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And People Wonder Why RXP Is Failing...

Another excellent point. It's a fashion/pop culture station, nothing more. And even if some of those "Hot Topic kids" do listen to the New York Dolls or the Ramones, you can't base a whole format in NYC around that!!!!

However, I wouldn't exactly call RXP a "AAA" format. WEHM on Long Island is much closer to what an AAA is, than RXP, which is really all over the map in terms of the rock music aired. Everything from the Cold War Kids to Led Zeppelin to Aerosmith to Linkin Park. As mentioned ad nauseum, *that's* why the station is going nowhere. It's an unfocused mish-mash that isn't really serving anybody.
 
Please provide PPM data that proves RXP is failing... i don't think you will be able to find any proof that RXP isn't rocking NYC.
 
How about you provide us with proof that RXP is "rocking" NYC. So far, there has been absolutely nothing in the ratings or in any articles published to indicate that RXP is coming anywhere close to "rocking" NYC. In fact, I seem to recall RXP not showing much of an improvement in the PPM's vs. the diaries, which obviously does not bode well for the station.
 
p_herring said:
Can we stop beating a dead horse? The station does poorly because it has no focus. How is there any incentive to listen to it when you know only 20-30% of the music being played will appeal to most people's tastes? Also, there is no point to any radio station playing the likes of 70's punk/new wave unless they want to attract the same 12 aging hipsters. Sorry, there are just no ad dollars that want to be spent to reach that demographic.

You're fine up to the "no focus" part. But everything after that, well...even if aspects are technically true, the Joe Blow tasteless jerkwater "we're all right, Jack" sneering undercurrent is disturbing. It's like a vulgar McMansion builder sneering at the loft'n'condo crowd as irrelevant marginalia; and, all in all, it's self-fulfilling, i.e. the reason why there's only those same 12 aging hipsters to you is all the rest of them have no use in dealing with your type. They bailed long ago.

And the reason why I offer that is...do a little soul searching. It's this kind of mentality which not only explains how the "radio sucks" myth came to be in the 70s, but also the radio-is-a-dying-medium spectre of today.

I mean...it is a puzzle to me, too. Why is it that NYC has never been able to support or even generate a true "modern" powerhouse a la KROQ, or, shall we say, a "post-WNEW" AAA? Given the city's white/non-ethnic cultural demographics, such concepts "ought to" have been naturals, far more so than the dunderheaded mullethead/Sarah Barracuda fodder that is, I guess, "rock as far as radio is concerned" as far as a lot of you are concerned. Maybe not to a super-duper mass audience; but at least to a satisfactory, lucrative-within-reason niche.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. My feeling is, it was a radio-industry-culture thing. 30 or so years ago, they fumbled a certain broader cultural ball out there. And it wasn't just a matter of their turning a blind eye to the new punk/post-punk paradigm; it's also that these were the last persons you'd trust handling it. Partly it was age/generational (New York radio staffing tending to be older than the norm, with lots of pre-boomers on WABC or WNEW); and partly it was raw deficiencies in taste. Like, think back to vintage shots of CBGBs or Studio 54--there's a certain timeless electricity to them, even if the fashions are dated; and even they're "dated" in such a way as to inspire successive waves of retro-tinged fashion. Compare the styleless god-awfulness of contemporary shots of radio staff, who tend to look either like two-bit Leisure Suit Larrys or John School graduates. You can just tell they were the equivalent of creaky-voiced silent film actors unprepared for the impending age of talkies.

Sure, maybe a RADIO TRUTH might have superficially tried to jazz things up with a few B52s-type adds; but judging from his attitude t/w the Velvet Underground, he was terminally out of his depth re the bigger shifts taking place. A philistine is a philistine is a philistine, IOW.

