In the past, people that lived near a channel 6 used to listen to 87.7 when the power went out during a disaster. Now that it's digital, that lifeline is gone. I think TV stations, not just channel 6's, should be allowed to broadcast audio (without commercials) on an empty FM frequency during an emergency, even if it interferes with an out of market station. TV stations all have analog audio transmitters that are unused now.
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Analog TV in emergencies
- Thread starter nd2023
- Start date
How about Radio?
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
HD Radio will carry all of the emergency information you could want on HD-2 and HD-3 channels. We all know how public serving IBOC is.
rbrucecarter5 said:
The Public be damned (according to Iniquity & their minions - buy an HD Radio or you'll be out of the loop. (;
Wouldn't want emergency information to get in the way of Britney, 50 Cent, "Personality" Drivel and those precious commercials on the main channel, now would you?
BobOnTheJob said:
Good Ole Radio should be more than sufficient for emergency information for the foreseeable future, I agree Bob!
A solution in search of a problem.
If it's as important as is being posited, perhaps TV stations should come to an arrangement with local radio for simulcast. We had a massive thunderstorm come through Memphis a couple of weeks ago -- almost 200,000 customers without power, trees down, etc. Interestingly, this happened a couple of hours after our last analog signed-off on "transition day." So, at least one TV station went up on a Class C FM.
There. Solved...
DE
If it's as important as is being posited, perhaps TV stations should come to an arrangement with local radio for simulcast. We had a massive thunderstorm come through Memphis a couple of weeks ago -- almost 200,000 customers without power, trees down, etc. Interestingly, this happened a couple of hours after our last analog signed-off on "transition day." So, at least one TV station went up on a Class C FM.
There. Solved...
DE
Nick said:
What empty FM frequency? (few markets of any size *have* any empty channels...)
In any case, few TV stations are going to be able to invest the money in a FM transmitter if they're not allowed to run any commercials to recoup the cost.
The right answer to this issue is a NOAA weather radio. They're reliable, battery-operated, and automatically triggered.
Nick said:
But again, only if there is an available FM frequency to tune it to.
(also, it's not at all easy to retune a high-band VHF audio transmitter to an FM frequency, let alone a UHF transmitter. Heck, even going from channel 2 to FM wouldn't be a breeze, and for any TV channel except possibly 6, the antenna would need to be replaced.)
F
FreddyE1977
Guest
last week we had some severe storms and flooding in Pittsburgh, and KDKA TV2 did take their analog out of nightlight programming and simulcast their live news coverage (as they are permitted to under enhanced nightlight rules). But I doubt they will be able to fire up the TV2 analog signal past the end of July.
FreddyE1977 said:
Correct. Their authority to broadcast the analog signal expires for good at the end of their nightlight period - July 11 at the latest.
Few, if any, analog VHF stations will be left with working, unused transmission systems at the end of transition, in any case - so it's not as though there will be a bunch of spare transmitters sitting around ready to be fired up in case of emergency. Already, many stations have hauled out their old analog transmitters (if they were very old) or converted them to be used as DTV backups (if they were newer) or even as main DTV transmitters.
In my market, for instance, WROC-TV 8 shared an antenna with WHEC-TV 10, but will no longer be sharing that antenna now that WHEC has gone digital on 10 - so even if channel 8 kept its analog transmitter, rather than selling it, it would have no antenna to transmit an analog signal from. WHEC and WHAM-TV 13 both went digital on their former analog VHF channels, so they can't go back to analog now. And our two UHF stations, WXXI-TV 21 and WUHF-TV 31, won't have antennas to use - WUHF was leasing its space atop the WXXI tower, and there are plans to remove both its antenna and the WXXI analog antenna so that the WXXI-DT antenna can be moved to a higher new position.
(Even if the WXXI-TV antenna stays in place for a while, the analog transmitter is at death's door; we'll be lucky to make it to the end of our nightlight authorization July 10!)
Analog is over. If emergency communications are inadequate, the solutions will come from other sources - improved DTV portables, expanded use of NOAA weather radio, more TV simulcasts on radio, or (gasp) better emergency response from radio itself. Restarting a technology whose infrastructure is already in the process of being dismantled is a non-starter.
A wrench to throw into the works pertaining to the wonders of Digital Broadcasting during emergencies.As was observed during a series of severe storms passing through Western Pennsylvania this week, the fragility of the 8-VSB modulation scheme used shone through brightly.[KDKA-DT-25.]
With each intense downpour or lightning strike, the video would turn to a Scrabble® board, and the audio would VANISH. Under the SAME conditions with NTSC, there would be streaks in the video, but things were still intelligible, and the audio was unchanged.{Good old primitive narrow band Armstrong FM.}
But now that we have this "Next Big Thing" improved system, such reliability is a dimming memory.
RJ
With each intense downpour or lightning strike, the video would turn to a Scrabble® board, and the audio would VANISH. Under the SAME conditions with NTSC, there would be streaks in the video, but things were still intelligible, and the audio was unchanged.{Good old primitive narrow band Armstrong FM.}
But now that we have this "Next Big Thing" improved system, such reliability is a dimming memory.
RJ
Glad you pointed that out. Several years ago, I was in a shopping mall 40 miles from Indianapolis. A severe thunderstorm came up & a TV in the mall was tuned to WISH TV's Local Weather Station via cable (the head end picked up LWS from WISH DT 8-2). EVERY time lightning struck, the picture looked as you described & the audio died. Vital, potentially life saving information was not making it through the entire Columbus,Indiana cable system. I see that this aspect of the DT technology has not improved. Lots more power will be needed to beef this up. Speaking of which, one of the Columbus Ohio DT's has an application in for 1700KW of DT...maybe the FCC is finally figuring out that there is more static in the real world than in the pristine lab this system was obviously designed in?RJ Kanary said:A wrench to throw into the works pertaining to the wonders of Digital Broadcasting during emergencies.As was observed during a series of severe storms passing through Western Pennsylvania this week, the fragility of the 8-VSB modulation scheme used shone through brightly.[KDKA-DT-25.]
With each intense downpour or lightning strike, the video would turn to a Scrabble® board, and the audio would VANISH. Under the SAME conditions with NTSC, there would be streaks in the video, but things were still intelligible, and the audio was unchanged.{Good old primitive narrow band Armstrong FM.}
But now that we have this "Next Big Thing" improved system, such reliability is a dimming memory.
RJ
BobOnTheJob said:
('course, without DTV LWS probably wouldn't have been available in Columbus, Indiana at all...)
There's a provision in the DTV regulations that allows a station to apply for as much power as is necessary to cover as much area as the widest-coverage station in the same market. In Columbus, that's WSYX-DT 13; WBNS made a showing that 1700kw is necessary on channel 21 to replicate WSYX's coverage. I should say, *is trying* to make a showing, as the FCC has not yet acted on this application - the vast majority of other technical change applications filed around the same time have already seen FCC action.
(the lack of action might be because WSYX has filed to move to channel 48; if approved, that move would eliminate WBNS's justification in seeking 1700kw.)
(the way I read the rules, THERE IS NO LIMIT on the power of a DTV if that power is necessary to replicate some other station's coverage. However, the power is still limited by the need to avoid interference to other stations.)
Glad you pointed that out. Several years ago, I was in a shopping mall 40 miles from Indianapolis. A severe thunderstorm came up & a TV in the mall was tuned to WISH TV's Local Weather Station via cable (the head end picked up LWS from WISH DT 8-2). EVERY time lightning struck, the picture looked as you described & the audio died. Vital, potentially life saving information was not making it through the entire Columbus,Indiana cable system. I see that this aspect of the DT technology has not improved. Lots more power will be needed to beef this up. Speaking of which, one of the Columbus Ohio DT's has an application in for 1700KW of DT...maybe the FCC is finally figuring out that there is more static in the real world than in the pristine lab this system was obviously designed in?
[/quote]
Imagine that, first thing Monday morning, the FCC granted an across-the-board doubling of DTV power. Every station authorized for 1000kw could increase to 2000kw; every VHF-High station authorized for 40kw could increase to 80kw; etc...
I would suggest that 80-90% or more of stations would return their power increase permits for cancellation.
Utility expenses go up with power output. Coverage doesn't. Doubling the utility bills to serve maybe 15% of the audience -- and by definition, the 15% that cares least about TV -- is going to be pretty hard to justify on the bottom line in *good* economic times.
Of course, these aren't good economic times.
(I would imagine a rather large proportion of stations simply couldn't make use of a power increase -- they couldn't finance the larger transmitter/antenna/RF "plumbing"/cooling system.)
[/quote]
Imagine that, first thing Monday morning, the FCC granted an across-the-board doubling of DTV power. Every station authorized for 1000kw could increase to 2000kw; every VHF-High station authorized for 40kw could increase to 80kw; etc...
I would suggest that 80-90% or more of stations would return their power increase permits for cancellation.
Utility expenses go up with power output. Coverage doesn't. Doubling the utility bills to serve maybe 15% of the audience -- and by definition, the 15% that cares least about TV -- is going to be pretty hard to justify on the bottom line in *good* economic times.
Of course, these aren't good economic times.
(I would imagine a rather large proportion of stations simply couldn't make use of a power increase -- they couldn't finance the larger transmitter/antenna/RF "plumbing"/cooling system.)
w9wi said:
Imagine that, first thing Monday morning, the FCC granted an across-the-board doubling of DTV power. Every station authorized for 1000kw could increase to 2000kw; every VHF-High station authorized for 40kw could increase to 80kw; etc...
I would suggest that 80-90% or more of stations would return their power increase permits for cancellation.
Utility expenses go up with power output. Coverage doesn't. Doubling the utility bills to serve maybe 15% of the audience -- and by definition, the 15% that cares least about TV -- is going to be pretty hard to justify on the bottom line in *good* economic times.
Of course, these aren't good economic times.
(I would imagine a rather large proportion of stations simply couldn't make use of a power increase -- they couldn't finance the larger transmitter/antenna/RF "plumbing"/cooling system.)
[/quote]
Agreed...the cost would make many power increases a moot issue. But with cases like WHAS 11 running 1.27KW TPO, a power increase may be cost effective (worth noting that they have a power increase filed for). Where I respectfully disagree is in the boonies where people go to great lengths (or heights) to get distant reception. That 15% put far more effort into securing TV reception than the urban population who needs an $8 set of rabbit ears. By my definition, that 15% cares more than the closer in folks, in part because when they roll up the sidewalks in small town America, there isn't as much to do as there is in the big cities...just my thoughts.
I'm not suggesting an across the board power increase due to interference issues, just saying that the DT system was not tested adequately in the vicinity of thunderstorms or even 1977 Chevy's with noisy spark plug wires driving near the antenna. It takes very little to damage the integrity of a DT signal. My bottom line is that if the city grade service area for a given station was 50dbu in analog, the allocation system should have been designed to provide 50dbu as the digital service area as well, not the double digit lower figures that were used. In a quiet laboratory, maybe 15 or so db less is adequate. In a world with lightning, chain saws & noisy power lines, the system comes up short of what we had with analog. Don't get me wrong, I love the quality of HDTV...it just needs to be as potent as analog was for it to be the complete success the viewing public deserves & expects.
F
FreddyE1977
Guest
BobOnTheJob said:Glad you pointed that out. Several years ago, I was in a shopping mall 40 miles from Indianapolis. A severe thunderstorm came up & a TV in the mall was tuned to WISH TV's Local Weather Station via cable (the head end picked up LWS from WISH DT 8-2). EVERY time lightning struck, the picture looked as you described & the audio died. Vital, potentially life saving information was not making it through the entire Columbus,Indiana cable system. I see that this aspect of the DT technology has not improved. Lots more power will be needed to beef this up. Speaking of which, one of the Columbus Ohio DT's has an application in for 1700KW of DT...maybe the FCC is finally figuring out that there is more static in the real world than in the pristine lab this system was obviously designed in?RJ Kanary said:A wrench to throw into the works pertaining to the wonders of Digital Broadcasting during emergencies.As was observed during a series of severe storms passing through Western Pennsylvania this week, the fragility of the 8-VSB modulation scheme used shone through brightly.[KDKA-DT-25.]
With each intense downpour or lightning strike, the video would turn to a Scrabble® board, and the audio would VANISH. Under the SAME conditions with NTSC, there would be streaks in the video, but things were still intelligible, and the audio was unchanged.{Good old primitive narrow band Armstrong FM.}
But now that we have this "Next Big Thing" improved system, such reliability is a dimming memory.
RJ
Which Columbus station is that? If the FCC has to approve power increases like that, they are going to need to take back channels 52-83! I'm sure that one of the sales pitches used to go digital was an energy savings. Guess that is out the window.
WBNS... http://fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php?sCurrentService=TV&tabSearchType=Appl&sAppIDNumber=1248285FreddyE1977 said:BobOnTheJob said:Glad you pointed that out. Several years ago, I was in a shopping mall 40 miles from Indianapolis. A severe thunderstorm came up & a TV in the mall was tuned to WISH TV's Local Weather Station via cable (the head end picked up LWS from WISH DT 8-2). EVERY time lightning struck, the picture looked as you described & the audio died. Vital, potentially life saving information was not making it through the entire Columbus,Indiana cable system. I see that this aspect of the DT technology has not improved. Lots more power will be needed to beef this up. Speaking of which, one of the Columbus Ohio DT's has an application in for 1700KW of DT...maybe the FCC is finally figuring out that there is more static in the real world than in the pristine lab this system was obviously designed in?RJ Kanary said:A wrench to throw into the works pertaining to the wonders of Digital Broadcasting during emergencies.As was observed during a series of severe storms passing through Western Pennsylvania this week, the fragility of the 8-VSB modulation scheme used shone through brightly.[KDKA-DT-25.]
With each intense downpour or lightning strike, the video would turn to a Scrabble® board, and the audio would VANISH. Under the SAME conditions with NTSC, there would be streaks in the video, but things were still intelligible, and the audio was unchanged.{Good old primitive narrow band Armstrong FM.}
But now that we have this "Next Big Thing" improved system, such reliability is a dimming memory.
RJ
Which Columbus station is that? If the FCC has to approve power increases like that, they are going to need to take back channels 52-83! I'm sure that one of the sales pitches used to go digital was an energy savings. Guess that is out the window.
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