Analysis: The Revenge of WNEW-FM?

[fang39]

In a thread like this, this is worth pondering.

And even if their audiences are marginal and the pay is nil, why is it that they seem more, how shall we say it, serene than a lot of the radio geeks (industry or otherwise) within this realm...

Because they're not trying to earn a living doing it.

 

[davideduardo]

Contrary to your assertions, listeners DO care. The legions of loyal WCBS-FM listeners proved that.

Huh? What did they prove, other than in the salable demos Jack was doing just as well?

Maybe if you stopped targeting the lowest common denomenator in your focus groups, you might be surprised at how the reality doesn't match the perception you described.

I have not been involved in a focus group for a decade, and then it was not my choice of a research method.

The market research has become skewed to provide statistical data to back the plan you were going to employ anyway. Why not take a true "random" sample of people, whether they listen to the radio or not.

That is exactly what a format search does. And they are done all the time. Usually,they are based on identifying preferences for music genrres and then determining if each person who like a genre is satisfied with the job being done. The opportunities and rating potential is derived from this data.

"Non users" is a myth. A study done in Canada by the BBM showed that on a given week, the 5% or so of non-users was mostly made up of people who were out of town, sick, on jury duty, etc., etc who had no chance to listen. The light users were found to be people with no more opportunity... such as those with a short commute and a restricted work environment, etc. and who could not listen any more... not because of dislike of radio but lack of opportunity.

Don't pre-qualify them. While a more costly proposition, it just might be a way for the industry for figure out a way out of the mess they're currently in. It's the same in sales. Your goal is to convert the "shopper" into a "buyer".

In a large market, and NY is the third largest in the entire Hemisphere, sales is mostly based on ratings and cost... called transactional selling. Unless you want low rate small businesses as advertisers, that is the way it is done. A small medium like radio will not change it.

 

[fang39]

The market research has become skewed to provide statistical data to back the plan you were going to employ anyway. Why not take a true "random" sample of people, whether they listen to the radio or not.

"Non users" is a myth. A study done in Canada by the BBM showed that on a given week, the 5% or so of non-users was mostly made up of people who were out of town, sick, on jury duty, etc., etc who had no chance to listen. The light users were found to be people with no more opportunity... such as those with a short commute and a restricted work environment, etc. and who could not listen any more... not because of dislike of radio but lack of opportunity.

The fact that you actually believe that this is true is frightening!

Don't pre-qualify them. While a more costly proposition, it just might be a way for the industry for figure out a way out of the mess they're currently in. It's the same in sales. Your goal is to convert the "shopper" into a "buyer".

In a large market, and NY is the third largest in the entire Hemisphere, sales is mostly based on ratings and cost... called transactional selling. Unless you want low rate small businesses as advertisers, that is the way it is done. A small medium like radio will not change it.

Again, time to rethink the model.

 

[TheBigA]

Again, time to rethink the model.

OK...you want to tell the ad agencies that everything they know is wrong? Good luck. Most of the problems with radio programming today can be traced to ad agencies. It's why WCBS doesn't play do wop. It's why radio stations don't target teens. It's why fringe formats aren't embraced. It's all because of advertising. If you could find another way to fund programming without advertising, everyone would be happier. But subscription radio is having limited success, and public radio, which is supported by members, is also having financial trouble.

 

[TheBigA]

Why can this AAA in Chicago pull it off but not WNEW?

Hey they're pulling it off in LA too. Same company.

And this same company has a country station in Chicago in the Top 10. Getting a 3 share!!! Imagine getting a 3 share in NYC! Bring back Del Demontreaux and Lee Arnold!

This is why I'm sure they're giving it every consideration. But the reality is that Jack got far better ratings in Chicago than it ever did in NYC. So what works in one place isn't guaranteed to work someplace else.

 

[adma]

In a thread like this, this is worth pondering.

And even if their audiences are marginal and the pay is nil, why is it that they seem more, how shall we say it, serene than a lot of the radio geeks (industry or otherwise) within this realm...

Because they're not trying to earn a living doing it.

Exactly. But it also ties them more into the downloading generation, spiritually speaking. Maybe it's beyond "trying to earn a living" about--or perhaps, it's a launching pad t/w other, more valid cultural-realm means of "earning a living" rather than yokking it up with a bunch of vulgar lifer radio buffoons.

Look--face it. This is the kind of radio, heck, the kind of "entertainment production and consumption" realm that has truly succeeded and superceded even the once-enlightened likes of 70s WNEW. So, why try to drag that sort of thing out again?

 

[fang39]

Again, time to rethink the model.

OK...you want to tell the ad agencies that everything they know is wrong? Good luck. Most of the problems with radio programming today can be traced to ad agencies. It's why WCBS doesn't play do wop. It's why radio stations don't target teens. It's why fringe formats aren't embraced. It's all because of advertising. If you could find another way to fund programming without advertising, everyone would be happier. But subscription radio is having limited success, and public radio, which is supported by members, is also having financial trouble.

I'm not saying that radio should fund programming without advertising. I'm just saying that the current way of doing things isn't working. When you cram 8-10 spots into a 6 minute stop set twice an hour, you're doing both your advertisers and listeners a disservice. The spots, generally produced in-house by the station, featuring their air personalities reading poorly written copy over generic music beds, all tend to blend together and sound alike. Even worse, when the traffic department schedules competitors ads back-to-back in the same stop set! But that doesn't even matter, because once that stop set begins, the listeners have already changed to another station!

As far as the available formats on terrestrial radio, that's where I think manufacturers and ad agencies are missing the boat. The idea that 55+ can't be sold is silly. The data that proves ROI is smaller on an older market, and thus not worthwhile, is more than 20 years old, because I remember hearing it when I took marketing in College. Even if it still holds true, there is still a market out there and radio is the one media outlet that can still tap into it. Do you think the loyal Oldsmobile customer stopped buying cars just because GM stopped making them? Of course not!

 

[davideduardo]

[ The idea that 55+ can't be sold is silly. The data that proves ROI is smaller on an older market, and thus not worthwhile, is more than 20 years old, because I remember hearing it when I took marketing in College.

All the major service providers and brand manufacturers and retailers study constantly who buys and how much; the data mining at Wal Mart, for one, is famous world-wide. Everyone from the beers to the Jiffy Lube chain does research about who the most frequent users / heavy buyers are. They look for correlations with advertising, the influence of share of voice, correlation with price points, etc. This kind of reasearch is ongoing and constant.

And all, except for products specifically for seniors, find that the cost of sale vs. the margin on sale makes addressing this group unprofitable or minimally profitable. Since nearly all media has spillage into 55+, they get some exposure without paying for it so there is no interest in finding members of the media that appeal specifically to 55+.

If you look at the media that does appeal mostly to 55+, you willl see that the typical advertisers are medicines, retirement plans, insurance, etc. which require huge disclaimers... something radio can not do... and for a very limited range of advertisers.

If anything, boomers are more educated and more selective in buying than the previous generations because they are used to things like the Internet, comparison shopping, etc., and they have used such skills to decide on products that satisfy their needs and are not looking for change.

Even if it still holds true, there is still a market out there and radio is the one media outlet that can still tap into it. Do you think the loyal Oldsmobile customer stopped buying cars just because GM stopped making them? Of course not!

As the average age of the Olds buyer increased, the potential "audience" for the cars declined. At some point, the brand cost too much to maintain and was cannibalistic of other brands, like Buick, and shuttered.

Remember that radio has around 7% of national ad revenue. Radio is not a primary medium in most cases where campaigns are created spcifically for radio and other media is not used at all. Radio, except at the local direct level, is part of overall marketing programs and those programs don't include 55+ in almost every case.

 

[TheBigA]

When you cram 8-10 spots into a 6 minute stop set twice an hour, you're doing both your advertisers and listeners a disservice.

OK...let's go back to what WABC did and play two spots after every song. How's that? It's pretty clear that the listeners prefer fewer interruptions. So the trade-off is more spots less frequently. Howard Stern's audience didn't seem to mind.

The spots, generally produced in-house by the station, featuring their air personalities reading poorly written copy over generic music beds, all tend to blend together and sound alike.