It was against this woefully square tableau that the real hip NYC music-radio gravity shifted to urban/ethnic; and even the white urban hipsters recognized it. Meanwhile, "white" music radio increasingly seemed to have less to do with NYC than with some kind of entropic NJ/LI/SI vacuumland--which probably accorded more with the trashy realm of the auditorium test and the Arbitron gratuities that the industry felt most at ease with. And then there's the matter of commercial talk radio--maybe, to detractors, the ultimate vindication of earlier radio-sucks feelings.

So, if "there are just no ad dollars that want to be spent to reach that demographic"...well, yeah. None of your kinds of ad dollars. Because "you", the industry, dropped the ball long ago. The ad dollars for that demo bailed for other parts. Or if it's still using you, it's only to bottom-feed.

The real reason RXP is failing is that it's like a 1983ish ideal radio concept that woke up from a long Rip Van Winkle slumber, oblivious to how times and circumstances have changed. The audience traits it hoped to score are now hopped up on iPod and web-based ways of consumption.

Which happens to be the new mainstream. And which is why those proverbial "12 aging hipsters", or virtually anyone who comes on here with a "why doesn't NY have an (x) format" gripe, seem like hair-shirted remnants who haven't heard the news...
 
adma said:
p_herring said:
Can we stop beating a dead horse? The station does poorly because it has no focus. How is there any incentive to listen to it when you know only 20-30% of the music being played will appeal to most people's tastes? Also, there is no point to any radio station playing the likes of 70's punk/new wave unless they want to attract the same 12 aging hipsters. Sorry, there are just no ad dollars that want to be spent to reach that demographic.

You're fine up to the "no focus" part. But everything after that, well...even if aspects are technically true, the Joe Blow tasteless jerkwater "we're all right, Jack" sneering undercurrent is disturbing. It's like a vulgar McMansion builder sneering at the loft'n'condo crowd as irrelevant marginalia; and, all in all, it's self-fulfilling, i.e. the reason why there's only those same 12 aging hipsters to you is all the rest of them have no use in dealing with your type. They bailed long ago.

And the reason why I offer that is...do a little soul searching. It's this kind of mentality which not only explains how the "radio sucks" myth came to be in the 70s, but also the radio-is-a-dying-medium spectre of today.

I mean...it is a puzzle to me, too. Why is it that NYC has never been able to support or even generate a true "modern" powerhouse a la KROQ, or, shall we say, a "post-WNEW" AAA? Given the city's white/non-ethnic cultural demographics, such concepts "ought to" have been naturals, far more so than the dunderheaded mullethead/Sarah Barracuda fodder that is, I guess, "rock as far as radio is concerned" as far as a lot of you are concerned. Maybe not to a super-duper mass audience; but at least to a satisfactory, lucrative-within-reason niche.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. My feeling is, it was a radio-industry-culture thing. 30 or so years ago, they fumbled a certain broader cultural ball out there. And it wasn't just a matter of their turning a blind eye to the new punk/post-punk paradigm; it's also that these were the last persons you'd trust handling it. Partly it was age/generational (New York radio staffing tending to be older than the norm, with lots of pre-boomers on WABC or WNEW); and partly it was raw deficiencies in taste. Like, think back to vintage shots of CBGBs or Studio 54--there's a certain timeless electricity to them, even if the fashions are dated; and even they're "dated" in such a way as to inspire successive waves of retro-tinged fashion. Compare the styleless god-awfulness of contemporary shots of radio staff, who tend to look either like two-bit Leisure Suit Larrys or John School graduates. You can just tell they were the equivalent of creaky-voiced silent film actors unprepared for the impending age of talkies.

Sure, maybe a RADIO TRUTH might have superficially tried to jazz things up with a few B52s-type adds; but judging from his attitude t/w the Velvet Underground, he was terminally out of his depth re the bigger shifts taking place. A philistine is a philistine is a philistine, IOW.

