I have a Boston Acoustics Receptor HD. Sitting 12 miles south of one large market. 35 miles north of another. I'd like to hear both markets if possible. Right now I'm having trouble pulling in the HD2 to one of the class B signals 12 miles north. Almost impossible to hear the HD2 on a class A from that same tower. Most of the HDs are a no show from 35 miles south although it tries to match up with the HD signal on a pair of them. Nothing on any of the AMs although the tower for one is only 15 miles south. In a rental home so not inclined to add an outdoor antenna. Tried a Terk Tower with no success. Any suggestions on what will help capture those HD signals. Please and thank you.
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Antenna suggestions please
- Thread starter brian_stevens
- Start date
> I have a Boston Acoustics Receptor HD. Sitting 12 miles
> south of one large market. 35 miles north of another. I'd
> like to hear both markets if possible. Right now I'm having
> trouble pulling in the HD2 to one of the class B signals 12
> miles north. Almost impossible to hear the HD2 on a class A
> from that same tower. Most of the HDs are a no show from 35
> miles south although it tries to match up with the HD signal
> on a pair of them. Nothing on any of the AMs although the
> tower for one is only 15 miles south. In a rental home so
> not inclined to add an outdoor antenna. Tried a Terk Tower
> with no success. Any suggestions on what will help capture
> those HD signals. Please and thank you.
Has anyone tried the C. Crane FM Reflect antenna? This may be the answer, but I don't have any first-hand experience with it so I'm not sure if it works as advertised.
> south of one large market. 35 miles north of another. I'd
> like to hear both markets if possible. Right now I'm having
> trouble pulling in the HD2 to one of the class B signals 12
> miles north. Almost impossible to hear the HD2 on a class A
> from that same tower. Most of the HDs are a no show from 35
> miles south although it tries to match up with the HD signal
> on a pair of them. Nothing on any of the AMs although the
> tower for one is only 15 miles south. In a rental home so
> not inclined to add an outdoor antenna. Tried a Terk Tower
> with no success. Any suggestions on what will help capture
> those HD signals. Please and thank you.
Has anyone tried the C. Crane FM Reflect antenna? This may be the answer, but I don't have any first-hand experience with it so I'm not sure if it works as advertised.
> > I have a Boston Acoustics Receptor HD. Sitting 12 miles
> > south of one large market. 35 miles north of another. I'd
> > like to hear both markets if possible. Right now I'm
> having
> > trouble pulling in the HD2 to one of the class B signals
> 12
> > miles north. Almost impossible to hear the HD2 on a class
> A
> > from that same tower. Most of the HDs are a no show from
> 35
> > miles south although it tries to match up with the HD
> signal
> > on a pair of them. Nothing on any of the AMs although the
> > tower for one is only 15 miles south. In a rental home so
> > not inclined to add an outdoor antenna. Tried a Terk Tower
>
> > with no success. Any suggestions on what will help capture
>
> > those HD signals. Please and thank you.
>
> Has anyone tried the C. Crane FM Reflect antenna? This may
> be the answer, but I don't have any first-hand experience
> with it so I'm not sure if it works as advertised.
>
I'm not an engineer and this may sound like a dumb question, but isn't that "Reflect Antenna" just a typical dipole loop antenna that can be purchased at Radio Shack for under $5?
> > south of one large market. 35 miles north of another. I'd
> > like to hear both markets if possible. Right now I'm
> having
> > trouble pulling in the HD2 to one of the class B signals
> 12
> > miles north. Almost impossible to hear the HD2 on a class
> A
> > from that same tower. Most of the HDs are a no show from
> 35
> > miles south although it tries to match up with the HD
> signal
> > on a pair of them. Nothing on any of the AMs although the
> > tower for one is only 15 miles south. In a rental home so
> > not inclined to add an outdoor antenna. Tried a Terk Tower
>
> > with no success. Any suggestions on what will help capture
>
> > those HD signals. Please and thank you.
>
> Has anyone tried the C. Crane FM Reflect antenna? This may
> be the answer, but I don't have any first-hand experience
> with it so I'm not sure if it works as advertised.
>
I'm not an engineer and this may sound like a dumb question, but isn't that "Reflect Antenna" just a typical dipole loop antenna that can be purchased at Radio Shack for under $5?
> I'm not an engineer and this may sound like a dumb question,
> but isn't that "Reflect Antenna" just a typical dipole loop
> antenna that can be purchased at Radio Shack for under $5?
From this view, it looks like the FM Reflect is made out of heavy-duty coaxial cable instead of the 300-ohm wire used in a basic dipole. From what I've been reading on different sites, some people say it does work as advertised.
> but isn't that "Reflect Antenna" just a typical dipole loop
> antenna that can be purchased at Radio Shack for under $5?
From this view, it looks like the FM Reflect is made out of heavy-duty coaxial cable instead of the 300-ohm wire used in a basic dipole. From what I've been reading on different sites, some people say it does work as advertised.
> I have a Boston Acoustics Receptor HD. Sitting 12 miles
> south of one large market. 35 miles north of another. I'd
> like to hear both markets if possible. Right now I'm having
> trouble pulling in the HD2 to one of the class B signals 12
> miles north. Almost impossible to hear the HD2 on a class A
> from that same tower. Most of the HDs are a no show from 35
> miles south although it tries to match up with the HD signal
> on a pair of them. Nothing on any of the AMs although the
> tower for one is only 15 miles south. In a rental home so
> not inclined to add an outdoor antenna. Tried a Terk Tower
> with no success. Any suggestions on what will help capture
> those HD signals. Please and thank you.
>
The HD digital AM signal is required by the NRSC-5a mask and proposed FCC standards to be at least -28 db below the maximum carrier power. This converts to about 1.5 watts for each 1000 watts of station analog carrier power. Coverage beyond a few miles from the stations transmitter is almost impossible, as the signal gets buried below the ambient noise level very quickly. Digging out a signal from below the noise level reliably, is difficult if not impossible.
However, because of the destructive digital waveform is on adjacent channels, it can easily interfere with stations many miles away.
http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com/
http://commonsensesolutions.blogspot.com/
> south of one large market. 35 miles north of another. I'd
> like to hear both markets if possible. Right now I'm having
> trouble pulling in the HD2 to one of the class B signals 12
> miles north. Almost impossible to hear the HD2 on a class A
> from that same tower. Most of the HDs are a no show from 35
> miles south although it tries to match up with the HD signal
> on a pair of them. Nothing on any of the AMs although the
> tower for one is only 15 miles south. In a rental home so
> not inclined to add an outdoor antenna. Tried a Terk Tower
> with no success. Any suggestions on what will help capture
> those HD signals. Please and thank you.
>
The HD digital AM signal is required by the NRSC-5a mask and proposed FCC standards to be at least -28 db below the maximum carrier power. This converts to about 1.5 watts for each 1000 watts of station analog carrier power. Coverage beyond a few miles from the stations transmitter is almost impossible, as the signal gets buried below the ambient noise level very quickly. Digging out a signal from below the noise level reliably, is difficult if not impossible.
However, because of the destructive digital waveform is on adjacent channels, it can easily interfere with stations many miles away.
http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com/
http://commonsensesolutions.blogspot.com/
K
k9ez
Guest
Uhhh, no
Again, you obvisouly have no real world experience with HD Radio. If you did you would know how far an HD signal can carry. Perhaps you need to stop reading the bloggers with your happy ears.
Also, if you knew anything about digital, it has the ability to pull a signal out of the noise. If you read up about how CDMA works you would be very surprised at how the system works and how little power is used.
For your information I listened to an HD2 station out of Chicago (WJMK) for about 120 miles as drove through there. It gave me over 2 hours of great programming (no I dont work for that station).
> The HD digital AM signal is required by the NRSC-5a mask and
> proposed FCC standards to be at least -28 db below the
> maximum carrier power. This converts to about 1.5 watts for
> each 1000 watts of station analog carrier power. Coverage
> beyond a few miles from the stations transmitter is almost
> impossible, as the signal gets buried below the ambient
> noise level very quickly. Digging out a signal from below
> the noise level reliably, is difficult if not impossible.
> However, because of the destructive digital waveform is on
> adjacent channels, it can easily interfere with stations
> many miles away.
> http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com/
> http://commonsensesolutions.blogspot.com/
>
Again, you obvisouly have no real world experience with HD Radio. If you did you would know how far an HD signal can carry. Perhaps you need to stop reading the bloggers with your happy ears.
Also, if you knew anything about digital, it has the ability to pull a signal out of the noise. If you read up about how CDMA works you would be very surprised at how the system works and how little power is used.
For your information I listened to an HD2 station out of Chicago (WJMK) for about 120 miles as drove through there. It gave me over 2 hours of great programming (no I dont work for that station).
> The HD digital AM signal is required by the NRSC-5a mask and
> proposed FCC standards to be at least -28 db below the
> maximum carrier power. This converts to about 1.5 watts for
> each 1000 watts of station analog carrier power. Coverage
> beyond a few miles from the stations transmitter is almost
> impossible, as the signal gets buried below the ambient
> noise level very quickly. Digging out a signal from below
> the noise level reliably, is difficult if not impossible.
> However, because of the destructive digital waveform is on
> adjacent channels, it can easily interfere with stations
> many miles away.
> http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com/
> http://commonsensesolutions.blogspot.com/
>
> > I'm not an engineer and this may sound like a dumb
> question,
> > but isn't that "Reflect Antenna" just a typical dipole
> loop
> > antenna that can be purchased at Radio Shack for under $5?
>
>
> From this view, it looks like the FM Reflect is made out of
> heavy-duty coaxial cable instead of the 300-ohm wire used in
> a basic dipole. From what I've been reading on different
> sites, some people say it does work as advertised.
>
Don't bother with improved diapoles. Go get yourself a REAL antenna like a Antennacraft of Channelmaster Yagi with at LEAST 10 elements or more. You need some gain to get FM DX. Trust me, you'll be happy you took the effort to put up a real antenna, if you can. FM radio is good for 250 miles or more on a full C just from scatter. If the conditions are right, you'll get even further than that. I don't have any experience with IBOC, so I can't tell you more about that part, however, a good antenna HAS to work better than just a diapole inside your home.
> question,
> > but isn't that "Reflect Antenna" just a typical dipole
> loop
> > antenna that can be purchased at Radio Shack for under $5?
>
>
> From this view, it looks like the FM Reflect is made out of
> heavy-duty coaxial cable instead of the 300-ohm wire used in
> a basic dipole. From what I've been reading on different
> sites, some people say it does work as advertised.
>
Don't bother with improved diapoles. Go get yourself a REAL antenna like a Antennacraft of Channelmaster Yagi with at LEAST 10 elements or more. You need some gain to get FM DX. Trust me, you'll be happy you took the effort to put up a real antenna, if you can. FM radio is good for 250 miles or more on a full C just from scatter. If the conditions are right, you'll get even further than that. I don't have any experience with IBOC, so I can't tell you more about that part, however, a good antenna HAS to work better than just a diapole inside your home.
K
k9ez
Guest
> > > I'm not an engineer and this may sound like a dumb
> > question,
> > > but isn't that "Reflect Antenna" just a typical dipole
> > loop
> > > antenna that can be purchased at Radio Shack for under
> $5?
> >
> >
> > From this view, it looks like the FM Reflect is made out
> of
> > heavy-duty coaxial cable instead of the 300-ohm wire used
> in
> > a basic dipole. From what I've been reading on different
> > sites, some people say it does work as advertised.
> >
>
> Don't bother with improved diapoles. Go get yourself a REAL
> antenna like a Antennacraft of Channelmaster Yagi with at
> LEAST 10 elements or more. You need some gain to get FM DX.
> Trust me, you'll be happy you took the effort to put up a
> real antenna, if you can. FM radio is good for 250 miles or
> more on a full C just from scatter. If the conditions are
> right, you'll get even further than that. I don't have any
> experience with IBOC, so I can't tell you more about that
> part, however, a good antenna HAS to work better than just a
> diapole inside your home.
>
Indeed and those "powered" rabbit ear things are a waste of time as well. Heck, an out VHF TV antenna will work just fine.
> > question,
> > > but isn't that "Reflect Antenna" just a typical dipole
> > loop
> > > antenna that can be purchased at Radio Shack for under
> $5?
> >
> >
> > From this view, it looks like the FM Reflect is made out
> of
> > heavy-duty coaxial cable instead of the 300-ohm wire used
> in
> > a basic dipole. From what I've been reading on different
> > sites, some people say it does work as advertised.
> >
>
> Don't bother with improved diapoles. Go get yourself a REAL
> antenna like a Antennacraft of Channelmaster Yagi with at
> LEAST 10 elements or more. You need some gain to get FM DX.
> Trust me, you'll be happy you took the effort to put up a
> real antenna, if you can. FM radio is good for 250 miles or
> more on a full C just from scatter. If the conditions are
> right, you'll get even further than that. I don't have any
> experience with IBOC, so I can't tell you more about that
> part, however, a good antenna HAS to work better than just a
> diapole inside your home.
>
Indeed and those "powered" rabbit ear things are a waste of time as well. Heck, an out VHF TV antenna will work just fine.
> > I'm not an engineer and this may sound like a dumb
> question,
> > but isn't that "Reflect Antenna" just a typical dipole
> loop
> > antenna that can be purchased at Radio Shack for under $5?
>
>
> From this view, it looks like the FM Reflect is made out of
> heavy-duty coaxial cable instead of the 300-ohm wire used in
> a basic dipole. From what I've been reading on different
> sites, some people say it does work as advertised.
>
Everything from CCrane works "as advertised" That's part of their business model.
> question,
> > but isn't that "Reflect Antenna" just a typical dipole
> loop
> > antenna that can be purchased at Radio Shack for under $5?
>
>
> From this view, it looks like the FM Reflect is made out of
> heavy-duty coaxial cable instead of the 300-ohm wire used in
> a basic dipole. From what I've been reading on different
> sites, some people say it does work as advertised.
>
Everything from CCrane works "as advertised" That's part of their business model.
Re: Antenna Updates
Thanks to all who replied to my question.
First of all, my mistake on the AM. I was under the impression that WLW was already in HD. I've read since that they're still not. Report to follow when they fire up their HD side.
As for AM reception with the Boston Acoustics Recepter HD? I've since pulled in WOWO and WIBC with the included AM antenna. Both at about 115 miles away. Sweet.
FM? On Sunday I stumbled across an long unused amplified FM antenna in the garage and hooked it up. I'm now pulling the 35 mile distant Cinti FM HD2s in with no trouble.
As for comments regarding the "sound" of the Recepter. I've spent some time with the internal audio settings. While I don't intend to start a "how to hack my HD" thread, I will say that it is more than simple for anyone to adjust the audio of the Recepter to overcome any complaints.
And for Supersound...I'd appreciate it if you cut and paste this one into your blog too. Thanks!
Thanks to all who replied to my question.
First of all, my mistake on the AM. I was under the impression that WLW was already in HD. I've read since that they're still not. Report to follow when they fire up their HD side.
As for AM reception with the Boston Acoustics Recepter HD? I've since pulled in WOWO and WIBC with the included AM antenna. Both at about 115 miles away. Sweet.
FM? On Sunday I stumbled across an long unused amplified FM antenna in the garage and hooked it up. I'm now pulling the 35 mile distant Cinti FM HD2s in with no trouble.
As for comments regarding the "sound" of the Recepter. I've spent some time with the internal audio settings. While I don't intend to start a "how to hack my HD" thread, I will say that it is more than simple for anyone to adjust the audio of the Recepter to overcome any complaints.
And for Supersound...I'd appreciate it if you cut and paste this one into your blog too. Thanks!
> Don't bother with improved diapoles. Go get yourself a REAL
> antenna like a Antennacraft of Channelmaster Yagi with at
> LEAST 10 elements or more. You need some gain to get FM DX.
> Trust me, you'll be happy you took the effort to put up a
> real antenna, if you can. FM radio is good for 250 miles or
> more on a full C just from scatter. If the conditions are
> right, you'll get even further than that. I don't have any
> experience with IBOC, so I can't tell you more about that
> part, however, a good antenna HAS to work better than just a
> diapole inside your home.
That would be my suggestion. Same as for OTA HDTV. The Boston Acoustics has a coax antenna input. I have the analog version and use the FM section of the HDTV antenna to feed it. Even strong signals don't overload the front end. However, add a rotor to the yagi unless every station is in the same direction.
My experience with IBUZ has been less with multipath than with low signal levels. On AM your receiver will indicate HD long before it actually receives it. I got an HD indication of WOR-HD a little South of Hartford but no HD signal. Tom Ray, Buckley Radio's Director of Engineering, told me that's often the case. The same was true with WBZ-HD until I drove to the top of Mt. Tom where I got an HD signal. WBZ is the best HD audio quality AM signal I've received, yet. WTAG, Worcester, MA, was in HD but annoyingly processed.
The problem with WBZ is that it blots out adjacent channels. You can hear it clearly on the East Coast between about 4-6pm. KDKA at 1020 is unreceivable until 6pm when WBZ turns IBUZ off. Admittedly, I'm well beyond both stations protected contours, so I have no right, according to some, to expect to receive either one. I can also receive WLW once the WOR IBUZ is turned off. On the East Coast 4:30 to 6PM is nighttime propagation in Winter.
Since many AM installations will require significant modification (some claim the IBUZ signal doesn't obey the same directional rules as analog). I've proposed the FCC allow IBUZ operation 24/7 immediately so stations can determine what modifications will be required. I've also proposed that anyone who modifies their transmitter plant be given priority when others interfere. It's unfair to require a station to repeatedly modify its plant as new stations light up.
DTV found serious problems finding DTV sites, riggers and equipment in time to meet the original deadline. If we wait for AM IBUZ to be fully implemented we'll risk losing significant audience as stations try and fix the problem all at once. IF AM IBUZ isn't a problem, there's no reason to prohibit nighttime operation. There are very few AM stations operating IBUZ. Now is the time to deal with the issue one station at a time.
Both AM and FM IBUZ are going to happen, no matter what. While I believe it's greatly flawed, the marketing is amateurish and the content is uninspired to the point of discouraging listeners to purchase receivers, I think we need to do what we can not to destroy the signals of smaller broadcasters who either can't afford or don't believe in the system. I know many companies who have no interest in installing the equipment.
Listeners will disappear much faster than repairs can be made.
Rich
> antenna like a Antennacraft of Channelmaster Yagi with at
> LEAST 10 elements or more. You need some gain to get FM DX.
> Trust me, you'll be happy you took the effort to put up a
> real antenna, if you can. FM radio is good for 250 miles or
> more on a full C just from scatter. If the conditions are
> right, you'll get even further than that. I don't have any
> experience with IBOC, so I can't tell you more about that
> part, however, a good antenna HAS to work better than just a
> diapole inside your home.
That would be my suggestion. Same as for OTA HDTV. The Boston Acoustics has a coax antenna input. I have the analog version and use the FM section of the HDTV antenna to feed it. Even strong signals don't overload the front end. However, add a rotor to the yagi unless every station is in the same direction.
My experience with IBUZ has been less with multipath than with low signal levels. On AM your receiver will indicate HD long before it actually receives it. I got an HD indication of WOR-HD a little South of Hartford but no HD signal. Tom Ray, Buckley Radio's Director of Engineering, told me that's often the case. The same was true with WBZ-HD until I drove to the top of Mt. Tom where I got an HD signal. WBZ is the best HD audio quality AM signal I've received, yet. WTAG, Worcester, MA, was in HD but annoyingly processed.
The problem with WBZ is that it blots out adjacent channels. You can hear it clearly on the East Coast between about 4-6pm. KDKA at 1020 is unreceivable until 6pm when WBZ turns IBUZ off. Admittedly, I'm well beyond both stations protected contours, so I have no right, according to some, to expect to receive either one. I can also receive WLW once the WOR IBUZ is turned off. On the East Coast 4:30 to 6PM is nighttime propagation in Winter.
Since many AM installations will require significant modification (some claim the IBUZ signal doesn't obey the same directional rules as analog). I've proposed the FCC allow IBUZ operation 24/7 immediately so stations can determine what modifications will be required. I've also proposed that anyone who modifies their transmitter plant be given priority when others interfere. It's unfair to require a station to repeatedly modify its plant as new stations light up.
DTV found serious problems finding DTV sites, riggers and equipment in time to meet the original deadline. If we wait for AM IBUZ to be fully implemented we'll risk losing significant audience as stations try and fix the problem all at once. IF AM IBUZ isn't a problem, there's no reason to prohibit nighttime operation. There are very few AM stations operating IBUZ. Now is the time to deal with the issue one station at a time.
Both AM and FM IBUZ are going to happen, no matter what. While I believe it's greatly flawed, the marketing is amateurish and the content is uninspired to the point of discouraging listeners to purchase receivers, I think we need to do what we can not to destroy the signals of smaller broadcasters who either can't afford or don't believe in the system. I know many companies who have no interest in installing the equipment.
Listeners will disappear much faster than repairs can be made.
Rich
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