AM Radio

[MarioMania]

What is the status of AM Radio in the US??

I know most of the stuff on the AM band is useless..besides news/talk & sports

Music would not come back to AM, Well not music like on CHR Station's

The last great station on AM was the Big 610 KFRC

Bring back AM Stereo to every station

 

[michael hagerty]

What is the status of AM Radio in the US??

I know most of the stuff on the AM band is useless..besides news/talk & sports

Music would not come back to AM, Well not music like on CHR Station's

The last great station on AM was the Big 610 KFRC

Bring back AM Stereo to every station

Won't help. The audience is gone. Nothing will convince them that AM sounds as good as FM...because, frankly, it doesn't. Too much interference from too many sources.

And while KFRC was a very good oldies station, the majority of its listening came from its FM at 99.7. The AM's last good ratings were more than 20 years ago.

 

[Tom Wells]

Ever since the introduction of AM radios that can't be tuned, there's been this pervasive lie that
AM sounds worse than FM.

Preselected steps at 10 khz with narrow IF amps would give anyone that impression, but it IS a lie,
and not the truth. Delco Electronics was the worst of any company for perpetrating this crime.

There is no reason, frequency response-wise, that it should be possible to tell them apart.

The more you would argue that I am incorrect, the more I would suggest you have not encountered a
high fidelity AM radio.

The special sound of 150% positive modulation on AM is something I very much miss on the radio,
and I'd much rather have that "presence" than the glare of too much treble, chopped and clipped at 15 kc.

Those who think FM has the best sound there can be are much like the fly in the vinegar bottle who is convinced
it's the sweetest place in the world because it's never been anywhere else.

I can offer no explanation for the FCC having made no distinction between the very different nature of
RF interference potential created by sine-wave oscillators versus switching-mode square wave oscillators.
If part 15 rules for non-intentional radiators were enforced as written, you'd almost never hear
any of the rip-roaring buzzes that are heard on the dial. You'd hear an AM dial full of listenable signals.
Almost all the noise you hear is completely illlegal. We simply favor the rights of businesses
to steal the value of wireless communication to save the cost of a few parts in design and manufacture.
Some noise would always occur.

But to not plan to minimize radiated noise at EACH step is engineering madness, and certain to only get worse.

As digital power for television, etc, increases, those who like FM will see the same problems foisted upon
the FM analog reception. And soon "everyone" will know radio is just so old fashioned cuz it hardly works.

Then we can go full digital on radio and watch that not work very well, because we'll be so far down the noise
toilet by then that only the loudest shouting will be able to work anymore.

So hasten the day of everything from the internet and your $xxx zoomplanet data plan?

"Everyone" wants this new method of delivery.
Except radio.
Killing "radio" is very important to a lot of people.

Then we won't have to have the government pretend there could be such a thing that cannot be owned,
but must be shared and intelligently managed.

All wavelengths will be owned within districts and use rights will be exactly as in real estate and property rights.

But you will have the same thing happen to your radio as happened to your TV when cable took over.

It becomes a different thing. And you now pay for it.
And it still has commercials.

If we decide " actual property rights" exist, we cannot "permit" all available wavelength to not be rented or sold to the highest bidder.
It's all about the bottom line, right?

Should there be defined a section of bandwidth in Federal Law to not be eligible for sale or rent?
If it is not defined as held in some kind of trust, as surely as real estate, it will all be owned.

This is exactly what happened with laws regarding receiving satellite signals falling on your property.
Until the law changed it, you were free to figure out anything you wanted to do with something somebody else
delivered, carried, tossed, flung, hurled, or otherwise made available on your property.
Or they could dang well keep it the heck > off < .

Any action re: or divulgence of what you might hear/see was specifically already prohibited by law.
This wasn't good enough for the satellite companies, who sucessfully lobbied to have law
changed such that they actually OWN that wavelength upon your property,
and you ( that's the collective you) waive all claims to that wavelength/freq/bw,
unless you are paying for the service according to an agreement.

Such a notion of ANY public interest in defining some portion or slice of bandwidth open and
henceforth pre-disqulaified to become private property seems alarmist in the present,
but probably not too far down the road,
it will seem as quaint an idea as a village commons with actual animals grazing there.

 

[KeithE4]

Ever since the introduction of AM radios that can't be tuned, there's been this pervasive lie that
AM sounds worse than FM.

Preselected steps at 10 khz with narrow IF amps would give anyone that impression, but it IS a lie, and not the truth. Delco Electronics was the worst of any company for perpetrating this crime.

There is no reason, frequency response-wise, that it should be possible to tell them apart.

The more you would argue that I am incorrect, the more I would suggest you have not encountered a high fidelity AM radio.

The special sound of 150% positive modulation on AM is something I very much miss on the radio, and I'd much rather have that "presence" than the glare of too much treble, chopped and clipped at 15 kc.

Those who think FM has the best sound there can be are much like the fly in the vinegar bottle who is convinced it's the sweetest place in the world because it's never been anywhere else.

What you say is true, but it doesn't matter. AM can be made to sound great if the FCC would allow it, but you are one of the very few that care anymore. The listening public made its decision over 30 years ago. FM is "standard broadcasting," and AM is all but dead.

With talk and sports now moving to FM in greater numbers, those nails are being hammered into the AM coffin faster and faster. AM will be almost totally religion, non-Spanish language ethnic broadcasters, colon-blowers, and Part 15 hobbyists in another 10 years. I think the 50 kW blowtorches will still hang on, but most will have an FM simulcast. They'll have to in order to survive.

I can offer no explanation for the FCC having made no distinction between the very different nature of RF interference potential created by sine-wave oscillators versus switching-mode square wave oscillators. If part 15 rules for non-intentional radiators were enforced as written, you'd almost never hear any of the rip-roaring buzzes that are heard on the dial. You'd hear an AM dial full of listenable signals. Almost all the noise you hear is completely illlegal. We simply favor the rights of businesses to steal the value of wireless communication to save the cost of a few parts in design and manufacture. Some noise would always occur.

But to not plan to minimize radiated noise at EACH step is engineering madness, and certain to only get worse.

They can make all the noise-free light-dimmers, CFLs, and power supplies they want. Even if the AM dial sounds clear as a bell, the number of people listening to AM won't increase. It'll just sound better for the remaining 15% (and that number is dropping like a rock) who bother with AM.

 

[LibertyNT]

Sadly it is true.
AM can actually sound really darned good.
But when people quit caring about the band it went to hell.
A good receiver can make AM sound as clean and clear as FM,
plop in some AM Stereo and they're practically the same.

But noise makers, and el cheapo Radio's have all but destroyed the AM band

 

[KeithE4]

But noise makers, and el cheapo Radio's have all but destroyed the AM band

There have always been noise-makers. Summer static, TV horizontal sweep oscillators, noisy fluorescent lights, and the like have been a problem for 65 years (static, of course, since the beginning). There are just more noise making devices now.

Cheap radios? They've also been there since the beginning. From Great-grandpa's cat whisker to Major Armstrong's rushbox (that's "regenerative receiver" for those of you in Rio Linda. ;D ) to the cheap pocket radios of the '50s and '60s to the single-chip junk of today, there has always been crap available for the consumer.

Sorry, but what destroyed the AM band was the FM band and its relatively noise-free sound (no, it's not perfect either - no transmission mode is, analog or digital). Even if the audio is 20 Hz to 15 kHz on both an AM and FM station, the FM will sound better because 100 MHz is quieter than 1 MHz and FM is quieter than AM. Fewer propagation issues as well.

 

[LibertyNT]

No Doubt FM put a huge hurt on AM.

FM doesn't have Skywave issues,
doesn't have super directional signals
and isn't as subjective to Lightening Interference.

Something tells me, todays AM band is much more trashed than it used to be.

AM always had these problems, but I'm fairly certain they were not as bad back then as they are now.

 

[KeithE4]

No Doubt FM put a huge hurt on AM.

FM doesn't have Skywave issues, doesn't have super directional signals and isn't as subjective to Lightening Interference.

Outside of the occasional tropo ducting and E skip, the FM band is reliably line of sight. Not so with AM or shortwave, which are "owned" by the ionosphere. The ionosphere is considered a liability nowadays, where it was an asset decades ago.

Something tells me, todays AM band is much more trashed than it used to be.

AM always had these problems, but I'm fairly certain they were not as bad back then as they are now.

There are many times more noisemakers around now than even 30 years ago, with multiple PCs in every home, poorly designed light dimmers, and just about every device except a can opener now having a microprocessor in it.

But even if those were to go away and the AM spectrum was as clear as it was on a Kansas farm in 1935, it won't bring back the listeners. AM just cannot be made to sound as good as FM no matter what, except where the signal is extremely strong.

 

[FreddyE1977]

IBOC has done a whole lot of damage. It makes the audio sound like crap for the analog listener of the
station that is using it, and gums up the signals of other stations up and down the band.

So does all of the additional interference caused by computer equipment, big screen TV's, etc. There is a house in my
neighborhood where either they have a 140 inch plasma TV or they are splitting atoms in the basement. AM reception
in my car is totally useless for a block in any direction around them. There is also a hospital not far away that puts out
some type of interference that basically wipes out the AM band if you are in the vicinity.

The typical AM station is running either syndicated talk or some specialty format like oldies, adult standards, etc.
Some still have a following especially with older listeners. Personally I enjoy a number of syndicated talk shows,
aside from liking AM just because I'm a radio geek.

A big problem is with smaller stations out on the periphery that broker most or all of their programming.
90% of that time gets filled-up with quacks hawking various medical cures. Tune across the dial on a typical day
and you'll find that, religion, oldies/polkas/ethnic programming, and syndicated talk.