It was against this woefully square tableau that the real hip NYC music-radio gravity shifted to urban/ethnic; and even the white urban hipsters recognized it. Meanwhile, "white" music radio increasingly seemed to have less to do with NYC than with some kind of entropic NJ/LI/SI vacuumland--which probably accorded more with the trashy realm of the auditorium test and the Arbitron gratuities that the industry felt most at ease with. And then there's the matter of commercial talk radio--maybe, to detractors, the ultimate vindication of earlier radio-sucks feelings.

So, if "there are just no ad dollars that want to be spent to reach that demographic"...well, yeah. None of your kinds of ad dollars. Because "you", the industry, dropped the ball long ago. The ad dollars for that demo bailed for other parts. Or if it's still using you, it's only to bottom-feed.

The real reason RXP is failing is that it's like a 1983ish ideal radio concept that woke up from a long Rip Van Winkle slumber, oblivious to how times and circumstances have changed. The audience traits it hoped to score are now hopped up on iPod and web-based ways of consumption.

Which happens to be the new mainstream. And which is why those proverbial "12 aging hipsters", or virtually anyone who comes on here with a "why doesn't NY have an (x) format" gripe, seem like hair-shirted remnants who haven't heard the news...

Wow.

Eloquent, I guess.

Maybe it was all the 50-cent words in there, but...what was your point again? RXP sucks because times and technology have changed the way people use radio but the suits at Emmis haven't figured it out yet? It's that simple, right? (and it can be stated in one sentence....)
 
NoMoreLurking said:
Wow.

Eloquent, I guess.

Maybe it was all the 50-cent words in there, but...what was your point again? RXP sucks because times and technology have changed the way people use radio but the suits at Emmis haven't figured it out yet? It's that simple, right? (and it can be stated in one sentence....)

It can be stated in one sentence, just like a Pollock can be described as a canvas of splattered paint.

Maybe the problem with the radio universe is too much phobia t/w so-called "50-cent words"...
 
But enough of this palaver!

adma said:
NoMoreLurking said:
Wow.

Eloquent, I guess.

Maybe it was all the 50-cent words in there, but...what was your point again? RXP sucks because times and technology have changed the way people use radio but the suits at Emmis haven't figured it out yet? It's that simple, right? (and it can be stated in one sentence....)

It can be stated in one sentence, just like a Pollock can be described as a canvas of splattered paint.

Maybe the problem with the radio universe is too much phobia t/w so-called "50-cent words"...

Perhaps the 'big'n words' people experience seem to be delivered with a vituperating cudgel.
 
adma said:
I mean...it is a puzzle to me, too. Why is it that NYC has never been able to support or even generate a true "modern" powerhouse a la KROQ, or, shall we say, a "post-WNEW" AAA? Given the city's white/non-ethnic cultural demographics, such concepts "ought to" have been naturals, far more so than the dunderheaded mullethead/Sarah Barracuda fodder that is, I guess, "rock as far as radio is concerned" as far as a lot of you are concerned. Maybe not to a super-duper mass audience; but at least to a satisfactory, lucrative-within-reason niche.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. My feeling is, it was a radio-industry-culture thing. 30 or so years ago, they fumbled a certain broader cultural ball out there. And it wasn't just a matter of their turning a blind eye to the new punk/post-punk paradigm; it's also that these were the last persons you'd trust handling it. Partly it was age/generational (New York radio staffing tending to be older than the norm, with lots of pre-boomers on WABC or WNEW); and partly it was raw deficiencies in taste. Like, think back to vintage shots of CBGBs or Studio 54--there's a certain timeless electricity to them, even if the fashions are dated; and even they're "dated" in such a way as to inspire successive waves of retro-tinged fashion. Compare the styleless god-awfulness of contemporary shots of radio staff, who tend to look either like two-bit Leisure Suit Larrys or John School graduates. You can just tell they were the equivalent of creaky-voiced silent film actors unprepared for the impending age of talkies.

I've often said that if WNEW-FM had segued to Triple-A in the early '90s (a la San Francisco's KFOG, which like 'NEW had flirted with Burkhart/Abrams' "Superstars 2") instead of what they ended up doing, they'd've done just fine, and (like KFOG) they'd be a 15-20-year heritage Triple-A now. But your comment about "deficiencies in taste" is right on -- many who idealize the prog-FM '70s forget that 'NEW had to be dragged kicking and screaming into punk and new wave by Vin Scelsa and Meg Griffin. Pete Fornatale, even in '79 and '80, was continuing to build his shows around all of Richie Furay's various incarnations, and Dennis Elsas never met a wimpy singer-songwriter he didn't like.
 
Adama,

Not that I have a fear of 50 cent words but, do you have a point in that essay? I'm not trying to play the usual "radio sucks" cliche but the answer as to why RXP is failing is just so blatantly obvious that I can't believe we even have 7 pages of discussion around it. Their playlist is so all over the place that no listener really feels like tuning in. Granted, a radio station isn't supposed to please the listener's tastes 100% of time, but it should at least be over 50% (something RXP fails at). The classic rock fans will get annoyed at the cookie-cutter post grunge/pop songs (Matchbox 20, Staind, Lifehouse), the indie fans will be annoyed at the "corporate" acts (Aerosmith, AC/DC, Matchbox 20, etc.) while the just plain-old-average guy fans will really get annoyed with these "weird" and "out there" acts (Vampire Weekend, The National, Arcade fire, etc.) With all three types of potential listeners not tuning in, there's not much of an audience left.
 
many who idealize the prog-FM '70s forget that 'NEW had to be dragged kicking and screaming into punk and new wave by Vin Scelsa and Meg Griffin. Pete Fornatale, even in '79 and '80, was continuing to build his shows around all of Richie Furay's various incarnations, and Dennis Elsas never met a wimpy singer-songwriter he didn't like.

BINGO!!!!!


from last August's "How Mich Longer Will RXP stay AAA"

great post; the decided lack of energy is so contradictory to 'rocknroll', it's the energy level of the wimpy 70s on WNEW FM with Fornatele playing Judy Collins, Melanie and Joni Mitchell records and passing that off as r&r while Allison Steele did her Moody Blues concerts at nite, what a yawn fest, no wonder disco had to be invented;
and no wonder the New York Dolls, The Stooges and the MC 5 sound more vital than the 'nu musik ' being splayed on WRIP ...
 
p_herring said:
Adama,

Not that I have a fear of 50 cent words but, do you have a point in that essay? I'm not trying to play the usual "radio sucks" cliche but the answer as to why RXP is failing is just so blatantly obvious that I can't believe we even have 7 pages of discussion around it. Their playlist is so all over the place that no listener really feels like tuning in. Granted, a radio station isn't supposed to please the listener's tastes 100% of time, but it should at least be over 50% (something RXP fails at). The classic rock fans will get annoyed at the cookie-cutter post grunge/pop songs (Matchbox 20, Staind, Lifehouse), the indie fans will be annoyed at the "corporate" acts (Aerosmith, AC/DC, Matchbox 20, etc.) while the just plain-old-average guy fans will really get annoyed with these "weird" and "out there" acts (Vampire Weekend, The National, Arcade fire, etc.) With all three types of potential listeners not tuning in, there's not much of an audience left.

Though that kind of "all over the place" playlist might have actually been a prog-into-AOR norm in the 70s, so I might assume that, as with the eternal longing for an old-style Sinatra-to-Seeds Top 40 fantasy, it's misplaced nostalgia emanating from a thoroughly ingrown and divorced-from-the-present version of what such radio "could" be. Unless perhaps there's an allpurpose "magazine format" intent, i.e. if Rolling Stone/Spin/Blender can cover it all thusly and even toss a little Beyonce into the mix without drawing blood, then why not a radio station? Easier said than done.

But the deeper point re the jam radio's in today is: to me, in 2008, said classic rock fans sound like numbskulls. Said indie fans sound like numbskulls. Said plain-old-average guy fans sound like numbskulls. Ergo, the only "rock fans" with expectations from commercial radio anymore are numbskulls. Middle-aged dolts with Juno/Bristol Palin style preggo daughters who seldom refer to a Rolling Stone/Spin/Blender/Idolator/whatever axis because all those 50 cent words make their heads hurt. Everyone else has fled to superior technology; or maybe some kind of NPR/WFMU zone...
 
adma said:
But the deeper point re the jam radio's in today is: to me, in 2008, said classic rock fans sound like numbskulls. Said indie fans sound like numbskulls. Said plain-old-average guy fans sound like numbskulls. Ergo, the only "rock fans" with expectations from commercial radio anymore are numbskulls. Middle-aged dolts with Juno/Bristol Palin style preggo daughters who seldom refer to a Rolling Stone/Spin/Blender/Idolator/whatever axis because all those 50 cent words make their heads hurt. Everyone else has fled to superior technology; or maybe some kind of NPR/WFMU zone...

And to further the argument: from my deductive observation, it seems that the kinds of people who lead what I may term a "post-radio" existence tend to be more open-ended toward various musics and styles. The dark cloud of "reactivity" that's been bred through several decades of music radio tends to lift a little. They wouldn't be alienated from *any* of this RXP music, necessarily--paradoxically, they're more like the old-school Sinatra-to-Seeds Top 40 fan in their outlook.

At least, as long as the consumption is at their own pace. But the fact of its being on commercial radio creates its own alienation, or at least an inherent awkwardness--that's why an RXP (or a Jack-FM, for that matter) falls flat on its face, if the intent is to mimic such open-endedness. You can't simply shove the "post-radio" genie back into the radio bottle.

My unfortunate feeling is that in a discussion environment such as this one, not enough of you have truly grasped what the "post-radio" realm is about--and understandably so, because it might lead you into some difficult soul-searching as to why you even bother with radio (at least, commercial radio) anymore...
 
adma said:
My unfortunate feeling is that in a discussion environment such as this one, not enough of you have truly grasped what the "post-radio" realm is about--and understandably so, because it might lead you into some difficult soul-searching as to why you even bother with radio (at least, commercial radio) anymore...

Where...exactly are radio listeners down?? "Post-radio" Really?
Are you saying the ipod is killing radio?

I doubt any of us will be alive in the "post radio" days.
 
adma said:
But the deeper point re the jam radio's in today is: to me, in 2008, said classic rock fans sound like numbskulls. Said indie fans sound like numbskulls. Said plain-old-average guy fans sound like numbskulls. Ergo, the only "rock fans" with expectations from commercial radio anymore are numbskulls.

Great market segment research. Your psycographic profiling smacks of high caliber research methods.

Seriously though, I think you may have stumbled into the key challenge facing WRXP. There are basically two ways you can break apart the rock market, by age group, boomer, xer, and millenial, or, by style of the three branches of rock have existed since '67, classic album rock, modern album rock (hair metal, grunge, nu metal), and alternative (new wave, alternative, indie). My theory is that if you go after one age segment your playlist must be inclusive of all music types, and if you go after all age groups. WRXP is failling because it is going after all age group and all music styles.

It's time for Emmis to higher some consultants, figure out what the most lucaritve segment is, figure out the value proposition they bring potential listeners in that group as well as the value propostion they bring their advertisers trying to reach that segment, and develop a product that maximizes their listeners utility.
 
Hire another consultant?! Dude, there's no money left up there: people are being fired right and left, salaries are being cut, Emmis is in desperate need of immediate cash to service their debt, and it's only a matter of time before the frequency is sold to ESPN/Disney.

The geniuses running the show at 495 Hudson have running out of ideas, chances, and cash. 101.9 is toast.
 
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