Back to the ad agencies. They treat radio like an afterthought. Quite often they simply give radio the audio track to their TV spot. No question that stations can do a better job creating spots, but it requires a better partnership with the agencies and advertisers, since they're footing the bill. Quite often, those "poorly read spots" are there because the advertiser doesn't have the budget to do something that requires more talent. You get what you pay for.

As far as the available formats on terrestrial radio, that's where I think manufacturers and ad agencies are missing the boat.

Agreed. But unfortunately, there's nothing radio can do. If you want their money you have to give them what they want.

All of this that you're saying affects the product and the listener. But they're the passive part of the equation here. That's why satellite and public radio are more responsive to the listener. But in a world where content is available everywhere for free, most listeners don't see the need to pay.

The best model is cable TV, where consumers pay for the service PLUS they must watch commercials. THAT is the model broadcasters would prefer.

 

[erwin33]

I notice a slightly format change in the current WNEW format. I hear more Classic Rock and less newer rock. Somebody else also notice this?

 

[neo11]

I notice a slightly format change in the current WNEW format. I hear more Classic Rock and less newer rock. Somebody else also notice this?

I haven't tuned in, but I don't understand what they are trying to achieve with more classic rock, when there's already tons of it to be found on the regular FM dial.

 

[wrsurocks]

Yes - that is the absolute worst thing they could do if they are tweaking it, a la the old "Oldies WCBS-FM HD2", for FM launch.

Somehow I doubt that since WXRT's Norm Winer is programming the whole thing from Chicago.

I think that may be just a perception. Does Yes.com cover HD2 stations?

Also, remember that they do those old Scott Muni interviews that often tie into older songs.

It would REALLY be great to have a great-sounding AAA station with 5,000+ songs in rotation (plus plenty of digging) and some top-notch producing to boot (again...I sound like a broken record...see the specialty features/shows at www.wxrt.com)

 

[hamNcheese]

while its all speculation I ll play along...

bring back the WNEW name and make it a real Alternative. Bring in quality fresh talent that has never been heard before in the market.

 

[wrsurocks]

Contrary to your assertions, listeners DO care. The legions of loyal WCBS-FM listeners proved that.

Hi David,

Can you share your analysis of using WXRT as a blueprint for a revived WNEW? What do you think of WXRT, especially considering it strays from the mainstream of radio yet continues to attract advertisers.

Obviously the loyal fanbase is key, but besides that...

 

[wrsurocks]

while its all speculation I ll play along...

bring back the WNEW name and make it a real Alternative. Bring in quality fresh talent that has never been heard before in the market.

Yes, speculation it is. But it is educated speculation based on my background.

 

[pjc1961]

Yes - that is the absolute worst thing they could do if they are tweaking it, a la the old "Oldies WCBS-FM HD2", for FM launch.

Somehow I doubt that since WXRT's Norm Winer is programming the whole thing from Chicago.

I think that may be just a perception. Does Yes.com cover HD2 stations?

Also, remember that they do those old Scott Muni interviews that often tie into older songs.

It would REALLY be great to have a great-sounding AAA station with 5,000+ songs in rotation (plus plenty of digging) and some top-notch producing to boot (again...I sound like a broken record...see the specialty features/shows at www.wxrt.com)

When listening to WNEW.com/WWFS-FM-102.7 HD2 for a while a few nights ago, I noticed the same thing - more "classics", less "newer" material. I checked on http://www.yes.com/ and http://www.mediabase.com/whatsong/stationlookup.asp & neither one lists HD2 outlets, whether searching by station or market.

Now that WXRK, WRXP & WNEW.COM are all leaning to more "familiar" artists/material, is there any chance for a more current based, mainstream/active/AAA (even "heritage") rock outlet in New York? It doesn't appear so...finding just the right mix of material that would be great sounding, ratings grabbing, demographically friendly & financially successful seems too difficult with today's splintered audience. And we know there won't be 3 rock stations in this market for long - much less 2 of them!

