MickeyD said:
Again, it was explained to Bill. He wants his station his way....which is probably why he can't afford to operate commercial stations or run with the big dogs.
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Any Used Solid State FM TX's Available?
- Thread starter 88.9 Miracle
- Start date
Again, it was explained to Bill. He wants his station his way....which is probably why he can't afford to operate commercial stations or run with the big dogs.
RockNuts! said:
Prior planning to reduce station downtime is a far cry from wasting money. Think about how long it takes to makeup commercials on a sold out log, how long it takes to get your listeners back from a six hour station outage? The answer is TOO LONG. If spending money and maintaining supported transmitters for fast part replacement gives you a reliable plant you are doing a far better than the alternative. Yes, there is a trade off of is it worth it for some stations but that is an ownership versus market chance you take.
NoTimeForSleep said:
I get what frustrates me with all of you nay-sayers is that you automatically assume that I have no experience and that I am ignorant. I've already built 4 stations. From finding the frequencies, doing the engineers and application to the FCC, to everything else but climbing the tower (which I won't do!). I do the public file, programming, accounting, promotions, operations, whatever it takes and I do it 10-12 hours a day, seven days a week. This will be my fifth station. I am committed to my listeners and my communities.
While I don't know everything (never claimed to), neither do you. I enjoy learning new things that I didn't know to make our operations better. But I don't enjoy someone trying to change my mind on things that I do based on my history of showing me it's a wise decision. I do have over 20 years of experience in the industry. In fact, I embrace new technology where others drag. This is because I am forced to do so, because we have very little cash being non-commercial station, especially in this economy. I don't have to sell you on my ideas. But they work for us. We do not have down time, we do not have transmitter problems, we stay on the air. Call it luck or good choices, it's up to you. Our transmitters are all Italian, but they work very very well. Solid as a rock. Why pay for name when off brand has worked extremely well for us.
Why would I pay $40k for a Nautel? Makes absolutely no sense to me. Again we can not sell commercials to pay for a NAME with a bunch of bells and whistles. I'm not knocking Nautel. It's great stuff, but stuff I can not afford unless you are buying. I can get a perfectly good Italian made transmitter for 1/4 of a Nautel and it will perfectly suit my needs.
I know, if it were your station you would buy a Nautel. Easy to say. Until you are place in my shoes without the cash but with a very valuable CP that needs to be built!
RockNuts! said:
No, if it were OUR station, we'd build it with equipment from reputable manufactures with a proven record of support and service because WE know things happen. We wouldn't build it with junk from a third world. If you have built four stations with the same idealogy you have shown in here, then you have built four stations with junk. You want to take shortcuts and cut corners, do it at the studio. You want a station with a higher "up time", build the transmitter site with good equipment. And if you don't have the money to run it, much less build it, perhaps you should sell the CP. I remember a time when the FCC used to require a showing of enough cash on hand to run a station for 90 days. I guess that requirement has gone the way of the cart machine.
Humm, just a few messages back, you said you had over 30 years? Interesting how your story seems to keep changing ever so slightly. And we can see on full display on just how close-minded you are. Or should I say, how 'cheap' you are.
You can't blame the economy on making good decisions or being a non-com either. I know several non-coms that make money, they don't directly compete with commercial stations, however. And we'll call it luck because based on past experience, you will have problems with those transmitters. And when you do have problems, good luck calling Rome and getting someone to help you troubleshoot them. I had this one client who had this junk built by Nicom. It was very evident the manual was translated from some other language and the "tech support" in California couldn't help, so they gave me this number based out of Italy! After being off the air for a week, we replaced it with a Harris exciter. If I ever have a question about that, at least they are only a time zone away.
I thought you said you were a non-com?
We get it, you are cheap. Message received. You care about your listeners, just so long as it does not cost you very much money. Like I said in an earlier message, there are plenty of contract engineers in your area that will be happy to take your money and bail you out when you have a serious problem with your "Italian transmitters". You like taking chances with your radio stations. That's cool. The folks I work with don't like taking chances with their source of income. They want equipment that is reliable and they want equipment that it won't take the contract engineer, who's charging them by the hour, very long to fix when it does go down.
ciao
My wife and I operate 30 stations our non profit corporations own. We have one commercial and the rest non com. It's easy for anyone to look at what you have done and tell you why you are wrong. I just try to remember what day it is.
