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AM - Where are you going? Best formats for future

N1WVQ said:
So, if the record has hope then so does A.M. radio, BUT NOT AS IT EXISTS NOW. Not with programming that doesn't interest them. If it suits them, they will use whatever tools are available to them. So, if there's an A.M. station that broadcasts what they want they'll discover it & use it.

First of all, the problem with your premise is the phonograph record and the CD are deader than AM radio. So that's not a model to follow.

The problem is in the audience. Audience taste has really narrowed, and people are very intolerant of things they don't like. It's the "reality TV" approach, where people are ready and anxious to vote someone off, or send them home with nothing. That's the mindset of people listening to radio. So there is no one way of doing something, one kind of format, or one kind of live host that will suit the varied tastes of a population. All you can hope to do is please a portion of them. The bigger the group, the more successful you are. But it's all a smaller audience than it used to be, so there's less money around to pay them. Less money to invest in new ideas.

As for people discovering programming on AM, I see nothing in behavior patterns that leads me to believe anyone samples AM radio that way. First of all, people would need to have an AM radio. Then they'd have to turn it on. Two big hurdles. Then you'd have to get past the audio quality and signal quality issues. And any station that is experimenting in this way probably has no advertising budget to attract tune-in. So it's a long way to go. It's not like the old days, when you could just start a station and people would listen.
 
landtuna said:
DavidEduardo said:
The oldest boomers are not even 65... and the youngest still in their 40's. It will be decades before they are gone.

The youngest Boomers turn 50 this year.

The United States Census Bureau considers a baby boomer to be someone born during the demographic birth boom between 1946 and 1964. That would mean the youngerst boomer is 46 now.

The alternate definition is based on the term "baby boom generation" and the 20-year duration of a generation, which makes the youngest boomer 44 now.

Either is statistically accurate. 1964 marks the downtrend of birthrates, while 1966 marks the leveling off following the downtrend by children born of non-foreign born parents.
 
DavidEduardo said:
landtuna said:
DavidEduardo said:
The oldest boomers are not even 65... and the youngest still in their 40's. It will be decades before they are gone.

The youngest Boomers turn 50 this year.

The United States Census Bureau considers a baby boomer to be someone born during the demographic birth boom between 1946 and 1964. That would mean the youngerst boomer is 46 now.

The alternate definition is based on the term "baby boom generation" and the 20-year duration of a generation, which makes the youngest boomer 44 now.

Either is statistically accurate. 1964 marks the downtrend of birthrates, while 1966 marks the leveling off following the downtrend by children born of non-foreign born parents.

I have always read the common Boomer range being 1946-1960.

And BTW, a formal "generation" is 30 years, not 20 (although 25 is probably more realistic given human reproductive age).
 
TheBigA said:
First of all, the problem with your premise is the phonograph record and the CD are deader than AM radio.

If you are talking about pre-recorded CD's then I might agree based upon industry reports but it seems to be the content rather than the media that is the issue.

There is still no media on the common market that is as versatile as the CD. I use my CD burner frequently to make custom music CD's for my cars and to send to friends and family. I still have a vinyl collection (and the phonograph to play them) although they have all been recorded to CD and the original LP's carefully stored. I think the death of the CD as raw media is greatly exaggerated.

For the record though I virtually never listen to the phonograph (since everything is on CD) and I never listen to AM. If I want to listen to static and fade I'll fire up one of the SW receivers.
 
landtuna said:
And BTW, a formal "generation" is 30 years, not 20 (although 25 is probably more realistic given human reproductive age).

Then that would make the "Boomer Generation" go through 1976. And the youngest boomer would be in their 30's.
 
landtuna said:
There is still no media on the common market that is as versatile as the CD.

My medium of choice is the 4GB USB flash drive. It can hold more than 2 CDs of .wav quality music, and is less than 2 inches long. I slip it in my pants pocket, or attach it to my key ring. I can play it with any device that has a USB port, which is just about anything these days. But I'm looking forward to cloud drives, where there is no physical medium, and it all sits on a server that I access when I want. Currently, that role is being played by my own personal ftp site, which is how I send or receive music files from place to place.
 
TheBigA said:
landtuna said:
There is still no media on the common market that is as versatile as the CD.

My medium of choice is the 4GB USB flash drive. It can hold more than 2 CDs of .wav quality music, and is less than 2 inches long. I slip it in my pants pocket, or attach it to my key ring. I can play it with any device that has a USB port, which is just about anything these days. But I'm looking forward to cloud drives, where there is no physical medium, and it all sits on a server that I access when I want. Currently, that role is being played by my own personal ftp site, which is how I send or receive music files from place to place.

I too like USB flash drives... rather than put a stand-alone CD player in any of my old cars, I've been waiting for a stand-alone
USB drive player. Should be small, have a few buttons...play, pause, stop, previous track, next track, maybe FF and REW...with a line output.
I admit I haven't searched for one yet, I've sort of been waiting for the market to create and advertise one.

CDs sound good enough, but in many ways are too fragile for portable use.
One scratch and that's all, folks Cassettes were far more durable.
 
Tom Wells said:
CDs sound good enough, but in many ways are too fragile for portable use.
One scratch and that's all, folks Cassettes were far more durable.

Or just hit a good sized pothole. It's like having the needle bounce across the vinyl.
 
This links to a 2009 article about records: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1702369,00.html

Trying to keep the A.M. band from dying is not a fool's errand. If it were, radio would have gone away 50 years ago after T.V. came along but it evolved, changed. Stations need to use things like social networking to increase awareness. If there's no more dial tuning (I'm not so certain of that) then there's social networking.

As for the audio quality, yes, most radios made now SUCK. That still doesn't mean the stations shouldn't try & personally I dislike digital artifacting more than a static crash. MP3s on ear buds don't yield high fidelity listening either. Plus throw in most music recorded by the bigs are processed to the hilt & the result isn't a sonic masterpiece. Additionally you have bands in the "lo-fi" & "no-fi" genres.

You forgot Hurdle #3: putting something worthwhile on the band in the first place. I grew up in Providence. There have been various music stations audible in Providence on & off for many years. When I went to college in Jacksonville, the A.M. band there (as well as most of the N.C.E. F.M. subband) were cluttered with religious stations. Nothing of interest for me like in Providence. So which market you're in is a factor too.

F.M. stations in the late '60s were experimental too. There was only the sister A.M. (maybe a T.V. & in rare cases, a newspaper) to help keep the company afloat over the F.M. station's lack of audience & revenue. What I'm saying is that history teaches us that it CAN happen. Those F.M.s were programmed by people in the target audience, not AT them like today. Granted, I'm 31 years old but am recalling what I've read about the rise of F.M. radio.

No, it's not like the old days where a station was enough for people to listen but then again there was a time when a test pattern on a T.V. would get an audience. In today's world, well, it might be one of the more interesting things on T.V. but I digress. ;) I would hope that with so many choices available that the best would arise.

Yes, it is a long way to go but it could also be the best ride of my life & anyone else's who decides to take a chance!
 
DavidEduardo said:
landtuna said:
And BTW, a formal "generation" is 30 years, not 20 (although 25 is probably more realistic given human reproductive age).

Then that would make the "Boomer Generation" go through 1976. And the youngest boomer would be in their 30's.

Just for grins I googled "baby boomer" after replying to your post and found a number of different definitions. Most do reference the Census Bureau's ending year of 1964 (the last year of increasing birth rate) but a number stop at '60. In any event, the "baby boomer" generation isn't actually a human generation which has historically been the span of time between birth and the onset of children (which at one time was closer to 30 years but recently has been falling).

I'll accept the 1964 date as the ending date of the Baby Boomer Generation....grudgingly. ;D
 
N1WVQ said:
If it suits them, they will use whatever tools are available to them. So, if there's an A.M. station that broadcasts what they want they'll discover it & use it. Same with F.M., but these stations in a closet with no presence they can touch, hold, see, hear will be useless to them. I'm talking personalities, promotion & yes the dreaded ACTUALLY PLAYING THEIR REQUESTS & not the usual "it's coming up in a little while" & never actually playing it!

A classic example of how your theory doesn't hold up in reality is Radio Disney. RD is mainly on AM stations in several major markets, backed by the music, marketing and promotion arm of the Mouse. They have personalities, prizes, and moreover; access to some of the hottest pop acts that cater to their target demo. All of this promotional and music mite, yet over the years I've not seen any measurable audience within their target demographic. In essence, they've built exactly what you mentioned, yet nobody has showed up.
 
N1WVQ said:
F.M. stations in the late '60s were experimental too.

FM had not been experimental since the early 40's, before moving to the current band right after W.W. II. The pages of Broadcasting in '46 were filled with ads for FM equipment... transmitters, antenna systems, etc... and none were experimental.

There was only the sister A.M. (maybe a T.V. & in rare cases, a newspaper) to help keep the company afloat over the F.M. station's lack of audience & revenue.

Tell that to Jerry Lee in Philadelphia or Robert Conrad in Cleveland or Peter Taylor who was with Kaiser in SF and Boston or Sol Levine in LA or José Acosta in San Juan... and lots of others. An FM I owned, part of a significant cluster, made more money than all but one of the AMs and was #2 in upper income in the ratings... well before the decade ended.

There were plenty of independent FMs in the 60's and while many did not make money or just subsisted, plenty were viable when run right. And sure, some were simulcasts of an AM, but that ended in '67.

What I'm saying is that history teaches us that it CAN happen. Those F.M.s were programmed by people in the target audience, not AT them like today.

My first FM was targeted at 35 and over, and I was 20 when it went on the air. I had no trouble programming for a particular target just like Walt Disney had no trouble entertaining kids.

Granted, I'm 31 years old but am recalling what I've read about the rise of F.M. radio.

You might want to do a bit more reading.
 
I think you might be misunderstanding 'experimental'. I think it may have been intended as defining programming.

In the late 1950s and early 60s, lots of FM stations simply provided background music for stores and offices. When rock came to FM is was pretty much experimental.

Lots of FM stations DID NOT make money. I'd venture to say most operated at a loss or breakeven. Sure, when KXTR went fulltime in Kansas City, I think it was morning man, Tom Green, that said they were doing really well because they were up to about 20 commercials a day. My Dad bought spots on WDAF FM for $3 each in 1968. I bet that rate was about 7% of WDAF's AM rate at the time.

I saw one small market station that used a small room with a turntable, microphone and homemade mixer. The AM jock would play album sides on the FM and when changing records, would read any commercials. An album might skip for quite a few minutes without a call to the station. Few had FM radios back then...mostly in the living room as a Hi Fi System of turntable, AM/FM and maybe an 8-track in later years.
 
bturner said:
I think you might be misunderstanding 'experimental'. I think it may have been intended as defining programming.

You're probably right. In that case, I take exception for different reasons. ;)

In the late 1950s and early 60s, lots of FM stations simply provided background music for stores and offices.

SCA services kept many an FM alive. Some were operated by the stations, others were leased to branded services.

When rock came to FM is was pretty much experimental.

When the FCC mandated the end of simulcasting, owners who all along didn't want to give up the licences for fear that they might be of value sometime, tossed on nearly anything that wouldn't compete with the AM. Some duplicated the classical or instrumental formats of the independents, others played hard rock or "golden oldies" and, oddly, many caught on... quite by accident in some cases.

Those formats that were designed not to cannibalize the big AMs actually attracted audiences that were unimpressed by the very broad nature of MOR, Top 40 and the few other principal formats of the 60's. So the programming was accidental as opposed to experimental.

The need to independently program FMs under common AM ownership was viewed as an unwanted expense, so the opportunity was seized by a few to syndicate by tape a number of formats, including the earliest gold based AC (Drake-Chennault's "Hit Parade") and Beautiful Music (Shulke's SRP and others), to keep costs down. These efforts, often an improvement over home-grown FM efforts by the independents, also worked better than expected.

A few operators who had AMs with daytime or deficient signals actually improved the FM facility to fill in the gaps (WPGC was a nice early example) and became visionaries.

But these were not experiments.. they were reactions of owners, forced to create new programming, who wanted to do something that did not ding the AMs and was cheap.

Lots of FM stations DID NOT make money.

There we agree. But the independents, to stay on the air, were making a limited but adequate income. While in the period between 1948 and 1958, the total number of FMs went from near 1100 to under 700, from 1958 to the time of the simulcast prohibition the number doubled.

The ones that were a wash were the simulcast stations... a power bill, some tubes... but no benefit except to keep the license away from someone else.

I'd venture to say most operated at a loss or breakeven.

None were fabulously profitable, but there were plenty of examples of successful FMs on a more limited scale.

Sure, when KXTR went fulltime in Kansas City, I think it was morning man, Tom Green, that said they were doing really well because they were up to about 20 commercials a day. My Dad bought spots on WDAF FM for $3 each in 1968. I bet that rate was about 7% of WDAF's AM rate at the time.

The FM I worked at in 1960 could do logs months in advance, as there were no spots. But, like your WDAF FM, it was the sister station to a very successful AM. It was such a stepchild that it only operated 5 PM to 11 PM, Monday to Saturday until the FCC required more hours! There is no way that an FM could be successful that way, so in many cases there was no effort and no results.

I saw one small market station that used a small room with a turntable, microphone and homemade mixer. The AM jock would play album sides on the FM and when changing records, would read any commercials. An album might skip for quite a few minutes without a call to the station.

Another version of the "no effort - no gain" syndrome.

Few had FM radios back then...

I had a nifty AM FM portable in '59 that was not very expensive... while not found everywhere, there were many more FM radios than was thought. The FCC's 1967 action was a catalyst of sorts, and within a few years, FMs were climbing into the top positions in the ratings in many if not all the major markets.
 
David you are right. If I recall, the music licensing thing was not as cut and dry as it is today. The option for a taped format where all that music licensing was settled kept operators out of hot water and provided a cost effective way to run an FM. One ended up with a quality format that could attract listeners.

It might just be me, but it seems less time was spent in front of the TV 40 to 50 years back. Adults had hobbies and interacted more with neighbors and friends. When my Dad was in his wood shop and when my Mom was sewing or trying out a new recipe or when either was reading books or magazines, the FM radio was going. When they played bridge with neighbors, the FM radio was on in the background.

There were some great concepts out there. Growing up in Kansas City and Dallas, I remember KCJC dropping its more uptempo beautiful music format (the 4 vocals an hour were more like Sinatra and Dionne Warwick) and going "Progressive Rock" while the AM raked in the bucks with the Top 30, 20-20 News and Boss Radio to counter WHB's legendary Top 40 status.

I listened to KFAD in Arlington (Dallas Ft. Worth) quite a bit. I recall they were Top 50 in the morning, Progressive Rock in the afternoon and supposedly jazz 6pm to 6am (but some progressive rock seemed to get slipped in here and there). I was more of a Top 40 kid then and liked KFAD because they'd do a rip and read 5 minute newscast and then "pay the bills" by reading a commercial and then 54 minutes of music.

My parents preferred KXXK "Music for Groovy Grown-Ups" while I was tuned to KFAD, KXOL, KLIF and KFJZ. This was 1969. While not a big fan of the music, I loved the format and the concept.

I feel like radio has become way too expensive to obtain (I'm talking ownership) to ever take a chance. About the only folks who can afford it bought a losing station and has some dollars to throw at it. I've found experimentation comes from plans that are not so terribly detailed. Seems most formats now are pure concept down to every detail, backed up with research and success stories.
 
...in the period between 1948 and 1958, the total number of FMs went from near 1100 to under 700...

David, I'm trying to picture this... It's odd to me to think of an FM radio station impressing their audience with 78 RPM records.

I'm sure the lack of static was nice, but if it was fidelity you were looking for, a good wideband AM radio was as accessible as a good FM radio...maybe more... wasn't it?

What was the pull of FM at that point? Or, is that part of why FM station numbers dropped: it sounded a bit like a solution looking for a problem?

Obviously the rapid increase in hi-fidelity capabilities (including stereo in the late 50s) would have put FM on the fast track. Before that, what was the draw?
 
NightAire said:
...in the period between 1948 and 1958, the total number of FMs went from near 1100 to under 700...

David, I'm trying to picture this... It's odd to me to think of an FM radio station impressing their audience with 78 RPM records.

I think you will find that the LP (Microgroove Record) was introduced in 1948 by CBS. Some of the recordings made in the 1950's were (and still are) spectacular sounding.
 
NightAire said:
...in the period between 1948 and 1958, the total number of FMs went from near 1100 to under 700...

David, I'm trying to picture this... It's odd to me to think of an FM radio station impressing their audience with 78 RPM records.

There was plenty of vinyl by the early to mid-50's, and that did not halt the decline in FM stations. The fact is, up until the AFM /Petrillo issues were reduced early in that decade, stations in major markets (and the AFM considered Chatanooga a major market) had do do a large amount of live programming of music with bands, singers, pianists, etc. Obviously, that sounded a lot better on FM.

Obviously the rapid increase in hi-fidelity capabilities (including stereo in the late 50s) would have put FM on the fast track. Before that, what was the draw?

FM stereo was not authorized until 1961, and it took 3 years to get to 100 stereo stations. Stereo was not the draw; as the simulcast elimination of 1967 proved, it was content.
 
Live performances! OK, that makes more sense to me. Fascinating that stereo didn't have that big of an impact.

Side question: does anybody have any airchecks of FM stations from the late 40s / early 50s? I'd be fascinated to hear what they were doing!
 
I would love to hear some of the FMs from the 1960s. There were so many FMs that were here today and gone tomorrow at that time.

For me, I was a kid who was listening to Top 40, so tuning in a Beautiful Music FM for any length of time was too boring to me and I had nothing to record an aircheck with.

My parents listened to the Beautiful Music stations at the time (the TV went off and Hi Fi went on for dinner, for example). I'd love to hear how they sounded, the commercial load, formatics and such.

Anybody have any airchecks from those pre-cassette days (maybe recorded on reel to reel with a trusty Wollensak)

Bill
 
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