• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Antenna Question

S

SpryGuy

Guest
I have a friend in Houston who has a LPFM. He says that he has heard several stations using a special 2 bay 1/2 wave antenna. He SWEARS that these things smoke over a full wave spaced 4 bay, single bay and a 3/4 wave spaced 2 bay. He says even though they are massively inefficient, they really saturate better than anything he has ever heard.

Can any engineer here advise me as if this is the best way to go for LPFM? One of the LPFM's I consult is wanting to better their signal via their antenna. They have a CP to raise it and while they are at it, might change it as well. Anyone know someone in the Northern KY area with the skills to mount, adjust and aim a 2-bay? Does anyone know who makes one of these 2Bay 1/2 wave spaced antennas and how much $?

Thanks for your help<P ID="signature">______________
Bill Spry
The ChoiceFM Radio Network
</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by SpryGuy on 06/12/05 12:32 PM.</FONT></P>
 
> I have a friend in Houston who has a LPFM. He says that he
> has heard several stations using a special 2 bay 1/2 wave
> antenna. He SWEARS that these things smoke over a full wave
> spaced 4 bay, single bay and a 3/4 wave spaced 2 bay. He
> says even though they are massively inefficient, they really
> saturate better than anything he has ever heard.
>
> Can any engineer here advise me as if this is the best way
> to go for LPFM? One of the LPFM's I consult is wanting to
> better their signal via their antenna. They have a CP to
> raise it and while they are at it, might change it as well.
> Anyone know someone in the Northern KY area with the skills
> to mount, adjust and aim a 2-bay? Does anyone know who
> makes one of these 2Bay 1/2 wave spaced antennas and how
> much $?
>
> Thanks for your help
>

As for who manufactures a 1/2 wave spacing antenna, any of the manufacturers should be able to do so. We had the option of using either 1/2 or full wave spacing when we ordered our new antenna from SWR. It came tuned and tested from the factory.
 
Concur on the SWR. Good antenna for the price, except for the N connector. Not enough threads on it (about 2 1/2 turns).

Of course, while a cp antenna is prefered, there is a trade off on gain, requiring either a two-bay for essentially unity gain (don't forget feed line loss, 100 watts into 100 ft of 1/2 inch with a .95 gain antenna is only 81 watts erp).

A good compromise is the trusty Scala FMV, which the FCC and Scala now insist is directional, but really no more so than any other vertical antenna. Especially if top mounted.

Many of these 5/8ths wave vertical ground planes and similar antennas are not very well built. Aluminum tubing with a match provided by an adjustable section held in place by a hose clamp. The Scala is brass, while the SWR is stainless steel. Both will hold up to many years of exposure high up on a tower.

Methinks some of the exaggerated claims of coverage is provided by goosing the transmitter output a bit. Or a larger power amplifi8er!
 
Yeah, a 2-bay 1/2 wave spaced antenna is a great choice, but you will need more power for a given ERP..

fmnostatic

> Concur on the SWR. Good antenna for the price, except for
> the N connector. Not enough threads on it (about 2 1/2
> turns).
>
> Of course, while a cp antenna is prefered, there is a trade
> off on gain, requiring either a two-bay for essentially
> unity gain (don't forget feed line loss, 100 watts into 100
> ft of 1/2 inch with a .95 gain antenna is only 81 watts
> erp).
>
> A good compromise is the trusty Scala FMV, which the FCC and
> Scala now insist is directional, but really no more so than
> any other vertical antenna. Especially if top mounted.
>
> Many of these 5/8ths wave vertical ground planes and similar
> antennas are not very well built. Aluminum tubing with a
> match provided by an adjustable section held in place by a
> hose clamp. The Scala is brass, while the SWR is stainless
> steel. Both will hold up to many years of exposure high up
> on a tower.
>
> Methinks some of the exaggerated claims of coverage is
> provided by goosing the transmitter output a bit. Or a
> larger power amplifi8er!
>
 
> I have a friend in Houston who has a LPFM. He says that he
> has heard several stations using a special 2 bay 1/2 wave
> antenna. He SWEARS that these things smoke over a full wave
> spaced 4 bay, single bay and a 3/4 wave spaced 2 bay. He
> says even though they are massively inefficient, they really
> saturate better than anything he has ever heard.
>
> Can any engineer here advise me as if this is the best way
> to go for LPFM? One of the LPFM's I consult is wanting to
> better their signal via their antenna. They have a CP to
> raise it and while they are at it, might change it as well.
> Anyone know someone in the Northern KY area with the skills
> to mount, adjust and aim a 2-bay? Does anyone know who
> makes one of these 2Bay 1/2 wave spaced antennas and how
> much $?
>
Is this LPFM in Houston??
As for antennas, gain is gain period...max gain occurs at 5/8wave spacing....but the difference between 1/2 and full wave is less than 1 db...not enough to be noticed on the air...the statement about its eff is an oxymoron...
any antenna that is not efficient cannot radiate and saturate the listening area....

