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fang39
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andreajesus said:
LOL! Happy Holidays to you, too!
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Analysis: The Revenge of WNEW-FM?
- Thread starter wrsurocks
- Start date
LOL! Happy Holidays to you, too!
Kevin L. Sealy said:
I agree with Kevin. New York's best set of call-letters were WNEW and WNEW-FM. 11-three-0, now WBBR, had a legacy that no station could ever match. Even this writer, living in suburban Boston, Massachusetts in the 1970's (as a teen) knew about WNEW thanks in part due to its' killer 50,000 watt signal up and down the Northeast coast. I also knew that WNEW-FM was one of the most-influential FM rock stations around, just like WBCN/Boston, WXRT/Chicago and more. I remember many rock albums in the 70's had liner notes from several 'NEW-FM jocks giving their "seal-of-approval" of the group and their music.
Could WNEW-FM make a resurgence today on 102.7 ? You bet! Since the end of the rock era on 102.7 back in the 90's, the replacements of WNEW-FM have "not-exactly" met with universal success. The "FM Talk", the "Blinks" (man was that a dog!), the Christmas stint and finally the "Fresh" bit have been poor substitutes for the station that used to be "Where Rock Lives". No doubt, any return to WNEW-FM will never be exactly what "once was". BUT, it could be the start of something new (no pun intended). Apparently, the HD2 version of WNEW-FM is getting some notice, mainly thanks to the Internet stream. 101.9 WRXP will never be a true competitor, at least in its' current state. WAXQ ("Q-104.3") is doing what it does best, playing Classic Rock almost exclusively. A new WNEW-FM could do well in including the rock titles that made the music so popular in the first place AND also include some music from "up-and-coming" acts who would respect the Classic Rock genre. Keep the "liner cards" to a minimum and let the personalities (and include some of the original jocks) be themselves in true WNEW-FM fashion. Get some in studio guests once and a while and most of all, let it be fun. True, the WNEW-FM call-letters have been absent from the New York airwaves for sometime now. But, they still have some valuable recall ability. And let's face it, anything on 102.7 FM would be an improvement from what has occupied it now for the past 10 years.
Cheers,
Peter Q. George (K1XRB)
Whitman, Massachusetts
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fang39
Guest
Peter Q. George (K1XRB) said:
Well said!
Peter Q. George
(K1XRB),
When it comes to the WNEW call letters like those other call signs including, WABC, WOR and others that are historic they have an emotional attachment to its listeners and those who worked there.
We don't need to start another thread on this, but I can't see another radio station in New York playing Pop Standards without using the WNEW call letters. And I'm sure eventhough they may not vocalize it, but a sizeable number of WAXQ-1043 listeners would like to see the WNEW-FM call letters resurface.
Clear Channel brought back the WKTU call letters, but the New York Times tried to bring the WNEW-AM over to 1560AM.But they did what they thought was the next best thing by combining the traditions of both WNEW & WQXR creating WQEW. Arthur was also unsuccessful in trying to resurrect WNEW-AM, but created WNSW.
If the WNEW call letters weren't so valuable, why did CBS park them at a station in Florida.
Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy
(K1XRB),
When it comes to the WNEW call letters like those other call signs including, WABC, WOR and others that are historic they have an emotional attachment to its listeners and those who worked there.
We don't need to start another thread on this, but I can't see another radio station in New York playing Pop Standards without using the WNEW call letters. And I'm sure eventhough they may not vocalize it, but a sizeable number of WAXQ-1043 listeners would like to see the WNEW-FM call letters resurface.
Clear Channel brought back the WKTU call letters, but the New York Times tried to bring the WNEW-AM over to 1560AM.But they did what they thought was the next best thing by combining the traditions of both WNEW & WQXR creating WQEW. Arthur was also unsuccessful in trying to resurrect WNEW-AM, but created WNSW.
If the WNEW call letters weren't so valuable, why did CBS park them at a station in Florida.
Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy
"But if rock is returned to 102.7FM and the WNEW call letters, bring back Dave Herman, Pete Fornatale, Dennis Elsas, Richard Neer and Pat St. John if they're all available."
Or just listen to all those names on Sirius now.
IDEA! Let's rent a van and go down to Florida and demand those call letters back from the hip hop station using them now, B-106.
Or just listen to all those names on Sirius now.
IDEA! Let's rent a van and go down to Florida and demand those call letters back from the hip hop station using them now, B-106.
It's hard to talk about music radio, or rock radio, without talking about the state of rock music, which is a mess. It is anarchy. There are so many artists, so many fringes of the box, and so many personal tastes in rock that I wonder if it can ever recover.
That's what WNEW-FM was discovering in the 90s. Even with Scott Muni. That's what MTV discovered at the same time. The music splintered in so many directions that every time you play a song or a group, you alienate someone. Radio is not in the alienation business, but the accumulation business. It wants to attract as many people it can, and keep them there as long as they can. Rock music, such as it is, can't do that any more, because everyone has their own private radio station. That's partly why WRXP is getting a .9. The core audience is never going to be satisfied.
It's nice to talk about heritage and history. It's important to celebrate those things and keep their memories alive. But there's also a lot of potential of destroying that heritage by reviving call letters and imaging, and putting it on the market as some kind of return to the past. Especially when the advertising world is kind of glutted with that kind of thing right now. Realistically, what could a revived WNEW-FM attract? A 2 share? I doubt it. This was not a station that spent a lot of time in NY's Top 10, as WCBS-FM did. This was mostly a fringe station that, when it became popular, was seen as a sell-out, causing some DJs like Vinny to leave because he couldn't have fun any more. And the fact is that most of the legendary air staff are either dead or unwilling to risk their own personal heritage. Why would Pete Fornatale go back to a big commercial radio station? Wouldn't that hurt his credibility?
The bigger problem is what music do you play? The WCBS-FM listeners argue about that all day. How much 80s music do you play on a 60s/70s station? With regards to WNEW, how many times do you play Freebird and Stairway to Heaven? At what point do you play the Beastie Boys? Green Day? Lenny Kravitz? I'm just asking. Do those audiences mesh? They didn't mesh 15 years ago, so why should they mesh now? There's a thread theer about K-Rock's music being all over the board. But that's kind of what they have to do in order to balance all the individual tastes in music. WNEW-FM would run into that same wall. It worked better when WNEW-FM didn't have to compete against WPLJ, or even WAPP, because it could take more chances, and the audience would stick with them. A revived station wouldn't have that advantage.
The thought I have in talking about heritage is that how relevant is it in the 21st century? Does heritage matter now? Because as great as it is to celebrate the past, radio is an entity that has to exist and get its funding in the present.
Just a few questions to ask...but I really love the discussion.
That's what WNEW-FM was discovering in the 90s. Even with Scott Muni. That's what MTV discovered at the same time. The music splintered in so many directions that every time you play a song or a group, you alienate someone. Radio is not in the alienation business, but the accumulation business. It wants to attract as many people it can, and keep them there as long as they can. Rock music, such as it is, can't do that any more, because everyone has their own private radio station. That's partly why WRXP is getting a .9. The core audience is never going to be satisfied.
It's nice to talk about heritage and history. It's important to celebrate those things and keep their memories alive. But there's also a lot of potential of destroying that heritage by reviving call letters and imaging, and putting it on the market as some kind of return to the past. Especially when the advertising world is kind of glutted with that kind of thing right now. Realistically, what could a revived WNEW-FM attract? A 2 share? I doubt it. This was not a station that spent a lot of time in NY's Top 10, as WCBS-FM did. This was mostly a fringe station that, when it became popular, was seen as a sell-out, causing some DJs like Vinny to leave because he couldn't have fun any more. And the fact is that most of the legendary air staff are either dead or unwilling to risk their own personal heritage. Why would Pete Fornatale go back to a big commercial radio station? Wouldn't that hurt his credibility?
The bigger problem is what music do you play? The WCBS-FM listeners argue about that all day. How much 80s music do you play on a 60s/70s station? With regards to WNEW, how many times do you play Freebird and Stairway to Heaven? At what point do you play the Beastie Boys? Green Day? Lenny Kravitz? I'm just asking. Do those audiences mesh? They didn't mesh 15 years ago, so why should they mesh now? There's a thread theer about K-Rock's music being all over the board. But that's kind of what they have to do in order to balance all the individual tastes in music. WNEW-FM would run into that same wall. It worked better when WNEW-FM didn't have to compete against WPLJ, or even WAPP, because it could take more chances, and the audience would stick with them. A revived station wouldn't have that advantage.
The thought I have in talking about heritage is that how relevant is it in the 21st century? Does heritage matter now? Because as great as it is to celebrate the past, radio is an entity that has to exist and get its funding in the present.
Just a few questions to ask...but I really love the discussion.
andreajesus said:
As I said, it did not come back with a vengeance. After one good debut month, it was down and down again, with the diary based 25-54 being about the same as Jack had obtained.
fang39 said:
There were Oldies stations going back to the late 60's. In 1969, we had two in DC... Jack Alix programmed "Million Dollar Music Weel" on 1310 and Barry Richard's WMOD on FM, both all oldies. And that is just one market.
[/quote]Admit it Dave. You've never liked the fact that you were proven wrong when WCBS-FM came back last year.[/quote]
Yeah, CBS-FM, in the diary, did essentially no better on its return than it did as Jack in 25-54. Whether they did well in 55+ is irrelevant, as that is a demo nearly no advertiser wants.
F
fang39
Guest
DavidEduardo said:
Yes, and how many of those stations still resemble anything close to an "oldies" or "classic hits" (as you prefer) almost 40 years later? And regarding the undesirable 55+ demo, it's time for you, product manufacturers and the ad community to wake up and smell the coffee. The world and it's economy are changing and you better start looking for new ways to reach a broader (if not older) market. Targeting a finite market will net you a less than finite return. You leave too much on the table. To quote an old miner, "There's gold in them thar hills!"
fang39 said:
Oldies is an industry term for 60's based Top 40 gold formats, while classic hits is the term for 70's based ones. They are different formats, although each station may be different.
The point is that CBS FM came 5 or 6 years after the first all gold Top 40 hit based stations, so it invented nothing.
In thse times, we are seing advertisers go even more 18-49 than 25-54. This is because the older the consumer, the more messages it takes to create changes in established buying patterns. In many cases, to make a sale you spend more in ads than you make on the sale. That is nnot likely to change, and the dictate comes from the big companies ranging from beers to P&G.
Peter Q. George (K1XRB) said:
This is pretty ridiculous. People are posting on pure emotion and ignoring some realities. First off, Fresh is hardly a "dog." It may not be your cup of tea or mine, but it has a certain target audience that it sticks to and seems to be doing well with. It's not in Lite FM territory, but it's a station that seems to be doing fairly well and CBS is probably happy with its performance. Just because you or some other posters may not like the station (I personally cringe at their "Fresh" jingles), doesn't automatically make the station a failure. It also doesn't automatically mean that a return to rock on 102.7 would automatically be successful. If anything, when looking at WNEW's ratings in its last years as a rock station, they were nothing to be impressed about (Fresh's ratings are probably better).
As for recall...let's not forget that many of us here are "radio geeks" and paid more attention than the average person to different stations, call letters, etc. Whether or not you knew about WNEW in New England in the 1970s is absolutely irrelevant to radio realities today.
Including the rock titles that made WNEW popular as well as new up and coming music? That sounds like either a) Q104.3 (which does play some new music and many cuts from the 90s as well) or b) the train wreck that is RXP, with its mish-mash of rock from the 60s to today. Copying option a would merely lead to a split of the audience with Q104.3 (and the suburban classic rockers), and copying b would just be pathetic, when looking at RXP's ratings.
I do think a rock station leaning new and with a AAA-ish tilt can potentially succeed, but the music has to be *very* focused. I also think that it would have the same chance of succeeding (or failing) whether or not it adopts the WNEW branding or is on 102.7 or not.
EXACTLY! At some point, one has to wonder what "heritage" really means. WNEW was not exactly a huge ratings success, especially in its last years. It may have had a dedicated audience, but not a particularly large one...and it's certainly an audience that, in 10 years since WNEW was last on the air, has probably waned. It would probably also be split between Q104.3, stations like WFUV (where many of the ex-WNEW DJ's live on), suburban stations like The Peak, and of course RXP, not to mention internet/satellite radio, which would go far deeper into the music those devoted rock fans want to hear and which would never be heard on any commercial reincarnation of WNEW, like it or not.
WNEW wasn't cracking a 2 share in the 90's when it left the airwaves. My bet is that it would hover in RXP-KRock territory if it's brought back....and bringing back the old DJ's as well? Pricey pricey. I don't see CBS taking that sort of a step.
Whether or not those stations are still carrying the oldies or classic hits format is absolutely irrelevant when discussing which stations "invented" the format. How many original Top 40 stations are still around? Can we say that Z100 "invented" Top 40 radio, because it's still around while, say, Musicradio WABC is not? Once again emotion is getting in the way of an objective discussion.
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fang39
Guest
DavidEduardo said:
Whether it's called "Oldies" or "Classic Hits" is just industry semantics. Ask 100 random people in NYC what WCBS-FM plays and they'll say "Oldies". And maybe they didn't invent it, but they sustained it as a successful and viable format for decades after those other stations changed formats to something else.
DavidEduardo said:
Again, time to rethink the model. By going after a younger demo, you (radio, manufacturers and the ad community) are chasing a market that has found better things to do with their time and disposable income. And I'm sure the next thing you're going to do is roll out numbers that indicate that the 18-49 listener base is as strong as it was 10 years ago. That, my friend, is an illusion.
Consolidation and technology aside, IMHO, the radio industry as a whole is killing itself. It's the tail wagging the dog. Nobody ever turned on a radio to hear the commercials. Yes, I know they are the fuel that drives the bus, but it doesn't matter if there are no passengers. Give us more music, real air personalities, live and local. That's what will revive the indsutry and bring the listeners back. When you have listeners, advertisers will follow. I've said it here all to many times over the years..."Build it and they will come"
fang39 said:
And even if they've sustained the format longer than those other stations, that doesn't change the fact that they didn't "invent" the format. Those are two completely different things. Not to mention that the format has greatly evolved. Oldies in 2008 isn't the same as it was even in 2005, or 1998 or certainly before.
DavidEduardo said:
Again, time to rethink the model. By going after a younger demo, you (radio, manufacturers and the ad community) are chasing a market that has found better things to do with their time and disposable income. And I'm sure the next thing you're going to do is roll out numbers that indicate that the 18-49 listener base is as strong as it was 10 years ago. That, my friend, is an illusion.
Consolidation and technology aside, IMHO, the radio industry as a whole is killing itself. It's the tail wagging the dog. Nobody ever turned on a radio to hear the commercials. Yes, I know they are the fuel that drives the bus, but it doesn't matter if there are no passengers. Give us more music, real air personalities, live and local. That's what will revive the indsutry and bring the listeners back. When you have listeners, advertisers will follow. I've said it here all to many times over the years..."Build it and they will come"
[/quote]
That I agree with. But I also think radio needs to try and go after the younger listeners if it wants to have a future. Going after the 55+ listeners isn't really going to accomplish a whole lot as they age even more. You need to build a lasting audience and need to start young to do so.
The mistake is and has been going after the younger demos with the same exact thing that turned them away from radio in the first place. And yes, while we may be presented with statistics showing that listening from 12-18 or 18-26 or 18-35 is steady or growing, as we know, statistics can be molded to fit any reality. I think radio is trying too hard to go after the audience they already have, instead of the audience they lost.
neo11 said:
Really? What happened to WRXP? Live & Local 24/7, with real air personalities.
Oh right, make sure the music is right. But the music will NEVER be right, because everyone has their favorites.
There's always one more thing. NOTHING will bring the listeners back, because there's always an excuse. There's always an out. There didn't used to be an out. If you wanted to hear The Beatles, there was only one place. Well, two places if you included WMCA. But you weren't going to hear them on WMGM or WOR or WLIB. You only could see them on TV when they did Sullivan. It was a near monopoly, so people would sit through Louis Armstrong singing Hello Dolly or those nuns singing "Dominique," all in French for God's sake, just because we MIGHT get a chance to hear George Harrison sing "Do You Want To Know a Secret."
No, the listeners won't be coming back. Not in the numbers like before. Too many radio stations, too many alternatives, too many things screaming for your leasure time, and most of them are more responsive than radio, because they are programmable.
These things were happening in the 90s, as WNEW-FM's numbers were going down. This is why the station went away. Even 15 years ago, when all the great personalities were still live and local on WNEW, listenership was going down. If Scott Muni and Dave Herman couldn't keep them listening 15 years ago, how will they be able to do it now? That's why, even if they do revive WNEW-FM, and even if they find a way to coax back some of the DJs, and even if they figure out the music mix, and even if they keep the commercial load to what it was in the 80s, you will still have people complaining on boards like this that they're not going to listen, because it's just not like it was. Even if it is.
fang39 said:
Of course they do, because there is no need to "train" listeners to industry terms. The fact is that we use more precise terms among ourselves so we know more precisely what a station programs... and, more important, so advertisers have a common language for time buying functions.
A random sample of 100 New Yorkers would likely yield 50 or 60 who had no idea what WCBS FM was, let alone what it played. And another 20 or so who could not tell you what it played, as they knew of it but did not use it.
Many other stations sustained the format, too... like KRTH in LA, the Drake / chenault creation that really defined the format. And KRTH did not abandon the format, either. It adapted, something WCBS did not do in a timely manner.
Again, time to rethink the model. By going after a younger demo, you (radio, manufacturers and the ad community) are chasing a market that has found better things to do with their time and disposable income.[/quote]
Radio exists at the whim of advertisers. If nobody buys 55+, we can't program for that demo... the dictates come from agency clients and the media does not visit agency clients, just the agencies. If everyone starts buying 55+ next week, you will see 1000 stations flip formats by January.
The fact is, though, that radio has to program to the audience that advertisers want to buy. If the audience is declining, the pricing has to match the delivery. As long as we can make money that way, we will continue to program for the audience in demand. It's the whole model of mass appeal media... radio, tv, print, that is debilitated by the move to coustomizable media. Radio is not alone, and will continue to exist as long as there is a market for "consnsus" programming, since we can't do "individualized" programming.
The listeners to mass appeal radio do not want real air personalities in many situations when they do want to listen. They do not give a rats patotie about localism unless local is more entertaining than national or regional. "Live"is an industry concept, just like the format names you criticised.... listeners don't care, and usually don't know the difference. Programming is judged, very simply stated, by whether I the listener like it or not. The other stuff is irrelevant... and sometimes downright harmful.
For all the naysayers I can sum it up in 4 letters:
WXRT
Why can this AAA in Chicago pull it off but not WNEW? Toss in the fact that Norm Winer of WXRT is programming the WNEW HD2 stream, including the vintage Muni interviews straight from the completely underutilized vault over on 54th...and it's a no-brainer.
Kill RXP and XRK and it makes even more sense. A laid-back, logically-programmed AAA to cater to the yuppies and some 30-40s who remember the station will work.
WXRT
Why can this AAA in Chicago pull it off but not WNEW? Toss in the fact that Norm Winer of WXRT is programming the WNEW HD2 stream, including the vintage Muni interviews straight from the completely underutilized vault over on 54th...and it's a no-brainer.
Kill RXP and XRK and it makes even more sense. A laid-back, logically-programmed AAA to cater to the yuppies and some 30-40s who remember the station will work.
neo11 said:
I agree with neo11 on his points.
If this is done right it will NOT be done with more than MAYBE a token throwback DJ and a template for success. It will not succeed if done haphazardly like WRXP.
It needs to be like WXRT. Listen to this station through at least one song set (if you like AAA stations you'll want it on for longer) and check out their website and see how the station is programmed. They KNOW their audience and cater to it.
Of course any station could sign on as W-whatever. The calls don't matter. But why start with NOTHING when you have an ESTABLISHED BRAND that just needs some polishing and has at least SOME built-in enthusiast audience in the 30-40 demo?
"This is pretty ridiculous. People are posting on pure emotion and ignoring some realities."
Welcome to the internet where reality has little to do with accountability and where rumor and perception become real once someone types it.
Welcome to the internet where reality has little to do with accountability and where rumor and perception become real once someone types it.
F
fang39
Guest
DavidEduardo said:
Again, the tail wagging the dog. Nobody tunes in to hear the commercials. Radio is an entertainment and information medium. The advertising, while a necessary component, is not the main attraction.
DavidEduardo said:
Time to rethink the model, cause it ain't working.
DavidEduardo said:
Contrary to your assertions, listeners DO care. The legions of loyal WCBS-FM listeners proved that. It's blanket statements like yours that are "downright harmful". Maybe if you stopped targeting the lowest common denomenator in your focus groups, you might be surprised at how the reality doesn't match the perception you described. The market research has become skewed to provide statistical data to back the plan you were going to employ anyway. Why not take a true "random" sample of people, whether they listen to the radio or not. Don't pre-qualify them. While a more costly proposition, it just might be a way for the industry for figure out a way out of the mess they're currently in. It's the same in sales. Your goal is to convert the "shopper" into a "buyer".
A
adma
Guest
In a thread like this, this is worth pondering.
And even if their audiences are marginal and the pay is nil, why is it that they seem more, how shall we say it, serene than a lot of the radio geeks (industry or otherwise) within this realm...
And even if their audiences are marginal and the pay is nil, why is it that they seem more, how shall we say it, serene than a lot of the radio geeks (industry or otherwise) within this realm...
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