Locally KDKA is still hanging in with some locally-produced programming, but it is of very low quality.
And KQV still runs an all-news format during daylight hours....quite remarkable for a 5kW station in a market this size.

 

[musichead1029]

Basically summarizing the good observations here, AM can sound great with effort - the maintenance of and improvements to transmission chains, the availability of half-decent radios, and the costly mitigation of interference sources. FM already sounds great without expending the efforts and incurring the costs, so the efforts to improve AM reception are viewed as unlikely to produce commensurate listening increases to AM, hence they're not worth adopting. AM Stereo won't fix any of this. AM HD doesn't work and will likely be abandoned, enabling AMs to adopt a wider bandwidth footprint and improved analog sound, but this isn't likely to increase AM listenership though it may slow attrition slightly.

The FCC could legislate AM improvements, but with no one in the private sector willing to invest in the dying medium, this is moot.

As for newer spectrum technologies, the private sector, as an investor group, has the biggest stake in their success and the protection of the spectrum from interference. A private consortium could police the spectrum at least as well as the FCC and with less bureaucracy, politics and cost. The government could continue to require adherence to basic spectrum technical requirements and maintain emergency alert channel regulations. The results: less cost, more variety and better utilization of the spectrum. And maybe more innovative uses of the existing AM spectrum.

 

[KeithE4]

IBOC has done a whole lot of damage. It makes the audio sound like crap for the analog listener of the station that is using it, and gums up the signals of other stations up and down the band.

Yes, but don't tell that to CBS. :

So does all of the additional interference caused by computer equipment, big screen TV's, etc. There is a house in my neighborhood where either they have a 140 inch plasma TV or they are splitting atoms in the basement. AM reception in my car is totally useless for a block in any direction around them. There is also a hospital not far away that puts out
some type of interference that basically wipes out the AM band if you are in the vicinity.

The FCC will do nothing about Part 15-violating devices. There are too many of them (billions) to replace anyway.

The typical AM station is running either syndicated talk or some specialty format like oldies, adult standards, etc. Some still have a following especially with older listeners. Personally I enjoy a number of syndicated talk shows, aside from liking AM just because I'm a radio geek.

Radio geeks don't matter to advertisers. Neither do older listeners (and I fall into both categories). If a station can cater to old fartz like me and still make money, more power to them. But the problem is, they can't make enough money to satisfy the institutional investors that own most of the stock in almost all publicly-traded companies today. A private owner would have better luck, I would think, but costs would have to be kept to a minimum.

A big problem is with smaller stations out on the periphery that broker most or all of their programming. 90% of that time gets filled-up with quacks hawking various medical cures. Tune across the dial on a typical day and you'll find that, religion, oldies/polkas/ethnic programming, and syndicated talk.

They generate cash and do have a few listeners. A commercial radio station is a business. Businesses exist for exactly one and only one reason: To make money for the owner(s). If the station is a non-profit and/or non-commercial, it must at least break even in order to survive unless the station is run as a rich man's hobby (for example, KCDX in Phoenix). Even religious and NPR stations need donations to keep going.

Since AM radio is out of the mainstream with a couple hundred (out of 4000 or so) exceptions, most AM stations are not going to attract enough advertisers, and make a big enough profit to keep the stockholders happy. There are exceptions (the WGNs and KFIs of the world), but they're comparatively few and far between.

Locally KDKA is still hanging in with some locally-produced programming, but it is of very low quality. And KQV still runs an all-news format during daylight hours....quite remarkable for a 5kW station in a market this size.

The only thing I know about Pittsburgh radio is KDKA so I can't comment about specifics. But from what I've heard through the grapevine (and the HD board) is that KDKA and WBZ mutually interfere with each other due to the IBOC garbage, even in the outskirts of their own markets. How bad it is I have no idea, but given the fact that KNX's hash makes it to Phoenix (350 miles from LA) even when the analog signal has problems, I can believe it. I wonder if that is affecting KDKA's ratings, along with being on AM, blowtorch or not.

 

[FreddyE1977]

Great points all (although as that massive bulge of baby-boomers moves up in age there are some indications
they are rethinking their mantra about not wanting to sell to old fartz)

I don't blame small AM's for brokering time. You are correct it is a business and they need to make a profit
somehow. But the brokered programming is near impossible to listen to. At best they are produced by people
who know nothing about radio and are just awful in general. At worst they are ripping people off or dispensing
bad advice that could really harm someone.

I know a number of people who live within 60 miles of Pittsburgh who tell me they have great difficulty
receiving KDKA. Perhaps the IBOC from Boston is a factor on the outer fringes of that. I think they have
some other issues with poor grounding, etc. that are affecting them. I think mainly though the crummy
quality of their locally-produced programming is what is costing them ratings. (that and, as one former
KD employee once told me, "we lose ten listeners a day through the obituary column")