Messed up and bought junk transmitters. Service from Italy is a PITA. (Those people that support animals)
I used to love Harris and then their support went away. Harris on any day has support equal to the people in Italy. This isn't a compliment. As long as it runs or blows with an easy fix you are king. The day you need support on any model of Harris is the day you pray for a backup. On any given day you can leave a voice mail or talk to a live person and sit at a transmitter shack for a full business day with an off air emergency and no returned call. They can't even think people will buy their crap with support like this but still stay in the business for the residuals of people who remember what Harris used to be. (The buyers and decision makers don't deal with the day to day. When this first started with Harris I invited a station owner to sit with me while I made the service call, knowing how it would go. I told them who I was, the station was off the air (on a supported transmitter) and the owner was sitting here with me waiting on a call. When it didn't come in an hour he sat as we called back. At 2 hours he was screaming into the phone. (These were calls on day 2).) IE Harris used t0 be good now they ventilate air by sucking it in rather than forcing it out.
Split the difference? Call Lyle at P Tek for a quote on a demo 1 kw unit. Buy a transfer switch. (Or get a manual switch or just keep it and a reducer from 1 5/8" in the rack wire tied down)
Their new 500 watt units are just amazing.
What was our PSI 3 bay? 16 k. Another 4k to install. Adding bays isn't cheap and it increases install costs. We have a 3 .6 kw station with a PSI DA and have 700 watts as our input power. Your TPO could end as low as 2100 W. Just depends on how it models. The 1 kw solid state at below $10k would be 5kw output if you require 2kw.
More importantly What I see day to day is not what we do with the radio stations but what the radio stations do with people. Regardless of format are you doing something important in your community? All the power in the world is wasted if you aren't doing something. Hopefully then DA gets you into an area you don't service now. The more you involve folks and make them see your vision (tell me you have a vision) then the more people will support your stations.
Godspeed.
Messed up and bought junk transmitters. Service from Italy is a PITA. (Those people that support animals)
I used to love Harris and then their support went away. Harris on any day has support equal to the people in Italy. This isn't a compliment. As long as it runs or blows with an easy fix you are king. The day you need support on any model of Harris is the day you pray for a backup. On any given day you can leave a voice mail or talk to a live person and sit at a transmitter shack for a full business day with an off air emergency and no returned call. They can't even think people will buy their crap with support like this but still stay in the business for the residuals of people who remember what Harris used to be. (The buyers and decision makers don't deal with the day to day. When this first started with Harris I invited a station owner to sit with me while I made the service call, knowing how it would go. I told them who I was, the station was off the air (on a supported transmitter) and the owner was sitting here with me waiting on a call. When it didn't come in an hour he sat as we called back. At 2 hours he was screaming into the phone. (These were calls on day 2).) IE Harris used t0 be good now they ventilate air by sucking it in rather than forcing it out.
Split the difference? Call Lyle at P Tek for a quote on a demo 1 kw unit. Buy a transfer switch. (Or get a manual switch or just keep it and a reducer from 1 5/8" in the rack wire tied down)
Their new 500 watt units are just amazing.
What was our PSI 3 bay? 16 k. Another 4k to install. Adding bays isn't cheap and it increases install costs. We have a 3 .6 kw station with a PSI DA and have 700 watts as our input power. Your TPO could end as low as 2100 W. Just depends on how it models. The 1 kw solid state at below $10k would be 5kw output if you require 2kw.
More importantly What I see day to day is not what we do with the radio stations but what the radio stations do with people. Regardless of format are you doing something important in your community? All the power in the world is wasted if you aren't doing something. Hopefully then DA gets you into an area you don't service now. The more you involve folks and make them see your vision (tell me you have a vision) then the more people will support your stations.
Godspeed.
ChiefEngineer said:
Actually, you got me wanting some humus and felafel balls now.
