AM Stations With FM Translators Running The AMs at Low Power Without STAs

[cyberdad]

perfectly legal

Of course it is. (WSQR running one watt at night with three translators). And in most, if not all, scenarios, it's a good thing. I was just using it as an example of the new reality. A small town where the parent low powered AM exists primarily as an "afterthought" to one or more translator.

 

[MarioMania]

They don't want to be on the AM Band at all

 

[Groove1670]

The only reason they have an FM translator is because they are licensed to broadcast on the MW band (in AM). As such, they should try to keep the AM operating properly.
Otherwise, they should turn in both licenses, and apply for a LPFM, like everybody else.

In most small and in some cases medium markets the AM is worthless. It would be better just to go 500W daytime and use the translator. With that said, the operator needs to correct the issues with the FCC.

LPFMs are non commercial and cannot except advertising. only underwriting announcements.

 

[Groove1670]

It IS a violation of FCC rules. Unless they apply for an STA, under what ever specious conditions cited as the reason, yet likely to be granted, they could be fined or even revoked. They really need to carve out a small FM X-Band to relocate them as stations, and abandon the AM band. It's already too messed up to squeeze in meaningful allotments on the existing FM band, like Canada started years ago.

AM stations had the opportunity to apply for a revitalization translator. Serious operators did, others didn't. The latter will probably fade into the sunset. That process is happening now.

 

[Groove1670]

LPFMs are not commercial. They are severely limited in coverage. There is no comparison with any AM with a translator coverage.

Worth considering: during the period of huge decline in advertising during the Coronavirus, could some AMs that have translators be running lower power on the AM to save money, knowing that practically nobody listens to the AM any more.

In the long run, the FCC should consider allowing the AM transmitter to be turned off and grant permanent status to the translator as a new class of station.

With the COVID situation. The FCC will grant (rapidly) power reductions for FM stations. I've seen a few that have done STAs. I haven't seen any AMs, but I haven't viewed the daily digests in detail for awhile.

 

[Groove1670]

None of my local FM commercial stations are interfered with by translators. Not one. Now, perhaps some FM DXer can't pick up the odd fringe or non-local station from 150 miles away because of a translator, but that's a different story.

Agreed.

The interferece issue is a problem for engineers who are from the age of dinosaurs, and DXers who want to hear stations 75-100 miles away. DXing is dead! buy a smart speaker. I listened to Y100 in Miami when I was a kid 150 miles away because I was a geeky radio kid. No one else cared, and the average listener doen't sit around looking for distant stations.

New receivers handle stations with no issues spaced at 200KHZ on the FM dial.

A lot of get off my lawn comments here.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

"New receivers handle stations with no issues spaced at 200KHZ on the FM dial."

That is not completely true. There would be problems with two stations 200 kHz apart with the vast majority of existing receivers, and on all receivers within close proximity of 200 kHz spaced transmitters. Also, SEVERE INTERMODULATION (RITOIE). I agree that regulations could be set up to allow closely spaced stations 400 kHz apart. Years ago, this was widely allowed on NCE-FM, and there is still a convoluted way of doing it on NCE-FM in some cases. The old pre 1962 rules specified "suburban" station rules on 400 kHz and 600 kHz spaced stations. It's in the 1960 NAB Engineering Handbook as I recall.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Regarding translator eligibility, there was a pecking order of preference for Daytimers and Class IVs/Cs, in addition to many LPFMs, using up all the available frequencies in many areas. Thus the better the AM facility, the less likely it was to get a translator. Now many large group owners are in dire financial straits, and really don't care anymore, or don't have even enough money to install a translator, or it is not a priority. You can quote me on this, "RADIO ISN'T DEAD, BUT IT IS IN THE PROCESS OF BEING MURDERED".

Many LPFMs are not financially sustainable, and many are going off the air, and many are losing tower leases. Perhaps the FCC should limit LPFM preference in the future, and allow LPFMs to be sold to commercial companies for conversion to AM translators, or full power (whatever can be fit in, ERP and HAAT wise) stations. I happen to know that many LPFM frequencies could easily be used as such. Translators are MUCH LESS limited allotment wise than LPFMs. Perhaps they could even be a new class of station.

 

[semoochie]

With the COVID situation. The FCC will grant (rapidly) power reductions for FM stations. I've seen a few that have done STAs. I haven't seen any AMs, but I haven't viewed the daily digests in detail for awhile.

It's funny that you mention the Daily Digest. It's been much smaller lately, maybe one or two pages. About the only time that there's a lot in it is when there's a transfer of control of a large corporation.

 

[Groove1670]

"New receivers handle stations with no issues spaced at 200KHZ on the FM dial."

That is not completely true. There would be problems with two stations 200 kHz apart with the vast majority of existing receivers, and on all receivers within close proximity of 200 kHz spaced transmitters. Also, SEVERE INTERMODULATION (RITOIE). I agree that regulations could be set up to allow closely spaced stations 400 kHz apart. Years ago, this was widely allowed on NCE-FM, and there is still a convoluted way of doing it on NCE-FM in some cases. The old pre 1962 rules specified "suburban" station rules on 400 kHz and 600 kHz spaced stations. It's in the 1960 NAB Engineering Handbook as I recall.

Sorry ***correction*** 400khz not 200 a typo. There is a station in my market at 100.1, we are at 100.5 and one at 100.9 (translators) with no issues.

 

[Groove1670]

Regarding translator eligibility, there was a pecking order of preference for Daytimers and Class IVs/Cs, in addition to many LPFMs, using up all the available frequencies in many areas. Thus the better the AM facility, the less likely it was to get a translator. Now many large group owners are in dire financial straits, and really don't care anymore, or don't have even enough money to install a translator, or it is not a priority. You can quote me on this, "RADIO ISN'T DEAD, BUT IT IS IN THE PROCESS OF BEING MURDERED".

Many LPFMs are not financially sustainable, and many are going off the air, and many are losing tower leases. Perhaps the FCC should limit LPFM preference in the future, and allow LPFMs to be sold to commercial companies for conversion to AM translators, or full power (whatever can be fit in, ERP and HAAT wise) stations. I happen to know that many LPFM frequencies could easily be used as such. Translators are MUCH LESS limited allotment wise than LPFMs. Perhaps they could even be a new class of station.

Yes. I worked with many AMs that purchased translators (during the 250 mile move window) and took advantage of it, and there were opportunities after that (other windows). If a station wanted a translator, they had many options or chances.

Many of the facilities I worked with were very rural markets. For large markets (unless it was a very condensed metro) it made no sense to have a translator. A good example would be the Miami Market. It would take several translators to cover the population. A waste of time, money and effort. Atlanta on the other hand is not a bad market. It is tightly packed and has tall towers, and would be a small investment for large station owners.

 

[b-turner]

I'd somewhat disagree but depending on the market fully agree with you. In a market like Houston, hitting 20-25% of the market with a translator makes sense. Certain areas have high percentages of viable ethic groups and a few of the suburban areas still maintain a strong identity separate from Houston proper. Typically the AM has difficulty reaching the whole market anyway, so a translator with the AM adopting more of a partial market station makes some sense. I'd say it's somewhat like the metro LA or New York suburban station.

 

[Groove1670]

I'd somewhat disagree but depending on the market fully agree with you. In a market like Houston, hitting 20-25% of the market with a translator makes sense. Certain areas have high percentages of viable ethic groups and a few of the suburban areas still maintain a strong identity separate from Houston proper. Typically the AM has difficulty reaching the whole market anyway, so a translator with the AM adopting more of a partial market station makes some sense. I'd say it's somewhat like the metro LA or New York suburban station.

The question was why more of the larger players didn't jump on the translator bandwagon. For targeting certain locations in a metro and ratings are not important, it works.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The largest number of FM stations being interfered with by translators within their former de facto service areas (usually pretty close to the 45 dBu complaint contour) are Class As, Class B1s, and Class Bs in medium sized markets 40-65 miles from a large metropolitan area. The 400 kHz translators between the stations in the large metropolitan areas are often placed on 1000+ foot TV towers and skyscrapers. Many of these are put just below the TV and FM antennas on the tower. The translators are often around 900 feet HAAT (though HAAT is not an official FCC specification for translators, it's easy to figure out with the FCC website utility programs or private websites). They are CLOSE to the equivalent of 3 kW Class As in many cases. Those on an old UHF 1000+ HAAT TV station tower, they may actually equal or exceed the 1142 foot HAAT equivalent 3 kW/100 meter Class A with 250 watts. If you are in doubt, try using the FCC site utilities yourself. So we often have 45-50 mile spacings from cochannel Class As in adjacent markets. Remember that the required A to A cochannel spacing for 3 kW Class As was 65 miles.

Of course you don't have translator interference in large cities like Boston, they are Class Bs, and any cochannel translator would likely be a 250 watt translator on a relatively short AM tower or a 350 to 500 foot FM tower 60 or so miles away. You might have 400 kHz spaced translators which are really not problematic.

I tried to talk some small to medium market AM owners into applying for translators during the window, but they weren't interested. I did my own study and identified four or five frequencies that would work, one for each AM, EVEN ON THEIR AM TOWERS. In one case, two of those frequencies were soon occupied by LPFMs, which have now both lost their tower leases, and are on shaky financial grounds. The other translator frequencies were applied for and got decent translator CPs. One is owned by a large group owner and remains unbuilt. One went to a community 15-20 miles away. One was built and has a fantastic signal from 250 watts/300 feet.

 

[b-turner]

You are correct, in Houston there's a 99 watter so high in the sky it covers the metro. The tower lease isn't cheap but then again, compared to coverage, it's a bargain.

 

[kevtronics]

Yeah and? thats completely accurate. I spoke to WRNJ's engineer tonight and the STA filing is accurate/true.

you seem to like to take any slam you can against your local radio stations operating in a way you find wrong

I never said there was anything wrong with it. I noticed their AM signal has been drastically reduced in power and looked it up to see the reason why. Are you blaming me for just being an attentive listener?