ANOTHER BIG HD-AM PLUS: IT COULD BLOW UP YOUR TRANSMITTER!

[Kelly]

Well, Kelly, this IS the HD Radio board, and the sentiment often expressed here by IBOC proponents is that the interference issues could be eliminated by quickly morphing AM (and FM) service in-band to all-digital, and dumping analog. While you're right that your post didn't specifically reference that, it's easy to infer.

Your post didn't propose all-digital operation in the expanded band. You simply said AM should be all-digital by 2012. And my responses here and earlier are equally true: it's not going to happen via either avenue, HD or not, with an analog receiver population variously estimated between 500,000,000 and 800,000,000.

If terrestrial radio's going to go digital, the only sane way to do it is through interim dual operation on existing and new allocations, with a transition to the new frequencies a la broadcast TV. Since there isn't the industry interest or political will to get this done, it won't happen. So terrestrial radio is going to remain largely analog with digital simulcasts available via alternate delivery methods: the internet, and possibly through an alliance with what's left of XM and Sirius once they burn through all the remaining capital in the free world.

Well you're right about one thing Savage, this board has become the "rail against HD radio board". So perhaps we should have a new tech-based board titled "Let's Stop Complaining And Do Somthing", or "How To Fix Radio".

Maybe it makes you feel like a big man by just throwing barbs around at people with different views, or preaching to the choir with others who feel the same way, but you aren't helping with a solution. I certainly don't understand the mindset. What I DO know, is that the medium I, and most of you grew up with, is losing listeners because younger people are not interested in the poor audio quality, noise, and chatter.

And I'm sorry, putting AM stereo back on will have no effect, anymore than when it was first poorly introduced. In comparison to modern consumer devices, AM audio quality is just plain bad, blame who you will for that, but it really doesn't matter, nor does it fix the problem. I for one am tired of the blame-game regarding a failed modulation scheme.

If we REALLY wanted to do something other than fight on this insignificant discussion board, we could start by moving forward with ideas, rather than hoping to go backwards in time thinking that our impressions of "high fidelity" from 1965 still hold true today. Memories are great, and sometimes complaining is healthy, but many on this board take it to repetitive extremes.

How do you think the whole forced migration to DTV by the government idea started? One guy, Reed Hunt the commissioner at the FCC, who took the idea to Congress. If there was an idea similar to what TV is doing that could same terrestrial broadcasters from losing more market share, then I suspect the commission would carry the flag. But sitting around flaming each other, or saying the same thing over and over is a unfortunate waste of emotional and intellectual energy, by some pretty otherwise smart individuals.

 

[Tom Wells]

And once again I say AM sounds wonderful.

The radios that the masses have accquired in the last 20 years,
along with the interference - spewing junk still somehow permitted in direct defiance of pt 15 unintentional radiator rules
have given people the impression that AM sounds bad. General Motors Deldo-Delphi is THE prominent perpetrator of this,
selling cars radios with the AM so gagged that it is often impossible to distinguish words clearly.

Even the nicest furniture in the world shows poorly in a pig-stye.
And it doesn't matter whether it's digital or analog furniture, it's going to get mud and pig-waste on it.


With so much RF interference being generated locally, few people are going have luck with AM HD.
The failure of the FCC to regulate the MW band's viablility by enforcing existing rules is THE reason AM is hampered.
A sane FCC would have not even permittted the mud-box Delcos to be built and sold to the public.
As unintelligible as they are, they are a public nuisance. They'd make good communications receivers for SW or MW dx if
they had proper front ends, which they don't, so they're not worth listening to.

I know when I have a GM rental car, I don't listen to AM. It's too maddening.
I dream of yanking the radio, and finding some way to shunt the dang ceramic filter with a cap.
If I do tune around and find a local so strong they "walk through" the MW tuner, they sound wonderful if you listen
50 khz or so off freq, because it gets around the 2.5 khz brickwall.

We need a board for "Let's get this mess cleaned up!", where RF interference could be reported, along with measures taken to
mitigate the noise. In fact there should be two such boards, one for in-home sources, and another for "external sources".

Interference made by man is preventable and curable.
I reject arguments that we should just live with it, and/or develop technologies creating EVEN more noise in an attempt to
shout over the noise. Even if you get it to work today, why would you think tomorrows noise is not going to be worse?

What will the be solution then? Another 10db of square wave noise? Isn't this already being suggested?
Where does this end?

 

[Kelly]

And once again I say AM sounds wonderful.

The radios that the masses have accquired in the last 20 years,
along with the interference - spewing junk still somehow permitted in direct defiance of pt 15 unintentional radiator rules
have given people the impression that AM sounds bad. General Motors Deldo-Delphi is THE prominent perpetrator of this,
selling cars radios with the AM so gagged that it is often impossible to distinguish words clearly.

Even the nicest furniture in the world shows poorly in a pig-stye.
And it doesn't matter whether it's digital or analog furniture, it's going to get mud and pig-waste on it.


With so much RF interference being generated locally, few people are going have luck with AM HD.
The failure of the FCC to regulate the MW band's viablility by enforcing existing rules is THE reason AM is hampered.
A sane FCC would have not even permittted the mud-box Delcos to be built and sold to the public.
As unintelligible as they are, they are a public nuisance. They'd make good communications receivers for SW or MW dx if
they had proper front ends, which they don't, so they're not worth listening to.

I know when I have a GM rental car, I don't listen to AM. It's too maddening.
I dream of yanking the radio, and finding some way to shunt the dang ceramic filter with a cap.
If I do tune around and find a local so strong they "walk through" the MW tuner, they sound wonderful if you listen
50 khz or so off freq, because it gets around the 2.5 khz brickwall.

We need a board for "Let's get this mess cleaned up!", where RF interference could be reported, along with measures taken to
mitigate the noise. In fact there should be two such boards, one for in-home sources, and another for "external sources".

Interference made by man is preventable and curable.
I reject arguments that we should just live with it, and/or develop technologies creating EVEN more noise in an attempt to
shout over the noise. Even if you get it to work today, why would you think tomorrows noise is not going to be worse?

What will the be solution then? Another 10db of square wave noise? Isn't this already being suggested?
Where does this end?

More blame and discussion about the old days...great.

Tell you what Tom, go ask a 15 year old whether they care about AM radio. Better yet, ask them how it sounds, assuming they even know what AM radio is. As much as you would like to relive the past, they are the future.

If you're okay with allowing radio to just fade away like your memories of the "good ol' hi-fi days" of AM with 40% distortion, that's super. What a waste!

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

How do you think the whole forced migration to DTV by the government idea started? One guy, Reed Hunt the commissioner at the FCC, who took the idea to Congress. If there was an idea similar to what TV is doing that could same terrestrial broadcasters from losing more market share, then I suspect the commission would carry the flag.

The Commission had a great deal of incentive to poke and prod the industry toward an all-digital TV system......the $$$ the federal government could get from auctioning off the surplus UHF spectrum, first Channels 70 to 83, and now 52 to 69.

That sort of incentive doesn't exist for radio...no money to be made = inaction / benign neglect.

Much as I still love AM, David Eduardo may be right in that the band might now be beyond saving.

I'm just hoping against hope that the Commisssion will approve some sort of FM band expansion as a place where AM refugees will be able to flee to.

 

[clone]

More blame and discussion about the old days...great.

Tell you what Tom, go ask a 15 year old whether they care about AM radio. Better yet, ask them how it sounds, assuming they even know what AM radio is. As much as you would like to relive the past, they are the future.

If you're okay with allowing radio to just fade away like your memories of the "good ol' hi-fi days" of AM with 40% distortion, that's super. What a waste!

Thats equivalent to saying, "Ask a 15 year old if they want to drive a Buick or a Scion". Of course *most* 15 year olds arent listening to AM radio, but that doesn't mean that they never will. The products on AM, short of Disney, do not target young listeners. 15 year olds don't care about news/talk/local politics/personalities, etc. They want an iPod jukebox. But when they are 25, or 35, or 45 (when they will actually have some money to spend, anyway), this will be a different story. There will sometimes, not always, but sometimes be a need for local information and entertainment, especially sports/sports-talk, which can do OK with younger males, especially when they are mobile. The band isn't dead, but a combination of IBOC, interference (both local interference and adjacent channel interference), and a lack of interest by BROADCASTERS is killing it.

It may be hard for some people to accept that AM is the "Buick" of broadcasting. But it just isn't the death knell everyone in corporate radio seems to be shooting for. There is money to be made. Having Rush, the traffic/weather, or a sports announcer in higher quality isn't boosting anyone's numbers one damned bit. Accept that it is flawed logic. I don't care about the band one way or another, but it is still useful to millions of people; mature, sensible people who understand that having a reliable source of local news, information, talk, and entertainment can sometimes prove to be invaluable.

 

[Savage]

And unfortunately Kelly typifies the pro-IBOC crowd on this board (whose latest tactic is to protest "I'm not pro-IBOC!" or to try to lure IBOC critics into arguments with comments they claim really aren't related to HD - a tad hard to justify since this is, after all, "The HD Radio Board") who answer criticisms of the system doing incalculable long-term harm to radio, with attacks on the critics.

Contrary to his bitter complaint that I don't offer solutions, if Kelly goes back and checks my posts he'll see numerous instances of suggestions of how to improve the fate of AM. Unfortunately for the six or eight IBOC boosters left here none of the realistic options involve rack-mounting some dopey LED-studded box out at the transmitter and proclaiming: "radio's fixed! And I did it all with my little screwdriver!"

It's not that HD Radio doesn't work acceptably in the field. Or that it was cynically and dishonestly conceived. Or that its attendant, unavoidable interference faults pit one broadcaster against another. It's just that it's so completely irrelevant out there in the real world. And it's a massive distraction and waste of resources for broadcasters who need to focus on what really governs the future of the industry we all love (except, of course, for some IBOC boosters here who actually seem to hate AM, if not all radio.) And that is, of course....programming. But some of you just won't hear that.

I do agree with Kelly that the critics here outnumber the proponents. Well.....welcome to the real world of HD Radio.

 

[Kelly]

[EDIT]

As much as you would like to demonize me, or those who don't agree with you, I am not a proponent of IBOC, nor can you pigeon hole me into the category. I am however, interested in doing what I can to save the industry that I have over thirty years invested.

Keeping your head firmly in the sand, [EDIT], and just railing on other peoples views, does nothing more than show how small minded and petty individual you are. You appear to clearly be one of the vocal minority that somehow believe that you can make a difference in the world by posting and reading your own delusional posts.

Tell you what, enjoy posting on this little forum on how awful HD on AM, and keep that warm and fuzzy feeling that you've made a constructive difference. Especially while AM listening continues to decline. As I recall, aren't you involved with some small market radio AM station?? Yeah good luck with that in about 5 years. I'm sure your constructive and forward thinking will really benefit all radio in the future. Oh wait, your contribution is to whine and complain. Nevermind!


[EDIT-inflammatory]

 

[SUPERCASTER]

When you have no defense for a proven harmful, defective product (HD Radio) you are promoting, just launch a tirade of malicious personal attacks at the messengers.

Young people under 25 are listening less to radio and more to iPods, internet radio, podcasts, WiFi/WiMax and other new technologies. HD Radio won't change this or be the salvation for radio, only compelling content can do that.

 

[kyscott]

Tell you what Tom, go ask a 15 year old whether they care about AM radio. Better yet, ask them how it sounds, assuming they even know what AM radio is. As much as you would like to relive the past, they are the future.

Better yet Kelly, go ask a 25 year old if they care about radio. You IBOC proponents want to fiddle while Rome burns. It's not about the delivery method it's about content. Radio is losing listeners fast, yet you people want to continue to play with a system that is doing nothing to bring them back.

Jerry Del Colliano is a professor at USC and former broadcaster and he has a blog http://insidemusicmedia.blogspot.com/. Check out some of his informal research he does with his students and you find that kids today are leaving radio behind. Radio listening is down and continues to fall, IBOC isn't gonna bring them back.

 

[Kelly]

You people really amaze me with your inability to read before you type. My guess is you are also that type of people that believes in shouting down the person you're debating with, rather than listening, then talking. In the process, you end up looking like a moron. Or is it that you never were very popular back in school, so you've now found a way of being an expert on the subject?? This is an interesting study in anthropology. A good friend of mine has a PHD in the subject. She is finding your obsession with a modulation standard rather interesting. People that work in small market radio, and their inability to read or debate a topic without repeating the same drivel. An interesting small cross section of America you have to admit!

Where is it in ANY of my posts that I say that I'm for HD Radio? Go ahead and look.... I'll wait.......

See? I said on numerous posts that I am for 100% digital modulation. Hybrid doesn't work. Can I make it any simpler for your HD-phobic brains?? Hello?? Is there anyone home?? You guys can't REALLY be that dense can you??

I agree that content is king. That being said, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and it's called a train headed for the Medium Wave broadcast band. You people stuck in the 60's and 70's, don't seem to realize that your "glory" days of Amplititude Modulation are ending. Increasing levels of terrestrial noise, combined with poor audio quality as compared to modern devices, is leaving the medium in the dust.

As an engineer, I can't control the content. What I can do though is work to provide the acceptable way to deliver the content to the consumer. It does no good to just complain about some innocuous modulation standard that was never going to suceed anyway. So again, are we just going to sit here and complain about it? Oh better yet, let's just complain that nobody knows how to program a radio station, therefore we're all doomed anyway. Boy I'll bet you guy's are real lives of the party at social events! :

 

[davideduardo]

This post is just silly. The claims are undocumented, and whenever conspiricy claims are made too, I discount the claim.

If the station were operating with a mis-adjusted, or faulty antenna system causing excessive sideband VSWR, my bet is they would have a higher failure rate of MOSFETS whether transmitting digital sidebands or not.

Actually, in several documented cases, the HD exciter from one manufacturer had an issue that was not clearly documented in its manual which could cause a situation whereby modules in a Harris 50 could go from solid state to dead state. That was some time ago, and the issues have been cleared up, the exciters retrofitted and had software updated, and the transmitters are repaired.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Kelly said:

Hybrid doesn't work.

and

I agree that content is king.

Most posters here seem to agree. Most are neutral to enthusiastic about other delivery methods (wired, wireless, prerecorded, or delayed on demand), or digital transmission on other then AM/FM bands. Mixed digital/analog signals on the same AM/FM bands are the main bone of contention here.

So why do you assume that others here on the HD Radio (hybrid AM/FM) board have done or said anything to deserve your rants, tirades and malicious personal attacks?

You are setting up a "straw man", posting on the wrong board, assuming others have positions that exist only in your imagination, are modulation obsessed, are here just to vent your frustrations that hybrid digital HD Radio is not working well and not going to save radio.

Perhaps you should take your own inventory (look in the mirror) before venting your frustrations on others who don't deserve your wrath.

Kelly also said:

What I can do though is work to provide the acceptable way to deliver the content to the consumer.

So why not concentrate on that instead of relentlessly lashing out on the (hybrid) HD Radio board at people who basically agree with you?

You already agreed that:

Hybrid doesn't work.

and

I agree that content is king.

Precisely what most here on the (hybrid) HD Radio board have been saying all along.

Please find another way to amuse your friendly neighborhood PHD anthropologist. Perhaps a "How to save radio" board?

 

[Kelly]

Oh I see how this works Supercaster! The five or six of you consider this board your own little club reading each others rants about the evil HD radio, and how nobody knows how to program radio stations, blah blah. So complaining about a modulation standard that really doesn't effect your life to any substantial effect is a hobby? I get it now!

And you think you can just kick me out of your little treehouse because I present something that challenges your rant and you are unable to just pigeon hole me into the pro-IBOC camp?? Well no way Sparky! People like you are fascinating! I think I'll continue to hang out and chime in once and a while.

So just out of curiousity, how many of you in the choir are currently employed in the technical side of broadcasting, and how many are hobbiests? Also, are you passionate about other subjects, or just IBOC?

You guys are a HOOT!

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Just another vitriolic Kelly post lacking any substance or accuracy. Your posts have little or nothing to do with HD Radio, it's just pure hate speech.

Rant and hoot on. Sticks and stones ....

To quote Kelly again:

Hybrid doesn't work.

and

I agree that content is king.

Why keep attacking others that agree with you?

Very weird.

 

[Kelly]

Wow Supercaster, you used a $.35 word! I am impressed. Due to the recent degradation of the US dollar, it used to be a $1.50 word.

It's interesting, where in my last post did I attack you? Oh wait, I said something that you don't agree with, and therein attacked you! Aren't we sensitive there pooorr baby!!

And where did I say I hated you?? I must have missed that too! All the same as I either must love HD radio, or hate HD radio, at least in your world? Sort of like the old Republican mantra of you're either a Republican, or you're a Liberal! Wow, what a great way of debating something! It really takes a scholarly person to use that form of debate. "Gee, maybe if I talk like I'm not talking to him directly, he will go away and leave my sandbox!!" You are indeed a masterdebater there Supercaster!

So Supercaster, old chum, as you may, (or may not) have read, my friend the doctor frequently writes a column for Psychology Today magazine. She finds your hobby and passion to the point of obsessive rants against a limited technology very interesting. She wanted me to ask if you would you be interested in participating in a case study for one of her articles? Of course, she wouldn't use your real name, unless you wanted her to. Think of it as doing your part in educating the readers as to the interesting cross section that you exist in. Let me know, and you two can chat via phone or something.

Ta Ta!

Kelly

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I'd be more then happy to participate in such a debate. If your "PHD anthropologist" bases her article on your rants, assumptions, derisions, and false conclusions it's doubtful the good doctor can get the article past the revue board of any respectable scientific publication. At any rate, I look forward to claiming equal space for a thorough rebuttal.

 

[hipporadio]

I’ve never owned a 50kw AM rig [sorry]... But if I did, I certainly wouldn’t “smoke-it” on behalf of less-than ONE-PERCENT of the audience that consists of radio geeks and corporate radio lackeys that blew a stockholders 401k on “HD” radio... In the new regime, the latter will go to jail for such

 

[SUPERCASTER]

The HD cartel's new promo?

HD Radio - It's smokin'

 

[hipporadio]

The HD cartel's new promo?

HD Radio - It's smokin'

Feel the heat, baby!

[Hear the hissssss, dude]

God, I hate the word "dude" ;D

 

[kyscott]

I'm the Dude. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or his dudeness, or duder, or el duderino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing.