Another sign political talk on the way out

[mwebster]

A shock for those who equate politics with talk radio, and for those who think "ratings" mean something: WOR is dumping long-time afternoon drive host Bob Grant, a hostile reactionary in the Joe Pyne model.

Political talk is sinking. Not because people are getting tired of it (although apparently many are) but because political talk radio (like Adult Standards and Oldies) fails to deliver an audience most advertisers want to reach.

From the NY Post:
<blockquote> BOB GRANT OUT AT WOR
December 14, 2005 -- LEGENDARY talk-radio titan Bob Grant is leaving WOR next month by what is said to be a "mutual agreement," The Post has learned.

In a move sure to shock fans who made him New York's top-rated afternoon gabber for decades, Grant will do his last show of the year today, then take three weeks vacation and return for a final seven shows beginning Jan. 5.

The station had planned to announce his departure after his vacation. WOR (710 AM) will replace Grant with chef Rocco DiSpirito, who was the central figure in NBC's star-crossed reality show, "The Restaurant," and who currently does "Food Talk" in the late morning.

The move appears to be more about money than ratings.

Grant has WOR's highest share of daytime audience, and DiSpirito nearly the lowest, but food shows — like the other specialty shows WOR carries — fetch premium rates from sponsors who target specialized, if smaller, audiences. ...
Full Article (Registration Required)
</blockquote>

 

[softmachine]

> A shock for those who equate politics with talk radio, and
> for those who think "ratings" mean something: WOR is dumping
> long-time afternoon drive host Bob Grant, a hostile
> reactionary in the Joe Pyne model.
>

I thought he was dead.

 

[SquiggyFM]

> > BOB GRANT OUT AT WOR

And just how is WOR doing in the ratings now-a-days?

 

[mwebster]

A hobbyist's question

Go back and read the original post (you need to go beyond the first paragraph to get to the part about ratings).

You say radio is your "hobby." At WOR, it's a business: Not a hobby and not a popularity contest. Businesses care about dollars and cents - profit and loss.

People on this board talk about "ratings" but few have ever seen real ratings. Those 12+ numbers published online don't count. That is why they are available for free.

Reality check:
There is no Santa Claus. Your parents bought those presents.
In professional sports, selling tickets (or selling ball players) is more important than winning.
In movies, selling tickets is more important than "thumbs up" from movie critics.
In radio, sales revenue is not the most important thing - it's the only thing.
This is why most radio managers come from the sales side - not the programming side.
Banks do not cash checks or make loans on Arbitron books.


> > > BOB GRANT OUT AT WOR
>
> And just how is WOR doing in the ratings now-a-days?
>

 

[mightynine]

> A shock for those who equate politics with talk radio, and
> for those who think "ratings" mean something: WOR is dumping
> long-time afternoon drive host Bob Grant, a hostile
> reactionary in the Joe Pyne model.
>
> Political talk is sinking. Not because people are getting
> tired of it (although apparently many are) but because
> political talk radio (like Adult Standards and Oldies) fails
> to deliver an audience most advertisers want to reach.

Or, WOR is replacing Grant with a chef because if they wanted to get a politically based show on at that time, they would have to take a third-tier program, since the biggest names are locked up at other stations.

Not the best argument to claim political talk is on the way out - rather a sign at how hard it is to be a successful AM station if your options are limited. If the station's making money though doing something different, that's one thing - not EVERY AM station has to be politically-based talk.

 

[bigtalkradiofan]

Re: A hobbyist's question

mwebster,

> In professional sports, selling tickets (or selling ball
> players) is more important than winning.

You bring up some good points, but I have to disagree with you about your comment dealing with professional sports.

In professional sports, I think selling corporate advertising (TV ads, in-stadium ads, co-branded clothing, corporate luxury boxes to wine and dine clients, etc) is far more important than selling in-stadium tickets or selling ball players.

Therefore, I would contend that "In professional sports, selling corporations is more important than winning on the field."

Otherwise, you bring up a lot of good points.

bigtalkradiofan




> Go back and read the original post (you need to go beyond
> the first paragraph to get to the part about ratings).
>
> You say radio is your "hobby." At WOR, it's a business: Not
> a hobby and not a popularity contest. Businesses care
> about dollars and cents - profit and loss.
>
> People on this board talk about "ratings" but few have ever
> seen real ratings. Those 12+ numbers published online don't
> count. That is why they are available for free.
>
> Reality check:
> There is no Santa Claus. Your parents bought those
> presents.
> In professional sports, selling tickets (or selling ball
> players) is more important than winning.
> In movies, selling tickets is more important than "thumbs
> up" from movie critics.
> In radio, sales revenue is not the most important thing -
> it's the only thing.
> This is why most radio managers come from the sales side -
> not the programming side.
> Banks do not cash checks or make loans on Arbitron books.
>
>
> > > > BOB GRANT OUT AT WOR
> >
> > And just how is WOR doing in the ratings now-a-days?
> >
>

 

[FloridaBear1776]

Grant and WOR are both anomalies

This is not an indicator for the whole industry...

1. Grant is at the end of a long career. He's not a Hannity with years ahead of him.

2. WOR recently fired its program director. This move of the Food Show would seem to fit in with speculation that the Buckley heirs are about to sell.
Cut expenses, take short term profits where available. Taking off higher-rated programming in favor of lower-rated programming that brings in more bucks does work, but only in the short-term. It's like eating the seed corn. Ratings are the seed from which revenue grows. You would only disdain ratings if you're a bottom-feeder with a weak signal incapable of better performance. Clearly, WOR, a Class A heritage station with 50 kW, is not in that category. IMHO the Buckleys are just raking in the cash now to cover the tax hit they'll take when they sell the station down the road.

3. There are a few anachronisms in the business that still do the style of talk that dominated before the mid-1980s. Some are successful (WCCO, WGN), others aren't (KDWN). WOR used to be in the former category but is rapidly heading toward the latter. Wouldn't be surprised to see real infomercials pop up on its air in prime daytime hours before the Buckleys cash in. Roex, anyone?

 

[954]

Bob Grant ~ Joe Pyne

> > A shock for those who equate politics with talk radio, and
> > for those who think "ratings" mean something: WOR is dumping
> > long-time afternoon drive host Bob Grant, a hostile
> > reactionary in the Joe Pyne model.
> I thought he was dead.

Yes. Pyne died in 1970:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0701541

Grant hasn't been on the air in the Palm Beach market for years.
He was on graveyard station WPBR, I think, which is now all brokered.

Pyne was also in the movie Skiddoo, which had
this cast, per IMDB: Jackie Gleason, Carol Channing,
Frankie Avalon, Michael Constantine, Frank Gorshin,
Peter Lawford, Burgess Meredith, George Raft,
Cesar Romero, Mickey Rooney, Groucho Marx,
and Arnold Stang!

What a cast... including the 3 biggest Batman villains!
Has anyone seen it?

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[RatchetUp]

Re: Grant and WOR are both anomalies

Once again, F-Bear nails it. I was in NYC last summer and was amazed listening to WOR. Their morning show was one continuous live commercial after another. Later shows weren't much different. Still, I bet they are making a ton 'o money, but one of these days their ways will come back to haunt them.

POST article also included a quote from Bob, him sounding coy about whether or not he was really going to retire and and maybe move to Florida. Do you think any South Florida station would hire him? Where would he be a good fit?

 

[Shadow]

Re: A hobbyist's question

>
> People on this board talk about "ratings" but few have ever
> seen real ratings. Those 12+ numbers published online don't
> count. That is why they are available for free.

That's true.
>
> Reality check:
> There is no Santa Claus. Your parents bought those
> presents.
> In professional sports, selling tickets (or selling ball
> players) is more important than winning.

Not true. I have worked for major league sports teams. Every owner knows that winning drives revenue. More people come to the games. Those people eat, drink, buy crap, etc.

> In movies, selling tickets is more important than "thumbs
> up" from movie critics.

Not true. A thumbs up gives more crdibility to marketing the films. Again, more people at the theatre means mroe ticket sales, more eating and drinking, more overseas viewing, more DVD and tape sales, etc.

> In radio, sales revenue is not the most important thing -
> it's the only thing.

Well, OK. Revenue is the end all-be all. But a little secret...ratings drive revenue. Now before you go nuts with citing the WFANs and other unique stations, I know there are exceptions to that rule. But if you look at mutliple markets, run Persons 25-54 rankers by market, then run BIA or Miller Kaplans, you'll find that the station revenue rankings will look fairly similar to the 25-54 ranker. Some formats like sports/News/N/T, etc. usually have higher power ratios then urban or standards. But no one would ever deny that having more listeners (ratings) hurt revenue.


> This is why most radio managers come from the sales side -
> not the programming side.

Sometimes it is unfortunate. I don't know if this is why more PDs are not GMs. I think most sales people drive harder to get into upper management at a station. Sales people by nature tend to be more business savy with spreadsheets, marketing and closing skills. PDs tend to be more creative and artistic. (I know I'll get blasted for generalizing here.) I personally know a few great, well respected GMs who came from programming.

> Banks do not cash checks or make loans on Arbitron books.

Well, actually they do. Lehman Brother publishes twice yearly an entire book called teh Radio Report Card. They do this for analysts of public companies to help sift through the ratings in order to project revenues of radio groups. They give an A, B, C, D or F to groups based on ratings performances. Therefore millions of stock-holders dollars actually are riding ratings. Clear Channel's Less is More move this year has driven TSl which in turn has helped increase their AGQ rating across the board. They are counting on higher revenues in 2006 based on better ratings.
>
>
> > > > BOB GRANT OUT AT WOR
> >
> > And just how is WOR doing in the ratings now-a-days?
> >
>

 

[954]

What? Bob Grant in Florida?

> POST article also included a quote from Bob, him sounding
> coy about whether or not he was really going to retire and
> and maybe move to Florida. Do you think any South Florida
> station would hire him? Where would he be a good fit?

We have six full-time syndicated talk stations on the Gold Coast:

Miami:
WIOD 610 -- CC -- Beck/Limbaugh/Schnitt/Hendrie/Noory
WINZ 940 -- CC -- Almost entirely Air America plus other libs
WKAT 1360 -- Salem -- Almost 100% Salem talk blus a little brokered
WFTL 850 -- JC -- Hannity/O'Reilly/Boortz/Savage/Ingraham

WPB:
WJNO 1290 -- CC -- Like a combination of WIOD & WINZ
WBZT 1230 -- CC -- Some syndicated talk but mostly brokered. Sort of a WJNO overflow.

Then there's WPBR 1340 -- not a chain -- Brokered. With a Grant-type talker mornings, Dick Farrel. Signal doesn't reach Broward or Dade.

There's also a "hot talk" station. and a bunch of other brokered stations.

I don't think anyone would make room for him. I'd like to see him replace Schnitt, who is heard only on WIOD and WFLA (Tampa) or maybe Ingraham on WFTL or Hendrie on WIOD, both a bore.

I'd listen, at least some of the time. And I have one friend who'd be very happy to see Bob Grant here.
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[mwebster]

Re: A hobbyist's question

I think "ratings drive revenue" over-states things.
The correlation between ratings and revenue is imperfect at best.
The correlation between 12+ numbers (what most people on this board mean when they say "ratings") and revenue is weak.
The correlation between profit and ratings is non-existant.

All listeners are not created equal. You can charge a premium for certain demographic segments.

Sometimes it is good business to cut operating costs even with lower 12+ numbers.

As in "The Producers," sometimes you can make more money with a flop than a hit.
Same in sports. Exhibit A: Florida Marlins. Exhibit B (Historical): Philadelphia A's under Connie Mack (twice).

In radio: Exhibit A: Former standards stations now flipped to syndicated sports talk. They used to have more listeners. Now they have fewer listeners but more revenue.

Arbitron numbers are a sales tool. No more, no less.
(At this point, it is anybody's guess to what extent Arbitron diary numbers even relate to actual listening behavior.)

You sound like you're in the biz. Radio "fans" come on here and talk like (12+)"ratings" are the goal. No way. Profit is the goal.

>
> Well, OK. Revenue is the end all-be all. But a little
> secret...ratings drive revenue. Now before you go nuts with
> citing the WFANs and other unique stations, I know there are
> exceptions to that rule. But if you look at mutliple
> markets, run Persons 25-54 rankers by market, then run BIA
> or Miller Kaplans, you'll find that the station revenue
> rankings will look fairly similar to the 25-54 ranker. Some
> formats like sports/News/N/T, etc. usually have higher power
> ratios then urban or standards. But no one would ever deny
> that having more listeners (ratings) hurt revenue.
>

 

[jimwalsh2001]

I wish I could agree. Seems to me just the opposite is happening: political talk (more specifically, *conservative* political talk) is fast becoming the only game in town, not because it delivers well on saleable demos, but because most talk programmers couldn't think outside the box if their lives depended on it.

How else to explain, for one thing, how easily so many political hosts have been able to find work despite lacking any kind of winning track record...



> Political talk is sinking. Not because people are getting
> tired of it (although apparently many are) but because
> political talk radio (like Adult Standards and Oldies) fails
> to deliver an audience most advertisers want to reach.
>

 

[FloridaBear1776]

There are few "talk programmers"

> I wish I could agree. Seems to me just the opposite is
> happening: political talk (more specifically, *conservative*
> political talk) is fast becoming the only game in town, not
> because it delivers well on saleable demos, but because most
> talk programmers couldn't think outside the box if their
> lives depended on it.


Nowadays, with most talk syndicated, most stations outside the top-20 markets don't have a full-time program director. It's one of the hats worn by the PD of a music station in the combo.