For max signal vs type of antenna depends on where the station xmtr is and the land's layout over the area....If the antenna is on a hill and the listening audience is not directly below the hill, a 4-8 bay would be better....put more signal at the horizon.....if they are close in, a 2bay or 4 bay would suffice
 
Bill
The LPFM's Ive helped are all running a single bay SWR-I believe its the FM-1
antenna...
and getting Good coverage.. the tallest one is 100watts ERP at 60 feet.
needs about 243Watts TPO... The more bays Less TPO..
its a tradeoff..
Even my NCE is running the same antenna.
 
> Bill
> The LPFM's Ive helped are all running a single bay SWR-I
> believe its the FM-1
> antenna...
> and getting Good coverage.. the tallest one is 100watts ERP
> at 60 feet.
> needs about 243Watts TPO... The more bays Less TPO..
> its a tradeoff..
> Even my NCE is running the same antenna.
>

One group I built is using a 1 bay. The other is a 3/4 wave OMB 2 bay. The 2bay is getting better distance. I'm still wondering if anyone has any real world experience with a 1/2 wave 2 bay. This friend I have swears they out perform any he has ever heard. Just looking for confirmation from others before I suggest my client spend the money.<P ID="signature">______________
Bill Spry
The ChoiceFM Radio Network
</P>
 
Bill My Question is whats spec'ed out On their CP?
Yes I know I would Probably do better with 2 bays
however the construction Permit specifies which antenna and how many bays.
Or Equiv. My CP's all had 6812's Specified. But the Equiv was the SWR FM-1
It also specifed 1 bay.. I would Love to Lower the TPO and Put up a second bay
But Feel I would be In some sort of Violation.
Just Food for thought.

> One group I built is using a 1 bay. The other is a 3/4 wave
> OMB 2 bay. The 2bay is getting better distance. I'm still
> wondering if anyone has any real world experience with a 1/2
> wave 2 bay. This friend I have swears they out perform any
> he has ever heard. Just looking for confirmation from
> others before I suggest my client spend the money.
>
 
> Bill My Question is whats spec'ed out On their CP?

They recently got an amendment approved to modify their antenna and to raise it. However, they are still in the determination phase of what type of antenna to use. They are currently using a 2 bay OMB (I believe it is 3/4 wave). They may be interested in using a 2 Bay half wave. Just not sure yet. The OBM's give them heck every time it rains. The SWR goes through the roof. Not to mention that they want to absolutely maximize their signal to the best that it can be. That requires careful decisions so they don't have to cross this bridge again in the future. If anyone knows anything about whether or not a 2 bay half wave is a superior antenna design please let me know. We need real world experience.


TIA<P ID="signature">______________
Bill Spry
The ChoiceFM Radio Network
</P>
 
My CP's all had 6812's Specified. But the Equiv
> was the SWR FM-1
> It also specifed 1 bay.. I would Love to Lower the TPO and
> Put up a second bay
> But Feel I would be In some sort of Violation.

You are allowed to change your antenna without filing for pre-approval, assuming the change does not modify HAAT over 2 meters, and the modification does not change your specified ERP. You will need to recalculate TPO to give the same end result that your current license calls for. That calculation must include compensation for any increase in height. (For LPFM, more height equals less power). Once you have changed the antenna, you have 10 days to file a new Form 319 where you apply for a Minor Modification to an existing station. Then you wait for FCC approval, which may take many months. But you can stay on the air. It is a good idea to post a copy of the application next to your current license in the transmitter area, in case you are inspected.

As for what antenna to use, that has a lot to do with what you are trying to do, and where you are trying to do it. In many instances a single bay works just fine, especially if the intended audience is located nearby. On the other hand, if the antenna is on the outskirts of town, a two bay antenna close spaced (like 1/2 wave) will tend to put more signal towards the horizon and less on the ground or up in he air at the transmitter site. The same two antennas will give you gain, (or more properly stated: increase their efficiency) if you space them further apart, say 7/8 or full wave. Half wave spacing is not very efficient. You get your choice of some pattern control or efficiency, but not both. There is no free lunch.

Exactly how 1/2 wave spacing performs will vary form one antenna design to another. The best bet is to consult with various manufacturers to see what they predict their antennas will do in a real world environment. They are usually more than happy to share very detailed information about their product. If they can't or won't, I suggest finding another vendor.

Keep in mind that how the antenna is mounted on the tower will also affect performance. Usually antenna specs are measured by mounting them on a mast that sticks above the tower. If you mount the antennas on the side of a tower, you will get different results. It is a good idea to let your antenna vendor know how it needs to be mounted. They may have some very good suggestions and may be able to save you a lot of grief. I also suggest talking with the manufacturer’s actual engineers, not just a sales guy at a supply house. The engineers do this for a living. Keep in mind that you can tell if a salesman is lying by observing if his lips are moving.

