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Analog signal after digital conversion?

T

theradiokid

Guest
Hello all,

I must admit that I'm not much of a TV person. However, I am curious about a forgotten element of this Analog DTV transission.

First, I will tell you that I'm totally blind. So, when I ask what I'm about to ask, I'm talking about things in an Audio perspective, and I don't really care about the answer to this in a visual perspective.

Okay. Now, we all know that in February, 2009, all analog signals will go dark, and everyone will have to transission to a digital component. I get it. But, the question I wanna ask is: What if I purposly do not upgrade a TV set? I wil now go into more detail here.

Here's what (I'm going to do. I'm considering buying an analog TV set from a relative, sticking it in a back room of my apartment near a window, and not upgrading it at all to anything that can recieve a digital signal. NoDTV, no analog/digital box, no cable, no satellite, no nothing. It will just be left the way it is now. Why am I doing this? I'm curious what I will here or what I might or might not pick up on the set. Will I get anything? I live near Lake Ontario, so, will I suddenly be able to pick up Canadian stations I've never heard before because American signals wouldn't let them come in? Or, will it be a continuous vacume of static, with every channel turning up nothing but an anoying static noise?

Now, I understand that the first few months or so of this will turn up nothing but static... probably... I dunno. But, the FCC is auctioning off the analog spectrem to different bidders. Some will be for internet use. And, I don't know about the rest. Does anyone here know anymore details?

And, what of that. How will that effect my little experimental analog only TV set? Who's getting the lower end of the dial (3, 4, 5, 6, etc?) and higher up (22, 24, 25, 26, etc?) Will these bidders actually put audio programming on my little set that I can here? Or, will they do something else with it, and, if so, will there be any audible results coming through on my non-adapted set?

And, what about the part of the spectrum that is being used for internet? Once that starts happening, and there is internet use on those frequencies, will that result in anything audible on my set? I know that Channel 55 everywhere will be used for internet. Once that starts, what will I hear when I tune my TV to channel 55? Beeping? Buzzing? Static?

Finally, do you think I should go through with this little experiment? Or, am I just wasting my time here?

If anyone has any answers (calling all engineers), please reply, or, if you wish, you may email me. I'm interested to see if anyone may have any answers.

--The Radio Kid
(AKA Oswego Jeremy, as nicknamed by George of the Radio Racket.)
My email: [email protected].
 
Sorry, I think I may have put this question in the wrong board. Sorry! Forgive me! I'm new to this side of things!

--The Radio Kid
(AKA Oswego Jeremy, as nicknamed by George of the Radio Racket.)
My email: [email protected].
 
This is probably as good a place as any for the question.

The answer is...a little of everything. From your perch just across the lake from Canada, you may pick up a handful of Canadian analog stations that are now blocked by co-channel US signals. (For instance, WSYR-TV in Syracuse will vacate channel 9, which might make it possible for CBOFT from Ottawa to come in when conditions are good.) Most of the Canadian signals are already pretty well frequency-coordinated with the US, so there aren't that many "blocked" channels that will free up after 2009. (Especially because some of the analog channels that go away in 2009 will be replaced by new digital signals - WSTM-DT in Syracuse will move to 24, for example, replacing analog WCNY-TV there.)

But Canada will go digital-only in 2011, so that's a short-term thing. You'll continue to receive any US LPTV stations that continue to broadcast in analog, since they're not required to shut off analog in 2009. At least in our area of western NY, it's my understanding that many of the LPTVs will convert to digital pretty quickly.

Any of the new services that occupy frequencies being vacated by broadcast TV will be digital, and so all you'll hear on your analog TV set will be static. But at least for now, those services will only occupy the "out of core" channels above 51 that are being removed from TV broadcast use. (And for now, you'll still pick up a few Canadians on those channels, anyway.)

Best advice, I'd think, would be to become familiar with your local TV dial now, while there are still a few months of analog operation remaining - and get to know who's moving where in 2009. That will give you an idea of what you might be able to pick up during and after the transition.
 
Scott Fybush,

Thanks for your reply. I'm confused about something you've written. You talked about how some analog channels that go away will be replaced by digital ones, and you sighted channel 24 as an example. Even though WSTM-DT will be on 24, that will be a digital signal, correct? If that is so, then, my experimental analog TV won't pick that up. It won't be converted. So, what will be on my analog 24 after the transission? Static?

--The Radio Kid
(AKA Oswego Jeremy, as nicknamed by George of the Radio Racket.)
My email: [email protected].
 
WSTM-DT on channel 24 would indeed be a digital-only station. Your old TV would not pick the station up, therefore you'd have just snow and noise.

The only thing close to this in Hartford/New Haven would be WTXX. They're currently on channel 20 for analog and channel 12 for digital. Come 2009, they will go back to channel 20, but would by digital-only then. As for one station taking the sport of another channel? Not quite. Currently, WEDN or Norwich uses channel 45 for their digital signal. Later this year, WEDH of Hartford will sign on and take that channel over. WEDN of Norwich will then move to channel 9 for digital.
 
It sounds like the OP is wondering what he'll get on his analog TV after Feb 2009.

If this is the case then you won't hear much if anything. Any cell phones will use digital and scrambled signal so you won't hear anything you can understand.

It's like now if I used my analog set to tune to channel 18 I get snow. But WGN (analog channel 9 and digital channel 19) is broadcasting digital on channel 19. So I see a different kind of snow on channel 19. This snow looks the same on all the channels that are currently broadcasting digital signals.

In otherwords the analog TV gets digital signals now, it's just the analog TV can interpret them correctly so it comes out as snow.

Analog and Digital use the same frequencies but they transmit pictures and sounds in two different ways.
 
If you have any low-power (LPTV) stations in your area, you might continue to see them until the FCC decides to require them to convert to digital. You also might see something we haven't been used to seeing in the US...pirate TV stations. There will be tons of transmission equipment in circulation and not being used. If someone decides to put an old-style analog station on in such a way that interference is not caused to digital stations, who is to say that the FCC would crack down on them?

Later....
Matt Smith
WGSR-TV...I've got dibs on our analog transmitter!
 
One of the advantages of "digital television" is a "much better" signal, if you
go to this web page, www.recnet.com, and type in the television call letters
and review what has been granted, you will notice a big difference especially
in LPTV outlets that are coming on board.
As you know, Wilmington, North Carolina will be the first television market
in the United States to go "all-digital", with the exception of WUNJ, our PBS
Station(even though there are already broadcasting digital) and another
"low-power" station in Shallotte on Channel 47, the "UNC-TV" station will
convert before the February 17th, 2009 deadline, but the one in Shallotte
is exempt for now, but if they want to stay on the air, they ought to go ahead
and make the move.
 
Wow. This conversation is getting interesting. And, for those of you who were asking, yes, the purpose of not upgrading the old TV is exactly that -- to have an analog TV open just to see what my ears will hear after the switch. To me, the idea of an empty analog spectrum is fasinating yet haunting at the same time.

Now, we also know that the analog spectrum will be auctioned off, and that bidders will take over those frequencies. I know that some will go for use of improving the internet (Channel 55, for example.) Once that frequency is used for that purpose will there be any sort of audio coming through the set (beeping, buzzing, etc?) But, I can't imagine that all the analog spectrum out there will be used for that purpose (especially the lower end of the dial.) What will they do with it, and, consequently, what will I hear on my experimental TV once these bidders start using the spectrum (voices? beeping? Moris Code? static?) I keep asking because it is such a mystery. Even though I'm blind, and can't see anything with my eyes, just the thought alone of nothing but static on analog TV scares the living crap out of me. I just can't imagine that it will be left blank and inaudible once these bidders take over. Even if they don't produce audible content for the spectrum, I'd have to imagine that (especially in the case of the internet companies) there'd be some kind of anoying audio somewhere. I don't know. It's all so knew, and, as I said, I'm not a TV person.

