Any 50,000 Watt AM Stations in Florida?

[Icangelp]

If you keep at it you should be able to pick up the Largo 50KW on 820 at sunset right before it powers down. I don't check for it every evening but it has been there for a short period and sometimes with a reasonabally strong signal. I hear it on the way home from work with an omnidirectional car antenna, Obviously I can't check the actual signal strength.

P.S. I've been hearing 850/KOA in the morning between 6 and 6:30 eastern time. Nice to hear them again. Fades in and out as you might expect.

 

[Ai4i]

I hear it...

"From here in" or "from here at"
Where are you?

 

[gar hi]

I live in Tampa now but grew up in New Jersey and I first discovered Am DXing in the early 70s. The family took a vacation down to Miami in the spring of 73 and when we got back home, I wanted to see what I could pick up from Florida, even if they weren't 50kw. I lived right outside Philadelphia at the time, so 610 WIOD was out of the question because WIP from Philly was on the same frequency. No luck either with the Miami music sataion at the time, the then 790 WFUN. However, we were down at the shore one day and just before sunset WFUN 790 came in real good for a short time but then it was lost. Many years later, I remember scanning the AM band up in Bethlehem, Pa (about 50 mi north of Philadelphia) and I heard WIOD along side a weak WIP signal. I later moved down to Tampa and remember DXing on my Sony AM Stereo walkman on my first visit home for Christmas. I was real surprised but I actually heard WRBQ 1380 from Tampa/St. Pete one day right when it was getting dark! They are only a 5kw station but I think I picked them up while they were still on their daytime non-directional mode because the signal suddenly went away in an instant. Strange thing is that 1380 has very weak reception at night from where I live in Tampa.

 

[Ai4i]

Strange thing is that 1380 has very weak reception at night from where I live in Tampa.

Something we now enjoy that was not available back in the day is Radio-Locator.com.

 

[dwtpa97]

As someone who grew up in Tampa, I recall that when WGTO first went on the air in the late 1950s from Cypress Gardens, they advertised extensively in the Tampa newspapers, playing up the "GTO" part of their call letters as radio "from the Gulf To the Ocean". In those days, because there was no competition on 540, they had a great signal into Tampa and St. Pete. The signal is much poorer nowadays, perhaps as a result of their tower relocation.

 

[jmtillery]

As someone who grew up in Tampa, I recall that when WGTO first went on the air in the late 1950s from Cypress Gardens, they advertised extensively in the Tampa newspapers, playing up the "GTO" part of their call letters as radio "from the Gulf To the Ocean". In those days, because there was no competition on 540, they had a great signal into Tampa and St. Pete. The signal is much poorer nowadays, perhaps as a result of their tower relocation.

The tower site move is exactly why AM 540 has less reception in the Tampa Bay area. Although the signal is still 50kw, the original tower site was located just outside of Winter Haven; much closer to Tampa. The new tower site is located South of Clermont and diplexed on the WYGM-AM 740 towers. This resulted in a gained city grade signal over Orlando, but a diminished signal over the Bay area.

Mark Tillery
www.jmtillery.com

 

[stonecold49]

I wish there were more 50,000 watt AM stations in Florida, however, the FCC would only allow them near large
metro areas like Miami, Orlando, Jacksonville, North, Central and South Florida due to population serving the general public. I would think that Pensacola should warrant a larger AM signal but only WCOA which is 5KW day and perhaps 1KW at night, can't hear it anywhere but downtown Pensacola although in the
60's (before deregulation and Clinton)you could hear WCOA along the beaches in Destin/South Walton at night but not anymore. Same goes for New Orleans stations WTIX, WNOE, WWL, you could hear them day and night 30-40 years ago but now the AM band is so cluttered with noise from Mexico/South America it's
pathetic. The Breeze, 590 in Panama City is the only thing to hear from Bay to Escambia and it's not always
clear (but is a clear channel property) and has Stardust nostalgia 50's60's not all the hits. We desparately need to get AM digital, block the foreign signals, and get back to good old rock and roll (cut out the talk) remember the days of WNUE, WGNE, WBSR, and if we could listen to the big 50K blowtorches at night like
WLS Chicago, WLAC, WHAS, WWL, and if you went north, WABC, NY, WKBW, Buffalo and WBZ Boston.

 

[jmtillery]

I wish there were more 50,000 watt AM stations in Florida, however, the FCC would only allow them near large
metro areas like Miami, Orlando, Jacksonville, North, Central and South Florida due to population serving the general public. I would think that Pensacola should warrant a larger AM signal but only WCOA which is 5KW day and perhaps 1KW at night, can't hear it anywhere but downtown Pensacola although in the
60's (before deregulation and Clinton)you could hear WCOA along the beaches in Destin/South Walton at night but not anymore. Same goes for New Orleans stations WTIX, WNOE, WWL, you could hear them day and night 30-40 years ago but now the AM band is so cluttered with noise from Mexico/South America it's
pathetic. The Breeze, 590 in Panama City is the only thing to hear from Bay to Escambia and it's not always
clear (but is a clear channel property) and has Stardust nostalgia 50's60's not all the hits. We desparately need to get AM digital, block the foreign signals, and get back to good old rock and roll (cut out the talk) remember the days of WNUE, WGNE, WBSR, and if we could listen to the big 50K blowtorches at night like
WLS Chicago, WLAC, WHAS, WWL, and if you went north, WABC, NY, WKBW, Buffalo and WBZ Boston.

WCOA is 5kw unlimited; DA-N - meaning it is 5,000 watts day and also 5,000 watts night with a directional South night pattern.

Regarding the 50kw AMs in large metropolitan areas, the FCC considers any class station in any location so long as 1) the frequency and proposed power levels fit without causing objectionable interference to another station; 2) it meets the public interest rule, meaning the proposed City of License is undeserved by local radio and it would be in the public interest to authorize the new facility; and, 3) the applicant is legally and financially qualified to build/own/operate the new facility.

To put it another way, if a new 50kw AM will fit in a small rural town, miles away from any major metro area, the FCC will authorize the new 50kw blowtorch if the above criteria has been met. The challenge now, especially in Florida, is finding an AM frequency that will work with 50,000 watts, even directional. The AM and FM band is so satuated with new stations that there is very little, if anything, that will work now without moving another station to another frequency and litterally playing musical chairs with stations in order to wedge in another station or upgrade an existing one. And, even if you find one that will work, it can take many years to see your station through to fruition. One of my own projects took over ten years to complete due to the FCC acting very slowly.

 

[w9wi]

Regarding the 50kw AMs in large metropolitan areas, the FCC considers any class station in any location so long as 1) the frequency and proposed power levels fit without causing objectionable interference to another station; 2) it meets the public interest rule, meaning the proposed City of License is undeserved by local radio and it would be in the public interest to authorize the new facility; and, 3) the applicant is legally and financially qualified to build/own/operate the new facility

To put it another way, if a new 50kw AM will fit in a small rural town, miles away from any major metro area, the FCC will authorize the new 50kw blowtorch if the above criteria has been met.

Absolutely.

The best, Class I, channels were handed out in the 1920s and 1930s. They went to broadcasters able to commit to the high cost of building and maintaining one of these things. (it was a LOT more expensive, in real terms, than it is today.) Nobody in Florida was willing to make that commitment. It wasn't entirely a population thing; one early Class I station ended up in Springfield, Mass. and another at Hot Springs, Ark.. Class I stations were the "top of the heap". Everyone else must protect them from interference.

(Florida is hardly alone in not having any Class I stations)

By the time Florida broadcasters were willing/able to operate 50kw facilities, there were no Class I assignments available. With care (and a directional antenna) you could get a 50kw Class II like 690/Jacksonville or 710/940 Miami. But you had to protect the existing Class I operations. So you didn't get a nice 50kw-in-all-directions station like Atlanta's WSB-750 or Nashville's WSM-650.

 

[davideduardo]

I wish there were more 50,000 watt AM stations in Florida, however, the FCC would only allow them near large
metro areas like Miami, Orlando, Jacksonville, North, Central and South Florida due to population serving the general public.

Winter Garden is a large metro?

WAPE 690 began as a daytimer, and only went fulltime decades later. Orlando's rather wretched WHOO was 10 kw nights, and highly directional. WINZ and WGBS don't cover half the market, day or night.

.... I would think that Pensacola should warrant a larger AM signal but only WCOA which is 5KW day and perhaps 1KW at night,

It's long been 5 kw day and night. Jacksonville and Tampa /St. Pete and other cities like Phoenix or Tucson or Fresno or Billings or Cedar Rapids or Springfield (MO or IL) or Grand Rapids and on and on did not have anything over 5 kw.

[/quote]...but now the AM band is so cluttered with noise from Mexico/South America it's
pathetic.[/quote]

And in those Latin American nations, they complain about all the interference from the US. AM skips. Life is tough.

We desparately need to get AM digital, block the foreign signals,

How are we going to keep the laws of physics from operating? Colombia has as much right to have radio service as the US does.

 

[Ai4i]

WINZ and WGBS don't cover half the market, day or night.

WINZ's day signal certainly grew when they went omni. Two things happened preceeded this: the FCC relocated their monitoring station, and we no longer protect Cuba.

One thing I do not understand is why, according to radio-locator plus I believe the FCC site, after all these years, WAQI still has a deep day null limiting their signal to 33mv/m toward that long vacated FCC farm at Griffin & Pine Island roads. BTW...at night you can find spots around the hospital at Pembroke & 172 ave where AQI's towers are clearly visible but if there were no Cuban stations, WOR would be audible, a cacaphony of beating carriers and our 710 sounds like double sideband suppressed carrier.

 

[jmtillery]

What station(s) was WINZ protecting when it was directional during the day? It also seems to me that WINZ tried an all news format back around 1973? And wasn't WINZ Top 40 or some other hit based music variation thereof before flipping to news? I had asked that question once before in another thread, but, if I remember correctly, no one seemed to know that answer. Thanks...

 

[Ai4i]

Yes on all points, they protected Cuba to the south and the FCC monitoring station to the north. They were "The AM that sounds like an FM", then NIS, the News and Information Service.

 

[davideduardo]

Yes on all points, they protected Cuba to the south and the FCC monitoring station to the north. They were "The AM that sounds like an FM", then NIS, the News and Information Service.

The night nulls are for Canada (Montréal) and 100 kw XEQ in Mexico City, as 940 is a shared Mexican / Canadian clear channel. They never protected Cuba, as in the applicable NARBA era, there was nothing on 940. For example, a 1951 listing of Cuban stations shows nothing on that channel, while "WINZ, Hollywood, FL" was listed as 50/10, directional. So neither by day nor by night was it protecting Cuba.

I believe that WINZ, which did not exist at the NARBA transition, initially protected Macon's 50 kw WMAZ when 'INZ upped power and moved to Miami. It first operated at 1 kw after W.W. II, going to 50 kw around 1951 and moving the city of licence to Miami. By then, Macon had obtained "seniority" on the channel and required protection for WINZ to increase power... of course, that is a night concern, although Canada and Mexico were the major protected locations.

 

[Ai4i]

They never protected Cuba

Yeah they did, whether the Cuban station was listed or not, 'INZ had a null going straight into downtown Miami. We were told to never run the day pattern at 10 KW. If we had to run 10 KW, always use the night pattern. We were still officially abiding by NARBA but did not really care about Cuba. The day pattern consisted of a three tower endfire array running east/west with the strongest radiation going between NNE and NE and between SSE and SE with a second smaller lobe going due west. In stead of going omnidirectional, it would have been nice if they could have rephased those three towers for a broad north/south pattern. As for their night protections, they also pull in for WMAC, Macon (Guy Gannett Broadcasting was considering buying the then WMAZ and doing a WOWO number on them), and a bit toward WIPR, San Juan. Their night pattern shows a null right at San Juan.

 

[smedge2006]

This thread has me thinking.

Back in the early 60's, when the owners of clear-channel stations were trying to fight off the protection downgrade that finally came about 20 years later, they produced a map that showed areas of the US not served by AM signals at night. (Which for all practical purposes meant "areas not served by radio at night" in 1962). A stretch from St. Louis and Chicago through to the Northeast (with a small gap in Pennsylvania) was carpet-bombed with signals. Large parts of the south were uncovered, and Florida was a sea of non-coverage with a few islands around major cities. The irony was, the clears owners defended their privilege to cover those white areas, yet between distance and Cuban interference, I doubt they were providing much worthwhile service to Florida.

It gets me to wondering what people in those areas listened to at night in the 60's and 70's -- especially high-schoolers who lived in towns without a Top 40 signal at night, or who lost their local Top 40 at sunset. What did the teens of the 60's listen to while cruising in Chiefland, Florida, which had no nighttime signals? Or Crystal River or Bunnell or Lake Wales or Wauchula or Arcadia? Or New Port Richey, where WLCY and just about every other Tampa AM disappeared at sunset and there was no local fulltimer?

 

[Ai4i]

What did the teens of the 60's listen to...no nighttime signals?

Even with two killer stations in Miami, I listened to WLS and WABeatleC each and every night.
77 had Big Dan and The Cuz and those great Dennison's commercials,
"Dennison's, route 22, Union, New Jersey, open ten AM 'til five the next morning, where money talks, nobody walks, Dennison's is open now". Years later, they were found to be a prostitution front, and 89 had that super bright, crisp audio.

 

[gr8oldies]

When I was in Sarasota in 1980, I could get WLS, WABC, KAAY and WLAC not to mention WOWO

 

[jmtillery]

Unfortunately with increased AM congestion over the years, those once very clear clear channel signals are not as clear any longer. I remember hearing WSB, WSM, WBT, WPTF, WCKY, WLS, WNBC, WGN, WBBM and the ever famous WOWO in the '70s here in Florida, and many of those signals are all but gone in some parts of Florida today. Even certain 5kw regionals had better signals years ago that is no longer applicable today.

Interestingly, I used to listen to Top 40 on WBT until Midnight when the format suddenly flipped to what was called Carolina Country which was targeted towards the overnight long haul truckers... Then at 6AM WBT would flip back to Top 40. The country music was only played between Midnight and 6AM six nights each week. Sunday mornings between Midnight and 6AM WBT would sign off the air for its weekely transmitter maintenance.

 

[davideduardo]

They never protected Cuba

Yeah they did, whether the Cuban station was listed or not, 'INZ had a null going straight into downtown Miami.

There was never a Cuban notification for 940, nor any protection rights in the 1942 final NARBA plan. Nothing was added after that, with the only significant change to NARBA being the 540 clear allocation to Mexico along with Canada.

940, however, required, like the Canadian clears, protection of the entire Mexican border. So the protection extended from Chetumal to Tijuana, a very wide arc. Of course, the notified user was XEQ and the protection applied to it, too.

We were told to never run the day pattern at 10 KW. If we had to run 10 KW, always use the night pattern. We were still officially abiding by NARBA but did not really care about Cuba. The day pattern consisted of a three tower endfire array running east/west with the strongest radiation going between NNE and NE and between SSE and SE with a second smaller lobe going due west. In stead of going omnidirectional, it would have been nice if they could have rephased those three towers for a broad north/south pattern. As for their night protections, they also pull in for WMAC, Macon (Guy Gannett Broadcasting was considering buying the then WMAZ and doing a WOWO number on them), and a bit toward WIPR, San Juan. Their night pattern shows a null right at San Juan.

I'm guessing that the null towards San Juan was just a sympathetic null; with a three tower in line array, the protection towards Mexico and XEQ would be mirrored on the other side of the pattern. Since that is basically water, there was likely no justification for building a parallelogram 6 tower array or putting in a dogleg to increase on the less sensitive side of the pattern. WIPR is strongly directional, so it required minimal protection if any.