I decided to listen to a couple of old airchecks from the 60s and 70s on tophour today, and noticed something that surprised me. While most airchecks even from the 80s on fm aren't that full sounding, all these sound clearer than I expected, especially for am radio recorded at that time. They were a lot clearer than today's am stations. Was there something in the technology that changed or are am radios today not meant to put out that much sound quality then they try to make up for it these days with hd?
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am radio in the 60s
- Thread starter bobdavcav
- Start date
S
searadiofreak
Guest
I think you already hit the nail on the head. Seattle, due to topography was a late-developing FM market. AM signals in the 60's (and even into the early 70's), was where it was at. Seattle had great AM's during the 60's and I am positive there was a lot of energy put into the sound. But you are right, not so much today. KVI, KJR, KOMO, and even KING and KOL were nicely processed AM's for the day.
AM can sound REALLY GOOD. But unfortunately, most consumer grade radios today are made with AM as an afterthought. Engineers themselves are fairly indifferent too as a by-product (there's only so much fidelity you can squeeze out of a tuner designed not to reproduce more than 2500 Hz of audio fidelity.) It doesn't help AM's survival. But it's obsolescence is inevitable.
AM Stereo was the last great hope for AM and COULD have made a difference, had we had ONE system and mandatory manufacturer requirements for new stereos.
AM Stereo was the last great hope for AM and COULD have made a difference, had we had ONE system and mandatory manufacturer requirements for new stereos.
Agreed.
You could't touch KOMO and their "Big Timber" jingles, or KJR, with their well-understood Ampliphase transmitters (Pat says the legend about the railroad track-augmented ground system is true), or KING 1090 during the disco days. Those stations were sweet sounding, whether you liked their format or not.
You can probably lay the blame for today's wonderful AM "sound" squarely at the feet of digital processors & their brick-wall clipping and NRSC filters, HD and the overabundance of stations, all screaming at each other at night. The receiver guys just adjusted to suit what we send nowadays.
In any case, other than KIXI's format, which I hope they never change, I don't think there's much music left on AM that really pays the bills anymore. You can squish and clip and run the asymmetry of a talk show right up to the rails, and not many people seem to notice.
In the '70s, one of the best-sounding transmitters in Yakima was an old Collins 21B. It had a bad modulation transformer and couldn't do highs very well without blowing off the air. However, it had a bass-line to die for, and country sounded really good on it. They fed it with nothing more exotic than an old Sta-Level and a Gates tube-limiter. We all thought it was one of the best sounding signals in the market... back then. I wonder what something like that would sound like today, put up next to a solid-state transmitter and an Optimod.
You could't touch KOMO and their "Big Timber" jingles, or KJR, with their well-understood Ampliphase transmitters (Pat says the legend about the railroad track-augmented ground system is true), or KING 1090 during the disco days. Those stations were sweet sounding, whether you liked their format or not.
You can probably lay the blame for today's wonderful AM "sound" squarely at the feet of digital processors & their brick-wall clipping and NRSC filters, HD and the overabundance of stations, all screaming at each other at night. The receiver guys just adjusted to suit what we send nowadays.
In any case, other than KIXI's format, which I hope they never change, I don't think there's much music left on AM that really pays the bills anymore. You can squish and clip and run the asymmetry of a talk show right up to the rails, and not many people seem to notice.
In the '70s, one of the best-sounding transmitters in Yakima was an old Collins 21B. It had a bad modulation transformer and couldn't do highs very well without blowing off the air. However, it had a bass-line to die for, and country sounded really good on it. They fed it with nothing more exotic than an old Sta-Level and a Gates tube-limiter. We all thought it was one of the best sounding signals in the market... back then. I wonder what something like that would sound like today, put up next to a solid-state transmitter and an Optimod.
Much more attention was paid to the overall sound quality years ago. Some stations still sound reasonably good: KOMO, KJR, KPTK.
And some sound ghastly. 1250 sounds like a 5kHz network feed, and worse yet, it's the same in HD. (I can't imagine why they'd _have_ an HD transmitting audio that bad. Somebody wasted _lots_ of money.)
KRKO and KKXA could sound great if they dumped the HD and put out fully-modulated better-quality analog output.
Most listeners aren't listening on HD receivers anyway, and the hash and low fidelity justmakes those stations unpleasant to listen to.
KKXA plays a nice selection of country music, but, (sorry, Paul), the HD compromises the quality.
Fortunately for AM listeners, apparently neither KJR nor KOMO can go HD without badly interfering with the other, so both still sound good.
CBS is a big proponent of HD, so we're fortunate that KPTK doesn't have it.
KKOL only has a peanut-whistle signal now, so they can't be heard well enough to matter.
And 1050 has so much noise on their sidebands during some programs that I have to check to make sure they _haven't_ gone HD.
Another factor is the way music is made today versus the 60s.
Most current music is processed to the max, and the dynamics suffer.
And our electronic devices put out interference on all bands, especially AM.
Stations try to crank up the modulation and processing to compete with the extra noise, but the result is a noisy band with worse-sounding stations on it.
And some sound ghastly. 1250 sounds like a 5kHz network feed, and worse yet, it's the same in HD. (I can't imagine why they'd _have_ an HD transmitting audio that bad. Somebody wasted _lots_ of money.)
KRKO and KKXA could sound great if they dumped the HD and put out fully-modulated better-quality analog output.
Most listeners aren't listening on HD receivers anyway, and the hash and low fidelity justmakes those stations unpleasant to listen to.
KKXA plays a nice selection of country music, but, (sorry, Paul), the HD compromises the quality.
Fortunately for AM listeners, apparently neither KJR nor KOMO can go HD without badly interfering with the other, so both still sound good.
CBS is a big proponent of HD, so we're fortunate that KPTK doesn't have it.
KKOL only has a peanut-whistle signal now, so they can't be heard well enough to matter.
And 1050 has so much noise on their sidebands during some programs that I have to check to make sure they _haven't_ gone HD.
Another factor is the way music is made today versus the 60s.
Most current music is processed to the max, and the dynamics suffer.
And our electronic devices put out interference on all bands, especially AM.
Stations try to crank up the modulation and processing to compete with the extra noise, but the result is a noisy band with worse-sounding stations on it.
Hmm. Generally I don't notice a lot of processing issues on am, KKDZ is especially bad, and KVI could use some work, kind of sounds like phone quality, while KKDZ has way to much high end. The thing I noticed though is that some of those clips could have just as well have been fm stations broadcasting in mono they sounded so clear, while most fm airchecks from even as late as 99 and some even from today that use not good equipment sound like am radio today.
Radios were better, and there was a different standard for audio on AM in the 1960s. Of course it also depends on how the tracks were recorded.
If the 60s clips were recorded on reel at 7-1/2 IPS, they'd sound infinitely better than cassettes or lower-bit-rate mp3s.
As for KVI and KKDZ, KVI used to sound extremely good when they were oldies in the late 80s. KKDZ really doesn't have too many highs; that's an audio illusion, not even a difference in preference between you and me.
What they do have is no real highs and no real lows. It's audio limited to 5kHz, maybe from a bad phone line, so there's just no dynamic range to speak of, which stands out even more because they play music.
Find an online Radio Disney feed, or even listen to it on SiriusXM, and there's an astoundingdifference, even considering thatKKDZ is on AM.
I understand and agree with your point; I was just layingout some reasons for it, along with conditions which contribute to the decline of AM fidelity today.
As for FM, much of it is much too processed, in a tinny, unrealistic way.
I worked for a very well-processed AM years ago, and the wide-band audio from the air monitor sounded better than any current FM in Seattle, except maybe for KING.
An additional note: It's claimed that FM HD sounds better. In my opinion, it really doesn't.
But the difference people hear when listening to HD is a more natural sound--not because HD is more natural, but because less audio processing is used
If the 60s clips were recorded on reel at 7-1/2 IPS, they'd sound infinitely better than cassettes or lower-bit-rate mp3s.
As for KVI and KKDZ, KVI used to sound extremely good when they were oldies in the late 80s. KKDZ really doesn't have too many highs; that's an audio illusion, not even a difference in preference between you and me.
What they do have is no real highs and no real lows. It's audio limited to 5kHz, maybe from a bad phone line, so there's just no dynamic range to speak of, which stands out even more because they play music.
Find an online Radio Disney feed, or even listen to it on SiriusXM, and there's an astoundingdifference, even considering thatKKDZ is on AM.
I understand and agree with your point; I was just layingout some reasons for it, along with conditions which contribute to the decline of AM fidelity today.
As for FM, much of it is much too processed, in a tinny, unrealistic way.
I worked for a very well-processed AM years ago, and the wide-band audio from the air monitor sounded better than any current FM in Seattle, except maybe for KING.
An additional note: It's claimed that FM HD sounds better. In my opinion, it really doesn't.
But the difference people hear when listening to HD is a more natural sound--not because HD is more natural, but because less audio processing is used
I find most Seattle Am AND Fm stations to be WAY-overprocessed - even KING-FM often turns the string sections on a CD into a bit of a screech, for my taste.
I never could listen to "The Mountain" because of the lack of dynamic range for music that should sound a lot cleaner. Same for me with KIXI-AM, which distorts badly on the low end on every radio on which I've ever listen to it.
KOMO-FM is ridiculous, thinking that MORE BASS! LOUDER! improves FM coverage, as if it were amplitute modulation. It may stand out further on a crowded dial, but I'll guess TSL is lower than they'd expect, and the movie-theatre quality audio bombast is probably part of the reason.
I think even KUOW-FM has poor processing, and their poor transmitter location just makes it even worse, since probably 90% of their coverage (anywhere more than 10 miles from "Seattle's Univerisity District") is further distorted by severe multipath.
The high compression and lack of modulation range makes these stations sound as desperate and tacky as the oversized political campaign billboards you can enjoy all along I-5, from Seattle to Canada, for Mr Koster and his kin, blocking views and hogging the scenery of Washington State for six months and longer before every election.
In other words, being EXTREME doesn't buy you credibility, loyalty, or longevity. And the juvenile-sounding audio on many broadcast stations is yet another reason people with "ears" turn to other media when they want to do some serious music listening.
I never could listen to "The Mountain" because of the lack of dynamic range for music that should sound a lot cleaner. Same for me with KIXI-AM, which distorts badly on the low end on every radio on which I've ever listen to it.
KOMO-FM is ridiculous, thinking that MORE BASS! LOUDER! improves FM coverage, as if it were amplitute modulation. It may stand out further on a crowded dial, but I'll guess TSL is lower than they'd expect, and the movie-theatre quality audio bombast is probably part of the reason.
I think even KUOW-FM has poor processing, and their poor transmitter location just makes it even worse, since probably 90% of their coverage (anywhere more than 10 miles from "Seattle's Univerisity District") is further distorted by severe multipath.
The high compression and lack of modulation range makes these stations sound as desperate and tacky as the oversized political campaign billboards you can enjoy all along I-5, from Seattle to Canada, for Mr Koster and his kin, blocking views and hogging the scenery of Washington State for six months and longer before every election.
In other words, being EXTREME doesn't buy you credibility, loyalty, or longevity. And the juvenile-sounding audio on many broadcast stations is yet another reason people with "ears" turn to other media when they want to do some serious music listening.
multiplex said:
Holy Crap...is that thing still on the air? Has anyone actually taken a transmitter reading since 1978?
I always thought KPLU did a decent job with their sound.
Grounded Grid said:
Agreed. KPLU sounds FAR better than most commercial stations.
I remember how KNUA and KKNW (106.9) sounded, with no compression. Just AWESOME for their format. Same with KEZX-FM.
KING-FM actually wasn't always good. Today, they're fine, but in the early 2000's, they really sounded muffled...
Bong, you are spot on. KPLU (main analog and HD1) sound consistently great. KING-FM runs a very close second. KUOW is processed like a talk station. Pop back and forth when NPR is programming some music and check the difference between KPLU and KUOW, interesting. For AM, KIXI used to sound pretty good with their Harris MW50 and Optimod. Not sure what they are doing now but something changed a few years ago. No HF content at all. Sounds like a big fat roll-off above 4kHz. The little Christian station out of Kirkland used to sound pretty good too but I haven't given them a listen in a long time. I get nice AM bandwidth with my old Sony AM stereo SRF-100 radio.Bongwater said:
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