Thank you all for participating in this discussion. Please keep your thoughts coming. This is becoming a very interesting conversation. We're always talking about the new and exciting digital TV, but noone's really talking about what will happen if someone doesn't upgrade. But then again, I'm probably the only one who's crazy enough to buy an old analog TV, and conduct an experiment like this.

--The Radio Kid
(AKA Oswego Jeremy, as nicknamed by George of the Radio Racket.)
My email: [email protected].
 
bostonmediaguy said:
Matt Smith said:
WGSR-TV...I've got dibs on our analog transmitter!
Click to expand...

You bring up an interesting point. What are stations doing with these transmitters? Is there a market for them?
Click to expand...

Mexico, England and Canada... Canadian stations are putting in bids for a few on their own for Back up transmitters, But I have yet to hear about any being actually sold.
 
KML-224 said:
OK...have you decided what to do if your TV receives absolutely nothing whatsoever?
Click to expand...

Yes, I have. I realize that nothing will happen immediatly. Therefore, I will keep trying and trying to pick something up. After 3 or 4 years, if the band is all static, I will get rid of my experimental TV, but keep the knowledge that there wasn't, and never will be, any audio other than static, on analog TV ever again.

--The Radio Kid
(AKA Oswego Jeremy, as nicknamed by George of the Radio Racket.)
My email: [email protected].
 
If you use the "TV Signal Locator" feature at tvfool.com - it has a function that will show you which analog and digital stations are available both before and after the "digital transition" date of Feb. 17, 2009.
So, for example, once you supply your address, it can output a list of which analog stations (if any) will still be available in your area after the transition takes place.
I should mention, however, that although it looks like text, the tvfool.com system actually outputs its TV station listing as an image, so I'm not sure how accessible it would be if you prefer text.
You can, however, download the image from a text link. So perhaps you could send it to someone who can transcribe the results for you.
 
theradiokid said:
I know that some will go for use of improving the internet (Channel 55, for example.)
Click to expand...

Actually, channel 55 is to be used for digital TV! - but with standards not compatible with regular digital TV sets. It's used for mobile TV, broadcasting to cell phones -- Verizon's V-Cast service.

Once that frequency is used for that purpose will there be any sort of audio coming through the set (beeping, buzzing, etc?)
Click to expand...

One can't say for sure as the FCC isn't imposing any specific technology on those buying this spectrum. It is possible they could choose to use it for various low-speed data modes which will make apparent sounds when monitored on an analog receiver.

But I think that's VERY unlikely. Chances are the spectrum will be used for high-speed data. Such signals sound like noise when monitored on an analog receiver. You'll have a hard time distinguishing between a high-speed data signal and a complete absence of signal. (the high-speed data may sound a bit louder than the "lack of signal noise".)
 
I think there is one other possibility here that has not been mentioned. While it will indeed be possible in your location to pick up analog Canadian signals until 2011, it might also be possible during the summer months and for a brief period in December, to pick up Mexican analog stations via "Sporadic E." Of course these would be brief intrusions on the analog dial in your area and the signals would be highly unreliable. To my knowledge, Mexico has no plans to force conversion to digital anytime in the near future.
 
Also, as a more direct answer to your question, low powered Channel 43 in Houston formerly was used by a company called Accelernet for broadband internet and nothing was audible (or visible) beyond static on that channel (this venture did not work out long term and Channel 43 is now a Spanish news oriented TV station called TV Informa)
 
This really is a great conversation. Thanks everyone for all the info.

--The Radio Kid
(AKA Oswego Jeremy, as nicknamed by George of the Radio Racket.)
My email: [email protected].
 
I think you could also ask yourself the same kind of question, if you had a very old TV set that still gets channel 70 -83. What would you get on that? I don't have one but my guess is nothing. Any cell phones or cordless phones using those frequencies would be scrambled.

Damn this technology :)

It would be like a huge party line.
 
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