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Anyone have a clue

L

latindj

Guest
I just recently purchased a radio station and i'm having some trouble getting into some close by city but i'm getting into other places that are kind of far away and i had some one tell me maybe it was my ground system my question is how much of a difference can a ground system make?? Can it make or break a station??
 
Your ground system can make or break your signal. Your engineer should check the condition of the radials to make sure they're still in good condition. He should also make sure no one has cut the radials, which can happen if you've got development near the tower site.

I know of two stations in Washington State that were suffering with poor coverage and the problems were traced to ground problems. One of the stations had an old tower installation and the radials had broken down over the years. They were non-existent. The other station had development build up around it and the radials were cut back as the buildings were being built. In the first case, the ground system had to be rebuilt. I'm not sure of the outcome of the second station's antenna system.



> I just recently purchased a radio station and i'm having
> some trouble getting into some close by city but i'm getting
> into other places that are kind of far away and i had some
> one tell me maybe it was my ground system my question is how
> much of a difference can a ground system make?? Can it make
> or break a station??
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Frank
East Hill Radio

Moderator, Community Radio USA, Seattle</P>
 
will water make the difference

>if water comes in contact with my grounding system will this change my coverage power? or reach


Your ground system can make or break your signal. Your
> engineer should check the condition of the radials to make
> sure they're still in good condition. He should also make
> sure no one has cut the radials, which can happen if you've
> got development near the tower site.
>
> I know of two stations in Washington State that were
> suffering with poor coverage and the problems were traced to
> ground problems. One of the stations had an old tower
> installation and the radials had broken down over the years.
> They were non-existent. The other station had development
> build up around it and the radials were cut back as the
> buildings were being built. In the first case, the ground
> system had to be rebuilt. I'm not sure of the outcome of
> the second station's antenna system.
>
>
>
> > I just recently purchased a radio station and i'm having
> > some trouble getting into some close by city but i'm
> getting
> > into other places that are kind of far away and i had some
>
> > one tell me maybe it was my ground system my question is
> how
> > much of a difference can a ground system make?? Can it
> make
> > or break a station??
> >
>
 
Re: will water make the difference

> >if water comes in contact with my grounding system will
> this change my coverage power? or reach
>
>
> Your ground system can make or break your signal. Your
> > engineer should check the condition of the radials to make
>
> > sure they're still in good condition. He should also make
>
> > sure no one has cut the radials, which can happen if
> you've
> > got development near the tower site.
> >
> > I know of two stations in Washington State that were
> > suffering with poor coverage and the problems were traced
> to
> > ground problems. One of the stations had an old tower
> > installation and the radials had broken down over the
> years.
> > They were non-existent. The other station had
> development
> > build up around it and the radials were cut back as the
> > buildings were being built. In the first case, the ground
>
> > system had to be rebuilt. I'm not sure of the outcome of
> > the second station's antenna system.
> >
> >
> >
> > > I just recently purchased a radio station and i'm having
>
> > > some trouble getting into some close by city but i'm
> > getting
> > > into other places that are kind of far away and i had
> some
> >
> > > one tell me maybe it was my ground system my question is
>
> > how
> > > much of a difference can a ground system make?? Can it
> > make
> > > or break a station??

Where is this station? Sometimes issues with the ground system can cause a defacto directional pattern--sometimes there can be terrestial blockage such as mountain ranges and sometimes you can just not have enough punch to be heard inside certain types of building construction with nothing at the station at fault except perhaps modulation. I know that there are a number of very qualified engineers on this board with the ability to visit your site and diagnose the problem.
> > >
> >
>
 
Re: will water make the difference

Latindj, since you have posted about pirate radio on the Texas board and Houston board, is this a pirate station you are putting on the air or a licensed broadcast station?
 
Re: will water make the difference

it's a 5,000 watt station what do you think lol it's a full time station i can get into the major market well atleast the cars but my problem is penetrating the walls inside the houses . The guy i bought the radio station from told me that the grounding system has about 300 copper cables and that some were messed up when the new tower was put in lets say that 80 of these 300 cables are cut would that be enough to take from my power??
 