Remember "The World Famous 92.7 WLIR/WDRE" (Garden City, NY)?! Dennis McNamara, Larry the Duck, Donna Donna, Malibu Sue & others-feel free to name more! A favorite among college students & young adults on Long Island-but plagued by signal problems on a "secondary/suburban" dial position, unsteady management by the Morey Family & format tweaks to an alternative/modern rock format that "dared to be different" (among other slogans)-was barely even successful on Long Island, much less New York City, however "legendary".

L.A.'s "World Famous KROQ" Rock Of The '80's alternative/modern format (started in the early 1980's) survived amidst some of the same problems that WLIR/WDRE experienced, but with ultimately a better "primary/city" dial position (106.7), an eventual power boost to a spotty signal from Pasadena, CA & (I'm guessing) a better programmed station that adapted to (I'm guessing) a friendlier market more conducive to its format, it not only survived, it thrived and at one time in the 1990's was L.A.'s overall #1 station & has become a standard-bearer for the format.

Meanwhile, remember the alternative/modern 92.3 K-Rock of the mid 1990's-early 2000's? Although riding the crest of the alternative/"grunge" movement, it was hard to tell if the station's success was entirely due to its format (marginally...) or Howard Stern's overwhelming influence on the station (of course!), even outside his morning daypart. And since the station was one of the top 2 or 3 billing stations in the U.S. for awhile, they could probably get away with ANY format & still rake it in, as long as Howard stayed there (through December 2005).

CBS Radio in Dallas & Baltimore have recently flipped an FM station to All Sports - could that be in the offing for WXRK-FM-92.3 New York "K-Rock"? Or a simulcast? Especially since Mark Chernoff is now overseeing the entire NYC CBS cluster-he's previously programmed both K-Rock & "The Fan-Sportsradio 66" WFAN-AM for separate stints.

So many possibilities for these NYC frequencies: Emmis at 101.9 FM and CBS Radio at 92.3 FM (& maybe 102.7 FM & even 101.1 FM by extension). It never seemed liked there'd ever be so many frequencies & not enough formats to go around. Just think of all the people who live in the NYC area & those who visit-you've probably heard the complaints: "New York doesn't have a country station, smooth jazz/new A/C, FM Talk, etc." Of course, it's a matter of which will be profitable in the quickest time frame. Is it possible to take time to nurture a format (probably not), or just keep spinning the roulette wheel of formats at a fast pace until the owners catch lightning in a bottle?

 

[Walter Graff]

About the closest you can find to WNEW these days is Sirius. I say this because Sirius has all the old N-E-W DJs on various channels. Today I was listening to one of the rock stations with one of the old school WNEW DJs. The station (classic rock) plays an amazing mix of rock, about as close as you get to what we remember the old NEW as, hit after hit, and songs you want to hear mixed in ways that you know the person doing it is pleased with his segues. Visit Sirius.com for a free listen and try the rock stations from 14 up. And you know what? After reading this thread and taking that into consideration today, I realized that even if they brought back the old call sign from the Florida station now using it, and amassed the old DJs on 102.7, it just wouldn't be the same. It wasn't the same today listening to Dave on Classic Rock. Yea it was that old voice talking that smooth N-E-W way, but it's over, and many attempt to bring it back would just be complaint city. It's like a relationship with a girl. You had it once and even if you ended up going back to her years later, it would never be the same as you were basing it on what was about a place and time in your life. Once time has passed the old felling can be imitated but never repeated. Sort of like listening to old air checks of WABC every year with rewind, yea it was great but that was then and eventually you just get tired of it and tune to something else.

 

[fang39]

CBS Radio in Dallas & Baltimore have recently flipped an FM station to All Sports - could that be in the offing for WXRK-FM-92.3 New York "K-Rock"? Or a simulcast? Especially since Mark Chernoff is now overseeing the entire NYC CBS cluster-he's previously programmed both K-Rock & "The Fan-Sportsradio 66" WFAN-AM for separate stints.

WFAN currently broadcasts on WXRK's HD-2 (?) channel.

 

[pjc1961]

I agree with you, Walter. As much as we'd like to revisit & recapture the past, it just can't be duplicated. Remember "Classic Rock with Classic Jocks" on WNEW-FM in 1997? Sounded great on paper - never caught on in NYC, sounded tired, in a way - Q104 was already established. Heck, even Z100 sounds a little different than August 1983 when they signed on. That initial burst of excitement when CHR returned to NYC radio is not there now, nor would anyone expect it to be. (Different animals, of course - CHR & Rock-based formats.) Just how many different ways can you dress up "Stairway To Heaven" & "Layla" after all this time? The presentation is the thing - it has to be just right. And it can't be done with the old jocks (over the air, anyway). You'd have to find "new" personalities that have the same passion about the music & presentation. Of course, the music mix has to be right, too, if you're going to do any sort of "current" based rock format (which way to lean). Even Q104 will have to evolve over time - the same songs & same personalities can't last forever.

Although, think about how much the "music radio" landscape has changed over the past 40-50 years: there's an easier chance to hear a song that's 40 years old now (on multiple over the air outlets) than there was say, 30 years ago. Many factors involved: the popularity of "rock and roll/pop music" (in the most general terms) since the mid 1950's; the proliferation of recordings that are available; the proliferation of radio stations available to play the different recordings available; the familiarity of the older songs with a larger than normal segment of the population ("baby boomers"); convergence of events: politically/socially/musically at certain times that shaped that generation.

You could make the same case for the same political/social/musical arguments for today's generation: certainly world events are as feverish today than at any other time in history. Throw in the technology advances (along with the lightning speed of changes in that technology, making some items/trends obsolete shortly after being introduced), you'd think it would be a recipe for great musical (& broadcast) advances as well. But maybe all the choices one has today to consume "music & radio" has actually brought about such a division or splintering into niches among the masses that there can no longer be a consensus, or some other galvanizing force. As another poster mentioned (on this thread or another), there will probably never be another musical event like, say The Beatles appearing on CBS-TV's Ed Sullivan Show in February 1964 with 70 million people tuning in - after all, as exciting & hyped (and good!) as they were at that moment, how much else was there to watch or listen to on a Sunday evening in 1964, given the choices that existed then vs. now? (Note: I guess NBC-TV will find out how a similar variety format will work in today's prime-time environment with the "new" Jay Leno show airing from 10-11pm Mon.-Fri. starting sometime in 2009.)

Should station owners just accept that there'll be smaller shares of the pie & learn how to "sell" those shares to advertisers better in order to profit? And work harder to nurture those "niche" stations & make them more popular/profitable over time? Or is the pressure to succeed financially (quick return on investment) just too much, which leads to a lack of patience & keeps the "format change" wheels spinning rapidly in order to hit paydirt? And does this constant change only serve to disenfranchise potential listeners, who now go elsewhere for their entertainment? Interesting arguments in tough times for radio - and other businesses, as well.

 

[wrsurocks]

After reading this thread and taking that into consideration today, I realized that even if they brought back the old call sign from the Florida station now using it, and amassed the old DJs on 102.7, it just wouldn't be the same.

Hi Walter,

That's all well and good, but the catch with WNEW is not its callsign, nor the DJs. Nor is the modern-day WCBS-FM much like the old WCBS-FM.

It's not callsigns.

It's not DJs.

It's not even specific music, really.

It's a valuable BRAND, even if that value is $1 or $1 million, that CBS could use as a springboard to launch a AAA.

NO OTHER station in New York, outside of WPLJ, can claim that. WNEW was the last great progressive rock station in New York.

The programmers at WCBS-FM knew the same thing. WCBS-FM is vastly different than what it was the first time around (only one DJ to bridge back to the old one, newer music, different specialty programming) but the brand had CACHET rather than just starting from scratch with NO BRAND and NO IDENTITY, and therefore no BUZZ in the media.

Anyone saying that a modernized WNEW would not get media attention just isn't looking at the attention they got when they went off.

And, just for the record, WXRK was throwing around the old WNEW slogan "Where Rock Lives" while doing a production piece on their programming features like "two-fers" at 2 and Led Lunch and whatnot just this afternoon.

That slogan is CLASSIC and EFFECTIVE, another great part of what the new WNEW could become.

Sounds like Mark is back in the building already.