I've found out the hard way that antennas seem to vary quite a bit from one manufacturer to another. Maybe you really do get what you pay for. When our station first signed on, we used a pair of inexpensive (but well known) antennas 7/8 wave spaced. They usually worked fairly well, but we did have a lot of "picket fence" problems. Even close by, there were some areas where coverage was very spotty. When it rained, our coverage went to next to nothing, although the SWR meter on the transmitter never indicated a horrendous mismatch. (Yes, the meter works).

We eventually got tired of paying the tower climbers to come out and inspect for a problem, which they never could find. The cure was two new antennas from a different, and well respected, manufacturer. They were quite a bit more expensive than our first set. And yes, they are half wave spaced. Used this way, they are not very efficient in the TPO department. While we were at it, we changed the 1/2" foam feed line, "just in case." So far they have been quite satisfactory. The "Picket Fence" effect has vanished, and we stay on the air when it rains.

Since this episode, I’ve had experience with translators that are located within the city limits of two nearby communities. Both of these use single bay antennas that are of similar design to the ones we use at the station. No weird spacing, no black magic. Just single bay antennas connected to the transmitter with 1/2" foam coax. They both do a great job

I’d have to conclude that half wave spacing can be a good idea under the right circumstances, but I doubt that it is an “instant cure all.” It you really want to get into the 1/2 wave spacing game, a better idea might be to use three or four bays, so you get gain and pattern control. But somewhere along the line, you have to ask yourself if the extra cost and complexity is worth a small change in the end result? The difference we experienced may be as simple as changing from a crappy designed, cheaply built antenna to a piece of quality equipment.

YMMV
 
> Concur on the SWR. Good antenna for the price, except for
> the N connector. Not enough threads on it (about 2 1/2
> turns).

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that an "N" connector a hundred feet (or more) in the air is just asking for trouble. An EIA flange with a "bullet" center pin that is 1/4" in diameter has to make a better connection than the little tiny center pin of an "N" connector. With an N connector, there is just not much surface area, and no matter how well you seal it, there is always the potential for corrosion.

> Methinks some of the exaggerated claims of coverage is
> provided by goosing the transmitter output a bit. Or a
> larger power amplifi8er!

You might think that, but I don't believe it is a common problem. When you realize that most LPFM stations use either a 150 watt or a 250-300 watt transmitter, they really can't go very far out of bounds. It's pretty well self regulating. A single bay antenna is going to need roughly 200 watts to deliver an ERP of 100 watts. 120 feet of feed line will soak up in the vicinity of an additional 30 watts. You can legally run at 105% of licensed power, so in that case 241.5 watts TPO would be legal. An extra 8.5 watts would be a negligible change in field strength.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen. Maybe somebody does have a four bay array being fed by a 300 watt transmitter, but I suspect they are few and far between. Most LPFMs' simply don't have the money to do that.

On the other hand, I did see an ad a few months ago in Radio World for a slightly used BEXT 1 KW FM transmitter. The ad said "too large for our LPFM station." No kidding. There was also a multi bay antenna for sale in the same issue that had the same return address and phone number. Hmmm.....
 
While I have plenty of Real-World experience (owner/operator of a Broadcast Engineering Company)...and have put up several 2-bay 1/2-wave spaced antennas for LPFM and Translator use...I can say for sure that there' no magic fix-all by going to that antenna design. You really need a good consultant with antenna experience to evaluate your situation. I recently built an LPFM on the outskirts of town. The height on the CP was 100 ft. above average terrain...which translated to 33 ft. above ground level. We decided to go with a 2-bay 1/2 wave antenna because we were on the edge of town trying to push our signal in the center of town. Now the opportunity has come up for us to move the transmitter site to around 175 ft. above average terrain in the center of town. When this happens we will change the antenna to a single-bay. Antenna selection is very dependant on terrain, height, etc...and there is no perfect solution for every instance. In our case, the 2-bay 1/2 wave antenna we used was manufactured by SWR. ERI, Dielectric, Shivley, and Jampro are several other well-respected manufactures. I would stay away from Nicom, OMB, etc...while they can be fine for a temporary situation or a REALLY tight budget...they're NOT gonna perform like one of the major brand antennas. Hope this helps. Call Bob Groome at Jampro (916-383-1177), he is very knowledgeable in antenna design and selection. He would be more than happy to speak with you. As far as where to purchase the antennas, check with RF Specialties (www.rfspec.com). They have offices all over the country and have many salesfolk willing to talk to you.

-Chris Hall
www.reelaudio.net
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom