AMization of FM

[K6JHU]

CGC Communicator #1150 has a short piece in the middle of the post about noise levels from LED's and other devices starting to creep up into the FM band. That is why the piece is called the AMization of FM.

Link is: http://www.earthsignals.com/press/

 

[spunker88]

I didn't think LEDs produced much noise, they have been used in radios for years. It sounds more like the power supply would be the issue.

Personally I've been noticing wifi routers give off a lot of noise in the FM band. I don't get how something that is designed to put out a narrow 2.4Ghz signal is producing noise all the way down in the 88-108mhz band and possibly elsewhere.

 

[Tom Wells]

I didn't think LEDs produced much noise, they have been used in radios for years. It sounds more like the power supply would be the issue.

Personally I've been noticing wifi routers give off a lot of noise in the FM band. I don't get how something that is designed to put out a narrow 2.4Ghz signal is producing noise all the way down in the 88-108mhz band and possibly elsewhere.

Data rates used cause modulation byproducts of the square waves show up at many points and far ouside than the "intended frequency."

It is an immutable fact of physics.

If only them square waves could be rounded off just a wee bit, interference would decrease.

 

[TheBigA]

Another reason for OTA radio to move to the web.

 

[TomT]

LED traffic lights often use switching supplies, which can create a lot of buzz that radiates a short distance.

Move OTA to the web? Yeah, right. Pay 75% of your revenue out in performance rights. Then the power fails...no internet.

We were on the air from the time the "derecho" hit on June 29th with emergency information.
Had no internet--cable or DSL, until three days later. Of course, we were on generator, unlike many folks who didn't get any power for a week.

 

[northwoods]

Another reason for OTA radio to move to the web.

I agree. It probably costs less to stream online than to power up and maintain the towers. Also, with OTA, you are limited to a certain geographical area (unless you are a 50K clear channel AM blowtorch). Where if you are on the web, the listening distance is limitless.

 

[davideduardo]

I agree. It probably costs less to stream online than to power up and maintain the towers. Also, with OTA, you are limited to a certain geographical area (unless you are a 50K clear channel AM blowtorch). Where if you are on the web, the listening distance is limitless.

To the contrary, unless you have no listeners, it costs infinitely more to stream than to transmit via a terrestrial transmitter because the digital rights increase with every connection, while a transmitter is a single fixed cost.

Second, and until the way advertising is bought changes, ad sales are for the local metro. A national / international audience is of no interest to a Ford dealer in Chandler, AZ. So, a stream has to be able to detect location and insert the proper spots, meaning a considerable investment in technology and... the big one... local salespeople in every significant market.

If you have an AM, even a big on, I feel sorry for you. But, were that the case, the coverage outside the local metro is virtually useless for sales... the only real advantage of power is in overcoming man-made noise and penetrating buildings and homes with a good signal.

Terrestrial transmitters will be needed for some time still... as Internet access and data accounts are not had by all the population in every place they go. Until then, a combination of all of the best delivery methods is required.

 

[TomZ]

This thread is going sideways; but the majority of local listeners want to learn/hear about local events/sales.

I'm not sure whether weather will weather the storms.

 

[K6JHU]

What will be interesting is the result of the high power IBOC test (whenever and wherever that is held). Can the digital signal ovecome the noise made by the other digital noise generators.

Something (and there are several proposals floating around) will have to be done before the AM band becomes totally unusable. Some operators are already 'voting withn their feet' by moving to FM translators. And in some cases, there are stations are just going silent.

 

[northwoods]

I agree. It probably costs less to stream online than to power up and maintain the towers. Also, with OTA, you are limited to a certain geographical area (unless you are a 50K clear channel AM blowtorch). Where if you are on the web, the listening distance is limitless.

To the contrary, unless you have no listeners, it costs infinitely more to stream than to transmit via a terrestrial transmitter because the digital rights increase with every connection, while a transmitter is a single fixed cost.

Second, and until the way advertising is bought changes, ad sales are for the local metro. A national / international audience is of no interest to a Ford dealer in Chandler, AZ. So, a stream has to be able to detect location and insert the proper spots, meaning a considerable investment in technology and... the big one... local salespeople in every significant market.

If you have an AM, even a big on, I feel sorry for you. But, were that the case, the coverage outside the local metro is virtually useless for sales... the only real advantage of power is in overcoming man-made noise and penetrating buildings and homes with a good signal.

Terrestrial transmitters will be needed for some time still... as Internet access and data accounts are not had by all the population in every place they go. Until then, a combination of all of the best delivery methods is required.

I may be looking at this from a listener standpoint, but I have a plethora of news/talk stations from across the country (as well as a handful or so in Canada, 1 each in the UK, Ireland, and Guam, and a handful in Australia), that I listen to when the opportunity avails. Right now I am listening to a news/talks station online in Louisville,KY that I wouln't be able to listen to OTA.

With regard to advertising, David is partly right. With regard to the Ford dealer in Chandler,AZ not interested in a national/international audience, keep in mind there are probably many snowbirds who spend their winters in Chandler,AZ or the surrouning area who spend their summers up North who could be listening to a certain radio station in that area of AZ online or could be reading a newspaper online from that area if they happen to place banner ad on that newspaper's website. On a stream detecting location and inserting ad spots, I can't specifically say whether the techology is available yet (I can say that those who do stream have public service announcements in place of the local ads being broadcast OTA), but it probably isn't too far behind. I'm not a marketing (despite having one semester of it 29 years ago) or advertising expert, so I'm not going to pontificate on whether local salespeople are needed in every market, although there could be a market consisting of independent freelance salespeople who could work on a commission/fee/contingency basis.

I also didn't mention in my last post with regard to AM stations on how much land is needed for the towers. Internet streams don't require a lot of land.

 

[northwoods]

This thread is going sideways; but the majority of local listeners want to learn/hear about local events/sales.

I'm not sure whether weather will weather the storms.

Tom, I live in a city of about 8400 that has 5 (this in not a typo) radio stations (Country, Classic Rock, and Hot AC on the FM band and Sports Talk and community and brokered Talk on the AM band) . They do not stream and I don't listen to them since I don't care for their formats. As for our newspaper, it only comes out once a week and is already old news when we get it.

 

[davideduardo]

With regard to advertising, David is partly right. With regard to the Ford dealer in Chandler,AZ not interested in a national/international audience, keep in mind there are probably many snowbirds who spend their winters in Chandler,AZ or the surrouning area who spend their summers up North who could be listening to a certain radio station in that area of AZ online or could be reading a newspaper online from that area if they happen to place banner ad on that newspaper's website.

A stream of one station in one format appealing to any significant group of temporary visitors or residents in a particular market is a needle in a haystack proposition and can not possibly be economically viable. Car dealer ads are nearly POS ads (Point of Sale) and engineered for immediate response, not future reference. There is zero money there.

On a stream detecting location and inserting ad spots, I can't specifically say whether the techology is available yet

It is, although people logging on via certain ISPs can spoof the system or fail to identify the listening location.

[/quote](I can say that those who do stream have public service announcements in place of the local ads being broadcast OTA), but it probably isn't too far behind.[/quote]

Those fill ads are inserted because stations can't run most agency spots on their web stream due to a client / agency "no streaming" dictate... in other words, the larger advertisers prohibit the streaming of their ads.

I'm not a marketing or advertising expert, so I'm not going to pontificate on whether local salespeople are needed in every market,

You can't sell local ads without local sellers. The prime example is Pandora, which is opening local sales offices in all major markets.

I also didn't mention in my last post with regard to AM stations on how much land is needed for the towers. Internet streams don't require a lot of land.

The cost for digital royalties for comparable numbers of listeners makes the land look like it were free.

Example: an important LA radio station might cume 2 to 3 million, with as many as 100,000 persons listening at any one time. If it is a 50 kw AM, the monthly electrical is around $10 k, and a 20 kw FM might be $5 k, including A/C and tower lights, etc. A single morning talent is going to make much more a month than the utilities. The station's ASCAP and BMI is going to be way more than utilities... the GM or PD will make much more individually.

Land, unless rented, is a one time cost except for yearly property tax. Not a huge expense for any significant player. Power and land are going to be less than 1% of costs for most big LA stations.

Pandora pays out about half of its income in digital fees.

There is no comparison on a cost basis; copyright fees are the killer for streaming profitability right now and the business model for the future requires a change in the way fees are calculated.

 

[K6JHU]

Yet another issue with RF noise (this time in the other direction). See the topic on the engineering board - "Ethernet and AM transmitter near by".

 

[northwoods]

With regard to advertising, David is partly right. With regard to the Ford dealer in Chandler,AZ not interested in a national/international audience, keep in mind there are probably many snowbirds who spend their winters in Chandler,AZ or the surrouning area who spend their summers up North who could be listening to a certain radio station in that area of AZ online or could be reading a newspaper online from that area if they happen to place banner ad on that newspaper's website.

A stream of one station in one format appealing to any significant group of temporary visitors or residents in a particular market is a needle in a haystack proposition and can not possibly be economically viable. Car dealer ads are nearly POS ads (Point of Sale) and engineered for immediate response, not future reference. There is zero money there.

On a stream detecting location and inserting ad spots, I can't specifically say whether the techology is available yet

It is, although people logging on via certain ISPs can spoof the system or fail to identify the listening location.

(I can say that those who do stream have public service announcements in place of the local ads being broadcast OTA), but it probably isn't too far behind.[/quote]

Those fill ads are inserted because stations can't run most agency spots on their web stream due to a client / agency "no streaming" dictate... in other words, the larger advertisers prohibit the streaming of their ads.

I'm not a marketing or advertising expert, so I'm not going to pontificate on whether local salespeople are needed in every market,

You can't sell local ads without local sellers. The prime example is Pandora, which is opening local sales offices in all major markets.

I also didn't mention in my last post with regard to AM stations on how much land is needed for the towers. Internet streams don't require a lot of land.

The cost for digital royalties for comparable numbers of listeners makes the land look like it were free.

Example: an important LA radio station might cume 2 to 3 million, with as many as 100,000 persons listening at any one time. If it is a 50 kw AM, the monthly electrical is around $10 k, and a 20 kw FM might be $5 k, including A/C and tower lights, etc. A single morning talent is going to make much more a month than the utilities. The station's ASCAP and BMI is going to be way more than utilities... the GM or PD will make much more individually.

Land, unless rented, is a one time cost except for yearly property tax. Not a huge expense for any significant player. Power and land are going to be less than 1% of costs for most big LA stations.

Pandora pays out about half of its income in digital fees.

There is no comparison on a cost basis; copyright fees are the killer for streaming profitability right now and the business model for the future requires a change in the way fees are calculated.
[/quote]

Two points I wanted to make that our friend David brought up. First was in regard to Pandora having local sales offices in all major markets. The key word(s) here are "major markets". I live in small town rural America, where we probably aren't even a blip on the radar screen.

The second point would be on the land issue. True, unless it is rented it is a one time cost except for the property tax. But if the fair market value of that land where the towers sit becomes valuable to a developer or if the property tax on the land becomes too expensive, a station owner would be fool not to take the money and run.

 

[davideduardo]

Two points I wanted to make that our friend David brought up. First was in regard to Pandora having local sales offices in all major markets. The key word(s) here are "major markets". I live in small town rural America, where we probably aren't even a blip on the radar screen.

You've succeeded in creating a vicious circle!

And an intriguing question.

A small market station is not going to have a national sales effort, even with strong web presence, because 95% of radio's revenues are for OTA commercials and a rep firm will not take a small-market station whose only sales claim is a national stream.

So the local station is going to be concerned, if at all, by the creation of a web tie in with the local OTA service and they won't have any AFTRA / Agency "no stream" dictates as they won't sell any AFTRA spots.

This is the same reason why NPR stations are counted by Arbitron as simulcasts and the web numbers folded into the on-air numbers... a major disadvantage for commercial stations in rated markets.

The second point would be on the land issue. True, unless it is rented it is a one time cost except for the property tax. But if the fair market value of that land where the towers sit becomes valuable to a developer or if the property tax on the land becomes too expensive, a station owner would be fool not to take the money and run.

In the case of FMs, this would be an uncommon case. Were an FM tower to be on a valuable piece of real estate, generally an alternate site is available as FMs are often on shared towers, hilltop dedicated communications sites, building tops, etc.

That leaves AMs. In the case of AMs that are viable (less than 200 in all the top 100 markets) sites are worth much less than the station and its revenue and, at least in the cases among viable stations I know, the land is owned or shared with land owned with another licensee.

In a few cases, like KHJ in LA in recent months, a development of the leased site simply made the station find another AM site on which it could be diplexed. LA has several diplexed AM sites, so business goes on as usual.

In the case of station sites that are worth more than an underperforming AM, the AM had simply become close to valueless for reasons that don't include land values... such as the decline in AM share, the lack of use of AMs by younger demos, the lack of full time or full market coverage by most rated market AMs... and they likely wouldn't exist for long, real estate issues or not.

 

[northwoods]

Two points I wanted to make that our friend David brought up. First was in regard to Pandora having local sales offices in all major markets. The key word(s) here are "major markets". I live in small town rural America, where we probably aren't even a blip on the radar screen.

You've succeeded in creating a vicious circle!

And an intriguing question.

A small market station is not going to have a national sales effort, even with strong web presence, because 95% of radio's revenues are for OTA commercials and a rep firm will not take a small-market station whose only sales claim is a national stream.

So the local station is going to be concerned, if at all, by the creation of a web tie in with the local OTA service and they won't have any AFTRA / Agency "no stream" dictates as they won't sell any AFTRA spots.

This is the same reason why NPR stations are counted by Arbitron as simulcasts and the web numbers folded into the on-air numbers... a major disadvantage for commercial stations in rated markets.

The second point would be on the land issue. True, unless it is rented it is a one time cost except for the property tax. But if the fair market value of that land where the towers sit becomes valuable to a developer or if the property tax on the land becomes too expensive, a station owner would be fool not to take the money and run.

In the case of FMs, this would be an uncommon case. Were an FM tower to be on a valuable piece of real estate, generally an alternate site is available as FMs are often on shared towers, hilltop dedicated communications sites, building tops, etc.

That leaves AMs. In the case of AMs that are viable (less than 200 in all the top 100 markets) sites are worth much less than the station and its revenue and, at least in the cases among viable stations I know, the land is owned or shared with land owned with another licensee.

In a few cases, like KHJ in LA in recent months, a development of the leased site simply made the station find another AM site on which it could be diplexed. LA has several diplexed AM sites, so business goes on as usual.

In the case of station sites that are worth more than an underperforming AM, the AM had simply become close to valueless for reasons that don't include land values... such as the decline in AM share, the lack of use of AMs by younger demos, the lack of full time or full market coverage by most rated market AMs... and they likely wouldn't exist for long, real estate issues or not.

Very astute observations that David made. I think I'm out of ammo on this topic. I'll still stay with internet radio for my primary music choice since it cannot be found on OTA on a continuous basis (at least in my area anyways), as well as for the numerous news/talk stations that I listen to that I can only hear if they are streamed online. Local OTA just doesn't cut it for me.

 

[secondchoice]

Merlin's failure in NYC is understandable but why hasn't ESPN's FM LMA in NYC generated a big ratings "bounce"? If no one under 50 listens to AM (which a lot of rating numbers and studies support) how come ESPN which is now exposed to the less than 50 in NYC has not taken off? IMHO ESPN is good content.

 

[GeneSavage]

QUESTION: If you have to have advertising reps in all the major markets, how do ABC / NBC / CBS / Fox and all the cable channels sell their national avails?

 

[PTBoardOp94]

QUESTION: If you have to have advertising reps in all the major markets, how do ABC / NBC / CBS / Fox and all the cable channels sell their national avails?

You've misunderstood. TV is sold differently than radio because there aren't major networks with shared national advertising in radio.

When national companies (Home Depot, Geico, Safelite) want to buy radio, they usually buy a national spot with Dial Global or one of the other syndicators who offers these services.

These same companies' ads end up on the streaming services as well.

But most of the revenue from ads in traditional radio comes from local or regional businesses. The story is that the streamers want to get some of that regional money.

 

[davideduardo]

You've misunderstood. TV is sold differently than radio because there aren't major networks with shared national advertising in radio.

Sure there are. It's just that most of the radio networks are sales nets, often called "unwired networks." These can take several forms.

First, large broadcast companies sell all or groups of their own stations as a "network buy." You could buy, at one rate, all the Clear Channel contemporary stations or all the Univision Regional Mexican stations.

Then, there are program syndicators, such as Premiere. You can buy network that includes all or some of the Premiere properties from Rush on down the lineup.

Then, there are the format syndicators who offer long form formats on a barter basis. Generally, since the format syndication is focused on smaller markets, this type of network is used to fill in some "reach" holes in a buy.

When national companies (Home Depot, Geico, Safelite) want to buy radio, they usually buy a national spot with Dial Global or one of the other syndicators who offers these services.

The first place national campaigns go for "network" is to the unwired collections that are sold together for what amounts to a volume discount rate.

These same companies' ads end up on the streaming services as well.

They only end up on streams if they specifically buy streams. Most agencies have "no streaming" dictates for every order they place.

But most of the revenue from ads in traditional radio comes from local or regional businesses.

In the larger markets at the larger stations, as much as half of all revenue comes from national spot buys.