Another HD Casualty

[Play Freebird]

Looks like WYSP is about to dump its rock format to become a high power "translator" for one of the CBS Philadelphia AM stations, probably WIP.

http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=196229.msg0#new

What a shock! Wasn't IBOC supposed to perform all sorts of miracles and save the AM band?

 

[badjef]

Looks like WYSP is about to dump its rock format to become a high power "translator" for one of the CBS Philadelphia AM stations, probably WIP.

http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=196229.msg0#new

What a shock! Wasn't IBOC supposed to perform all sorts of miracles and save the AM band?

It was not going to "save the AM band".

It was obvious the first time I heard it on the move.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[satech]

If anything, WIP's own use of AM IBOC probably contributed to this move to FM, because listeners were hearing the hiss and hash and self-interference on 610, and complained of "bad reception".

 

[badjef]

If anything, WIP's own use of AM IBOC probably contributed to this move to FM, because listeners were hearing the hiss and hash and self-interference on 610, and complained of "bad reception".

You may be right. If you include the "babysitting" necessary to make sure the digital is still in sync with the analogue audio, the decision becomes "clear".

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[tomservo]

Does WYSP run HD? They may "save" the rock by putting it on HD-2. That would be more than would happen if there was no HD to offload the prior format to, so in a way, HD might "save" a format (which can then be put on a translator).

 

[Savage]

There's another more interesting implication for "94 WIP." Heretofore CBS, arguably the most ardent of HD Radio supporters because the company's executives have vested interests in iBiquity, has pursued a policy of establishing HD subchannel simulcasts for their news-talk AMs. It's pretty much SOP for CBS Radio in major markets.

During the last year it's become pretty much accepted wisdom in radioland that AM-HD is not going to fly (for all the reasons exhaustively discussed) and the dwindling hissmakers are being left on for various non-germane reasons such as contractual obligations, executive face-saving, and so forth. In fact I'm not sure AM-HD radios are even being made any more.

But is is noteworthy that WIP is apparently being migrated wholesale to a primary FM analog signal instead of its previous HD-2 simulcast. Perhaps it's a tacit admission that not even FM-HD is seen as a viable alternative for a major format (as opposed to alt-jazz, rock, ethnic, comedy?)

 

[badjef]

There's another more interesting implication for "94 WIP." Heretofore CBS, arguably the most ardent of HD Radio supporters because the company's executives have vested interests in iBiquity, has pursued a policy of establishing HD subchannel simulcasts for their news-talk AMs. It's pretty much SOP for CBS Radio in major markets.

During the last year it's become pretty much accepted wisdom in radioland that AM-HD is not going to fly (for all the reasons exhaustively discussed) and the dwindling hissmakers are being left on for various non-germane reasons such as contractual obligations, executive face-saving, and so forth. In fact I'm not sure AM-HD radios are even being made any more.

But is is noteworthy that WIP is apparently being migrated wholesale to a primary FM analog signal instead of its previous HD-2 simulcast. Perhaps it's a tacit admission that not even FM-HD is seen as a viable alternative for a major format (as opposed to alt-jazz, rock, ethnic, comedy?)

Evidence to that is how such a big deal is made when a station migrates from HD-2 to HD-1 and the move to HD-2 from HD-1 is concidered a death blow to that format when all the listeners would have to do is “upgrade” their radios to be able to receive the HD-2 or listen on-line.

It is just a flip of a switch to swap them but look what happened to CBS-FM and Jack, WBBM, and the latest with WDBO and 96 Rock. Where is Country WYNY 103.5 HD-2? Any station going to an HD-2, loses personalities and runs jockless until it is replaced - never to be heard from again.

The HD equipment then becomes a convenience item to the engineer. When given the word, the swap is made by the person in the transmitter room before the echo of the request dies.

HD-x's are the SCA of the new millenium. It is only way it will survive, and the only way to silence those who oppose the change from main channel. Such as the "Bring back ____(fill in the blank)" crowds.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[Savage]

So true, and analogous (no pun intended) to pubcasters' parking of jazz and classical music on HD subs. It's hard to miss the irony of classical music - demanding by its very nature high-quality audio - to HD-2 and in some cases HD-3s, where the bandpass/resolution is roughly the equivalent of AM. I've heard of some cases of classical music being programmed in mono.

 

[kenglish]

If anything, WIP's own use of AM IBOC probably contributed to this move to FM, because listeners were hearing the hiss and hash and self-interference on 610, and complained of "bad reception".

I don't think the average AM BCB listener pays any attention to hiss, hash, or any other type of interference any more. They just tune in for the programming. Only us engineers and radio pros care about signal quality.
That's why the FCC and the power companies have let it slide.

 

[Savage]

They may not pay attention to it, because they're not looking (or listening) for it. AM or FM, if the reception is noisy or unreliable, they don't go, "wow, that IBOC hash is terrible." They simply go away with the subliminal take-away being: terrestrial radio broadcasting stinks. They tune in the for programming. They tune out when the reception is noisy or unreliable.

The FCC and other parties have let it slide because they've been allowed to let it slide. The sliding wouldn't have happened if we had a professional, ethical and dedicated industry group representing us. You know: as opposed to the NAB, which routinely shoots itself in the foot and smashes its fingers with hammers, and sends us the bill. (Instead of making sure our listeners get a decent product, they've been doing productive things like blowing millions suing over satellite radio and screwing up a fair deal with the music industry.)

And inviting Tim Robbins to come tell scatological jokes at the NAB convention.

 

[stacker]

@Savage.

Yep!

 

[tomservo]

Whatever happened to the old canard about people willing to listen through static if they really liked the format? Does that go by the wayside now that so many people have alternative means to listen (online, satellite, etc.?)

As for letting things slide, I'm told that's the effect of the FCC being run by lawyers and not engineers anymore. Sounds about right. :

 

[badjef]

Whatever happened to the old canard about people willing to listen through static if they really liked the format? Does that go by the wayside now that so many people have alternative means to listen (online, satellite, etc.?)

A new generation of listeners not willing to put up with static. Spoiled with the benefits offered by digital sound.

People my age understand radio reception is not perfect. Those my son's age will only put up with the occasional picketfencing.

Stop at a traffic light and static in sound puch a button and the staton is gone instead of moving up a couple of inches. Can't be bothered.

Perfection or bust.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[N1WVQ]

Whatever happened to the old canard about people willing to listen through static if they really liked the format? Does that go by the wayside now that so many people have alternative means to listen (online, satellite, etc.?)

A new generation of listeners not willing to put up with static. Spoiled with the benefits offered by digital sound.

People my age understand radio reception is not perfect. Those my son's age will only put up with the occasional picketfencing.

Stop at a traffic light and static in sound puch a button and the staton is gone instead of moving up a couple of inches. Can't be bothered.

Perfection or bust.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

All the while they listen on earbuds. Sad. It doesn't have to be hi-fi, just interference-free.

 

[badjef]

Whatever happened to the old canard about people willing to listen through static if they really liked the format? Does that go by the wayside now that so many people have alternative means to listen (online, satellite, etc.?)

A new generation of listeners not willing to put up with static. Spoiled with the benefits offered by digital sound.

People my age understand radio reception is not perfect. Those my son's age will only put up with the occasional picketfencing.

Stop at a traffic light and static in sound puch a button and the staton is gone instead of moving up a couple of inches. Can't be bothered.

Perfection or bust.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

All the while they listen on earbuds. Sad. It doesn't have to be hi-fi, just interference-free.

Gets worse. It doesn't even have to be music. :'(

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[RadeoEngineer]

Whatever happened to the old canard about people willing to listen through static if they really liked the format? Does that go by the wayside now that so many people have alternative means to listen (online, satellite, etc.?)

A new generation of listeners not willing to put up with static. Spoiled with the benefits offered by digital sound.

People my age understand radio reception is not perfect. Those my son's age will only put up with the occasional picketfencing.

Stop at a traffic light and static in sound puch a button and the staton is gone instead of moving up a couple of inches. Can't be bothered.

Perfection or bust.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

All the while they listen on earbuds. Sad. It doesn't have to be hi-fi, just interference-free.

And in many cases the earbuds that come in the box.

 

[K6JHU]

Used to be "what is the separation, harmonic distortion, and frequency response". Now it is "what color is it, and how many songs does it hold."

 

[hipporadio]

Used to be "what is the separation, harmonic distortion, and frequency response". Now it is "what color is it, and how many songs does it hold."

Remember the specification battles between competing audio components in the 1970s/1980s? "Watts per channel RMS", "Total Harmonic Distortion" at numerous power outputs, and "FREQUENCY RESPONSE +/- db"? The my Pioneer versus your Sony debate was right up there with whose girlfriend was better-looking! They were practically a premise for male bragging rites beginning when one entered high school.

Today, you rarely see the latter two mentioned – let-alone bragged about; which leads me to wonder... If you measured T.H.D and frequency response/linearity of sound based on the output from a digital medium housing the typical mp3 file on a yute's hard drive – WHAT would those specs be? Folks of our ilk likely WOULDN'T WANT TO KNOW! :'(

 

[Tom Wells]

It was actually cool that in the late 70s that for a while people were becoming
technically informed in the bragging wars, AND equipment mfrs really had to compete and publish numbers.

There were many nonstandard ways to state specs, which still allowed many to be fooled.
Such as only listing total harmonic distortion instead of specifiying how much of each order.

The first spec to begin disappearing back in those days was the AM tuner spec.

I'd rather hear most of the "detrimental" noises attributed to AM than the detrimental noises I hear on FM now.
Living under a busy airport approach with 3 parallel runways makes for a lot of continuously changing multipath,
and FM reception in the car always features lots of nolisy spits and flutters now that the sidebands are iboc buzzsaws
instead of the old fashioned "empty" white noise.

 

[tomservo]

The last time I saw a (unspecified) THD spec published for something with amplifier (I think it was a budget mp3 player) the THD quoted was — I'm not making this up — 10%.

That seems to be a far cry from the 0.1% and 0.08% I saw claimed on higher end home stereos back in the 80s.

I can't seem to find any THD statistics for modern mp3 players. CNET reviewed some specs back in 2006 or 2007 and concluded that the iPods by Apple were relatively poor in some areas like SNR but great in being low distortion.

Companies with serious audio knowhow can still make small portable music devices that sound really good. Sony's unpopular Walkman players usually score near the top of the range. So does Cowin. Creative Labs players are popular (relatively speaking) and are also supposed to be very good performers. My iRiver H320, which I cherish with my life, has very good performance and even has two separate outputs (headphone - high distortion, high volume, plus a line out that is noticeably cleaner). With the Rockbox Linux-based overlaid software's multipoint EQ I can really make it sound great on headphones or line out.

It's disappointing that we have these digital delivery methods like IBOC which in theory can provide us an incredible noise floor, lack of distortion and clarity but we always bit-starve the system (HD, mp3) and run it through compromised portable amplifiers made by people who know jack about audio (Apple) into $3 headphones made by the lowest bidders in China.

(Edit: To be fair, Apple iPods do generally sound very good as long as the EQ feature is used sparingly and they're connected to an outboard amp and decent speakers.)