The last time I called Harris I was having a problem with an SX2.5. I'm on the phone with their tech guy, and I hear him turning pages. So I asked him, "are you looking through the book?", "Yea.", "I have already been through the book and there's nothing in there addressing this problem. That's why I'm on the phone with you.", "oh." As it turns out, the logic board was fried. The transmitter was coming up, blowers blowing, PA Voltage and all, just no RF output. They wanted $850 for a refurbished logic board. We found one in a recently retired SX5. Put it in my SX and placed an order for a new Nautel. Harris used to make really good stuff. When they stopped supporting their best selling AM transmitter line, it turned lots of people off. When asked, they say "well we can't support it forever". And my response is, "Nautel does." I have a 1kW Ampfet built in 1983 that Nautel still supports and still has people on staff that knows the transmitter.
Some people call me a "homer" for Nautel. If reccomending a great product from a great company makes me a homer, so be it.
PTek is pretty good stuff. However, they have a similar problem of Harris. I was called to a station running 4 of their 500 watt amps into a combiner. The combiner was having problems. I called PTek for parts, and it was no longer supported anymore. They could not get parts for it. The combiner was only 6 years old! I was able to do some digging and found a supplier, but this support thing is crazy.
Excellent words. All radio has left is community service. Listeners have so many other places to get entertainment from these days. I firmly believe that unless radio gets back to what it was in the 60's and 70's with the personalities and community service, it will fade into history. It's got to get back to giving people a reason to listen. "50 minutes of non-stop music" isn't gonna cut it anymore. If I want that, I can get several hours of non-stop music on my 4 gig mp3 player.
[/quote]
True...a part of "doing the homework" should have included comparing power consumption on FM tube rigs vs solid state. I compared BE 5KW FM solid state vs tube...there was no power saving.Watt Hairston said:
BobOnTheJob said:
The only big difference is the solid state rig doesn't require as much attention or a new tube every so often.
But a new RF pallet for a Harris Z series is over $500 and there can be 20 or more of them. Some Z's lose 1 a year, some never lose any. When a Solid State rig needs repairs, it can sometimes eat up the dollars at about the same rate as a final tube every couple of years does. There are multiple sources for tubes, not so for RF modules or pallets. Solid State is not a panacea. If I were on my own having to fix a rig without any factory support, give me the tube rig every time. I can fix those on my own.
I lost a couple on my first Z. And found the mounting screws barely finger tight. Now, I pull the modules once a year, and taske my trusty Allen key and snug up the screws which mount the pallet to the heat sink. They will loosen over time, due to the unequal expansion of the metals used - steel screw through copper pallet into aluminum heat sink. Keep them snugged down, feed it clean air, and I haven't lost one in seven years. I've currently got three of them.
The Z series pallets are now close to a grand now, over that with shipping and tax. The key is keeping them cool for long life. Heat insult will get you in the long run.
Lane
Lane
The most reliable transmitters I've ever worked on are the grounded-grid triodes with the solid state IPA. If built correctly, they run and run as long as you feed them a new tube every 18 months. They can take a lightning hit and not fry, and are forgiving if the transmitter shack is less than cool. If you have a cool shack with AC to keep it at a nice 70, then even better.
One was a CCA, one a "Bernie Box" (Energy-Onix) and the other was a modified McMartin (tube IPA replaced with a solid state module). Keep 'em clean and cool and they'll keep you on the air.
One was a CCA, one a "Bernie Box" (Energy-Onix) and the other was a modified McMartin (tube IPA replaced with a solid state module). Keep 'em clean and cool and they'll keep you on the air.
WNTIRadio said:
Wasn't the Collins 831D1 a grounded grid box? I remember having lots of luck with one until the owner moved the studios into town and killed the air conditioning at the transmitter/old studio site. The first August in south Georgia did it in. Same thing with a Harris MW1A. Turned off the AC and the box was never the same.
We believe we are going to go with our Harris 3.5kw Tube unit for now, though it needs a little work to prep it. Any engineers close to Cincinnati up for it? Let me know.
What is the general consensus among the engineers here.
1. AC for cooling without a fresh air system
OR
2. No AC with a fresh air system pumping in filtered outside air using a pressurized system (fans pulling in filtered fresh air instead of fans blowing out inside air?
We would like to do this right the first time.
Further, if A/C, what BTU? We currently have one Solid State 2.4kw installation with a 25,000 BTU window unit that is working well. Just wondering if 25,000 BTU is strong enough to keep a 3.5kw tube system cool.
If fan is the most suggested, can anyone give me links to the fan equipment that you are suggesting for research? A good alternative would be if I could visit a site or two to see how you have your system set up. I'm in Cincinnati. Any sites close that I can visit?
What is the general consensus among the engineers here.
1. AC for cooling without a fresh air system
OR
2. No AC with a fresh air system pumping in filtered outside air using a pressurized system (fans pulling in filtered fresh air instead of fans blowing out inside air?
We would like to do this right the first time.
Further, if A/C, what BTU? We currently have one Solid State 2.4kw installation with a 25,000 BTU window unit that is working well. Just wondering if 25,000 BTU is strong enough to keep a 3.5kw tube system cool.
If fan is the most suggested, can anyone give me links to the fan equipment that you are suggesting for research? A good alternative would be if I could visit a site or two to see how you have your system set up. I'm in Cincinnati. Any sites close that I can visit?
RockNuts! said:
I wouldn't install an air conditioner without some kind of fresh air back up. Several of my sites have an AC unit, and an exhaust fan and louver system. Fans and louvers are on a thermostat. Inside temp reaches 90 (due to an AC failure) the fan kicks on and the louvers open. Another advantage of this is during this time of year, you can shut off the AC and run the fan, saving just a few bucks on electricity.
If you really wanna get fancy. I installed two 10 ton units at a TV transmitter I built. They operated in a lead/lag configuration. If one failed, it would give you enough time to get an air tech out before it melted down. That's a little overkill for an FM site, tho.
Grainger sells everything you need. Fans, grills, thermostats, louvers and filters.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Exhaust-Fan-1HLA1?Pid=search
Then there's these:
http://www.bigassfans.com/commercial
The easiest thing to do is vent the heat from the tube box outside. Just make sure your ductwork is large enough (don't want any pressure running back into the unit) and that the outside vent is covered so rain doesn't blow back in. You're best to put the vent on the leeward side of the most prevailing winds. You'll need a smaller AC that way. One site I was at had a 10 ton unit in a 20' x 20' room and it was a meat locker. The other advantage is that you put a control inside the ductwork to vent the heat inside during the winter, the waste heat will keep the building warm.
And yes, still always have a backup fan. I would go with AC for the primary cooling, because venting in 95 degree humid air in the summertime doesn't really do much good.
And yes, still always have a backup fan. I would go with AC for the primary cooling, because venting in 95 degree humid air in the summertime doesn't really do much good.
RockNuts! said:
Below is the output text of a DOS ! computer program I wrote over 20 years ago as an employee of Harris. Whether or not your 25,000 BTU A/C is enough will depend on the other heat loads in the building, including solar heating.
If you are going to operate at some other TPO please advise, and I'll post those values.
* FM TRANSMITTER AC LOAD *
Transmitter name (HT-??FM): ? 3.5
TPO in kW: ? 3.5
AC line voltage: ? 220
Total Tx = 34.1 amps/phase, 7.5 kVA total.
Total AC/RF Efficiency = 51.6 %
Tx System Air: 355 cu. feet/min.
Total Heat = 11,159 BTU/Hr.
Heat Rise, total tx system = 29 deg. F.
Air Conditioner Load = 1.0 tons
Some time ago Jeff Steinkamp wrote a fairly detailed paper about tx plant cooling systems which is still available at http://www.bdcast.com/fgal/white_paper/transmitter_cooling_systems_design__BCEWHP.pdf .
RF
I have a 5kw Z that's NEVER had a failure ever. The station has had it for a decade. I'd be less inclined to buy a Harris again based on their support limitations, but the beast just keeps working. It's hard to argue with that part of the deal.
Thanks everyone for your helpful replies.
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