audio demodulation capabilities [or lack thereof] as I’m in possession of several airchecks of 900 WNMB – North Myrtle Beach, SC recorded from the Accurian. These have been widely-circulated on the net to [very poorly] allege its so-called capacity to decode C-QUAM AM Stereo. As the WNMB service area begins less than an hour-drive north of my home, and I frequently visit Myrtle Beach - I am well-acquainted with this station. It is music intensive [Oldies] and technically competent... I can guarantee they are fully and exceptionally modulated.

The first thing I notice upon reviewing these off-air recordings [from the Accurian] is the horribly-restricted audio bandwidth. I fully concur with your observation that a maximized transmit modulation level will produce 2 kHz audio response [at best] on this radio! I also detected what appeared to be a “double-processing condition” [what one would hear if listening to overly-compressed audio that endured a second dose of heavy processing]... Possibly the AGC "pumping" you noted? Since I had heard the direct off-air WNMB audio signature, and had always found it to be pleasing - I first thought this aberration to be a case of poorly encoded or re-encoded and re-sampled mp3 artifacts. Upon your report here, it is obvious that the aggravating condition originated with the Accurian receiver.

It is somewhat unfortunate that this radio has enjoyed some level of promotion for its “ability” to deliver the C-QUAM AM Stereo experience. I could NOT DISAGREE MORE! I own FIVE C-QUAM AM Stereo-capable receivers [in this chronological order beginning in 1985]: Sony’s SRF-A1 “Walkman”; Carver’s TX-11B; Denon’s TU-680NAB [the first to earn AMAX compliance, and generally considered to be at the peak of consumer-targeted AM performance]; Sony’s SRF-A300 [a table AMAX model available via special import]; and my newest “curiosity item” – the second generation 2008 hand-made Meduci AMX-2000 which incorporates Motorola’s seldom-used third generation MC13028 C-QUAM decoder chip PLUS virtually every reception-enhancing and audio quality feature on the AM “wish list”... I couldn’t resist!

A few weeks ago, I was in Conway, SC – about 25-miles west of the WNMB TX site. I toted the small Meduci, a Terk AM Advantage tuned loop antenna, and a robust Sony boom-box – plugged everything together – easily tuned WNMB – and was floored at the exceptional stereo audio quality. During the daytime, I might as well have been listening to FM! There is NO EARTHLY COMPARISON with compromised “HD Radio” on the AM band [which in the real world – is incapable of dependable STEREO service]. Voices were fully natural [no “fizzies”] and music was sterling! ‘Too bad this technology fell-short on its first try... I’d LOVE to see it get a second chance... Only if...

Finally, Tom – I find your idea [from the Little Rock thread] for your Accurian becoming a “hot potato” to be amusing and mildly interesting. Hey Bob Savage and KB10KL... I might be up for it if you guys are ;)
 
Here's the Meduci website with lots of info on the $150 hand-made per order 2000-series AMAX AM tuner:

http://meduci.com

This small little box sounds beautiful on analog mono AND the one C-QUAM AM Stereo station [Oldies] I have listened to on it [it's adaptive wideband multi-stage I.F. with "graceful fade to mono"]. 'Doesn't look "purdy" and I don't care for the crude tuning... reminds me of a 1970 Radio Shack "FlavorRadio" - I chose Blue. NO built-in antenna - you choose your level of incoming RF. It's "Spartan" - but IT WORKS - sounds GREAT - I get my "retro blast"... AND IT'S FUN :)
 
How can an HD radio be made to sound "CD quality" or even noticebly better when used in a small radio with 3 inch speakers a foot apart and an audio amplifier with 10% distortion at a few of watts output?

Why, just give it trashy analog AM and FM RF front ends of course!

Then everyone fooled will rave "HD radio is the savior of AM and FM broadcasting".
 
hipporadio said:
Finally, Tom – I find your idea [from the Little Rock thread] for your Accurian becoming a “hot potato” to be amusing and mildly interesting. Hey Bob Savage and KB10KL... I might be up for it if you guys are ;)

I'm on for it, sounds interesting and cheap enough. Hot potato ;D
 
Let's get Tom's phone number on privite Email and set it up. I can easily travel upstate - monitor and record WNMB. I can also listen to the boring and un-promoted HD-2 services in ChasTown, and report "how well" the Acurrian snags them :D
 
Tom - you and I have a couple of things in common, and one of them is that we really, really, really wanted these HD-AM radios to 'work' on everything that the AM band can sent out to them.
I wish these HD radios all had a 'secret' "manual mode" where we could force the analog bandwidth out to 7.5KHz or 10KHz; I wish you could get a real 3rd generation CQuam decode out of these with the 10KHz audio bandwidth; I wish the damn AVC, AGC, whatever, worked without muting the audio level anytime there is the slightest interference anywhere within 30KHz of your frequency it 'sqeezes' the AM audio down to nothing. Is it the DSP audio, or DSP I.F. or DSP RF that is freakin' out on these radios? The only thing good I've found on my two HD-AM radios is that it severely mutes the IBOC buzzsaws on my (Canadian) stations that I listen to that are 20KHz either side of IBOC-AM stations in the States so that I can hear them again, as my decent bandwidth AM radios can't hear them over the hissss anymore.
I really wish that they would put the Motorola Symphony chipset in these HD radios and then sell them to the public - I've gotta believe that their superb DSP noise blanking, stereo, etc would have been a great product for the masses that still listen to AM radio.
Does anybody have anybody 'high up the food chain' that make these HD chipsets that will listen to a couple of engineers and their thoughts on how to improve the currently very weird operation of the AM reception on the current round of HD radios? Both Directed Electronics HD units I have are horriffic on AM, and on AM-HD voice is very raspy the first 10 minutes of operation in HD too.
Anybody listening that can improve these rigs?
 
I don't seem to find the AGC being fooled by any of the market AM signals, but then WLS is 40 miles away, and the others which are closer
don't run over 100% mod anymore to protect the iboc, so the pumping isn't a problem on them.

Can't get 1300 Disney do decode HD, nor 1390 to decode in HD.

I don't know if WLS does CQUAM at night, but this radio doesn't do anything different for 890 at night.

If you want to hear the Accurian pump like mad, I think you need to be really near-field.
I was testing with the radio 2 feet from the transmitter.

I think I'll try to couple in a tuned loop tonight and see if I get anything with a real antenna from 1925.

Maybe we should limit the audition time to one month, someone else should suggest how much less each subsequent user pays,
and we could have all the takers for the next round submit their names. My 4-yr old will pick the names from slips of paper
in a hat. Next person must provide their own 4 year old or functional equivalent.

I tried making some time-corrected recordings, delaying the analog 100ms to one channel to the "live-delayed" digital.
If anyone can suggest a good free file hosting site, I'd rather not put these on my podcast page.
I made some one with mikes but there's too much L to R leakage of high frequenciies offf the "good" radio.
Maybe I'll record off the headphone jack to l channel from the Accurian, and straight off the volume control of the 1962 Mopar for r channel.
No leakage that way.


Here's a question- Why weren't all HD radios required to first conform to AMAX standards?
What the point of a product that goes from really bad sounding to artificially crisp unless it's to make the old technology sound
worse than it really is?
Wouldn't they want the VERY best sounding AM analog reproduction AS WELL?
Then it could blend from very good sounding to ...whatever you'd like to characterize the HD as.
But there'd be no need for the analog to sound anywhere as dead and lifeless as the ibiquity design has it.
There are already plenty of buttons. Why can't there be one for bandwidth, or that just makes it work like a normal radio without
the DSP and digital delay? I believe ibiquity not only wants to kill off analog, they are willing to poison it with sloppy, even wrongful engineering in order to make AM sound extra-bad. I think it's intentional and tells me even more about ibiquity.

Why? WHY? Why would the bandwidth go down with higher RF input? As hippo says, it should go out!
Was this dyslexia or an intentional feature to make your favorite strong, non-HD stations now sound the worst of all on your HD radio?

They couldn't have engineered it any better to hurt all analog stations equally, regardless of size.
Especially if all HD radios act this way when handling AM signals. Seems likely to me.
They run it through the same mill.
 
Tom Wells said:
I believe ibiquity not only wants to kill off analog, they are willing to poison it with sloppy, even wrongful engineering in order to make AM sound extra-bad. I think it's intentional and tells me even more about ibiquity... They couldn't have engineered it any better to hurt all analog stations equally, regardless of size.

"NAB to Seek FCC Approval of Major IBOC Power Boost"

"For some broadcasters, however, the fact that the NAB has apparently signed on to the recommendation without first revealing details of this rather secretive study to its general membership is both striking and troubling."

http://radiomagonline.com/digital_radio_update/digital-radio-update-020608/

I think that you are dead-right on this point. This NAB-sponsored study was, no doubt, approved/backed by iBiquity and would probably cause (if approved) massive interference to adjacent FM stations. A while back, I remember Struble being quoted as saying, "if half the AM stations disappeared, no one would notice". What a chump!
 
Yes. A chump. No arrogance evident with Mr. Strew-bull, THAT's for sure.

Perhaps a more pertinent observation: "if ALL of iBiquity and its entire accursed HD boggledebotch disappeared tomorrow, no one would notice."

Except for the lapdog limp-wrist corporate engineers, dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks managers, myopic idealists and Alliance members who lustfully signed onto the HD mess in the first place. All 187 of them. And a couple of dozen loyal HD listeners camped out under IBOC-originating towers. (Yes, yes, IBOC boosters, I know I'm exaggerating - for effect. But not by much.)

Oh - I forgot. Someone else would notice if HD disappeared tomorrow: thousands of appreciative, perceptive analog listeners who would immediately note the abrupt departure of the incessant tuneout-producing, irritating HD Radio promos. The HD promos have got to be a major contributor to declining TSL in recent books.
 
Savage said:
Oh - I forgot. Someone else would notice if HD disappeared tomorrow: thousands of appreciative, perceptive analog listeners who would immediately note the abrupt departure of the incessant tuneout-producing, irritating HD Radio promos. The HD promos have got to be a major contributor to declining TSL in recent books.


The second I hear one of those irritating insulting sophomoric ads I tune right out, (Radio with a boob job). Let's get this hot potato thing going, I would like to try an iBlock radio but I sure as hell aren't going to put a penny into iNiquity's pocket. I'll share expenses like has been brought up before though.
 
I liken Struble to the respiratory system that has spread this malignant cancer throughout the industry. It seems that even media consultants are afraid to mention Struble's name, as they always just refer to iBiquity (even Gorman). When CCU, Citadel, Cumulus, etc finally go down in flames, they will take their great IBOC savior with them, and Bobby will be retired on some Caribbean island without reciprocity laws.
 
GreedMongers went out on a limb and said:

I liken Struble to the respiratory system that has spread this malignant cancer throughout the industry. It seems that even media consultants are afraid to mention Struble's name, as they always just refer to iBiquity (even Gorman). When CCU, Citadel, Cumulus, etc finally go down in flames, they will take their great IBOC savior with them, and Bobby will be retired on some Caribbean island without reciprocity laws.

It is the good that the media consultants are wising up. There is a grand awakening going on now, and it's good!

But don't forget the IPO. Ibiquity needs the IPO to pay off its speculative investors. That's the only way Bobby is going to be able to retire on one of those Caribbean islands.
 
Cal Stymes said:
It is the good that the media consultants are wising up. There is a grand awakening going on now, and it's good! But don't forget the IPO. Ibiquity needs the IPO to pay off its speculative investors. That's the only way Bobby is going to be able to retire on one of those Caribbean islands.

Yea, I've noticed more-and-more negativity by media consultants, and a bit more by the press (but there still is a lot of hoopla every time there is the slightest development, such as the iTunes tagging joke). Of course, Struble will claim that 2007 was a breakthrough year for HD receiver sales:

"HD Radio spinners claim a breakthrough year: Pulling a fast one"

"According to a press release from the Alliance 330,000 HD receivers were sold last year. This is a 725 per cent increase from the 40,000 sets purchased a year earlier and therefore 2007 was a 'breakthrough year' for the technology. In 2008 they will sell a million of the things."

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/02/08/hd-radio-spinners-attempt-fast
 
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