Re: will water make the difference

You should:

1. Check you coverage. This will tell you where your weak areas are. A good engineer can run a coverage survey.

2. Inspect your ground. Your engineer can do that.

3. Check your antenna. If they messed up on the ground radials, they could have messed up on the tower install.

4. Check the transmitter and the feedline to make sure you're in tune and that the tranmission line isn't damaged.

I don't know your location, but 5000 watts should cover very well. Is your station directional or do you reduce power at night?

> it's a 5,000 watt station what do you think lol it's a full
> time station i can get into the major market well atleast
> the cars but my problem is penetrating the walls inside the
> houses . The guy i bought the radio station from told me
> that the grounding system has about 300 copper cables and
> that some were messed up when the new tower was put in lets
> say that 80 of these 300 cables are cut would that be enough
> to take from my power??
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Frank
East Hill Radio

Moderator, Community Radio USA, Seattle</P>
 
Re: will water make the difference

> You should:
>
> 1. Check you coverage. This will tell you where your weak
> areas are. A good engineer can run a coverage survey.
>
> 2. Inspect your ground. Your engineer can do that.
>
> 3. Check your antenna. If they messed up on the ground
> radials, they could have messed up on the tower install.
>
> 4. Check the transmitter and the feedline to make sure
> you're in tune and that the tranmission line isn't damaged.
>
> I don't know your location, but 5000 watts should cover very
> well. Is your station directional or do you reduce power at
> night?
>
> > it's a 5,000 watt station what do you think lol it's a
> full
> > time station i can get into the major market well atleast
> > the cars but my problem is penetrating the walls inside
> the
> > houses . The guy i bought the radio station from told me
> > that the grounding system has about 300 copper cables and
> > that some were messed up when the new tower was put in
> lets
> > say that 80 of these 300 cables are cut would that be
> enough
> > to take from my power??

I would also suggest looking at your audio chain and transmitter. How you feed the transmitter in terms of audio processing - and making certain that your modulation is maximized as well as knowing if you have an older tube driven transmitter or a newer one (plate modulation versus PDM)will make some difference. I have a station client using a 5kw transmitter at 2.5kw plate driven transmitter days and a 1kw solid state at night and the 1kw penetrates the buildings far better. The way you process and they type of transmitter can have a great deal of bearing on how you get out. The actual condition and type of the processing can have a bearing on your loudness and penetration as well as the condition of your transmitter regardless of it being plate modulated or PDM. The ground system can also have some bearing. Some of what I reference you can check yourself and some will require an engineer. Keep us updated on how things work out.
> >
>
 
Re: will water make the difference

>I reduce to 1,000 watts at night to protect mexico the major market here is only about 3-40 miles away i can be heard in the cars ok (some static) but i just cant seem to penetrate into the houses very well i'm thinking maybe 30% of my ground system is tored up but should fixing that change anything im the the odessa midland area




You should:
>
> 1. Check you coverage. This will tell you where your weak
> areas are. A good engineer can run a coverage survey.
>
> 2. Inspect your ground. Your engineer can do that.
>
> 3. Check your antenna. If they messed up on the ground
> radials, they could have messed up on the tower install.
>
> 4. Check the transmitter and the feedline to make sure
> you're in tune and that the tranmission line isn't damaged.
>
> I don't know your location, but 5000 watts should cover very
> well. Is your station directional or do you reduce power at
> night?
>
> > it's a 5,000 watt station what do you think lol it's a
> full
> > time station i can get into the major market well atleast
> > the cars but my problem is penetrating the walls inside
> the
> > houses . The guy i bought the radio station from told me
> > that the grounding system has about 300 copper cables and
> > that some were messed up when the new tower was put in
> lets
> > say that 80 of these 300 cables are cut would that be
> enough
> > to take from my power??
> >
>
 
Re: will water make the difference

> >i have a new transmiter maybe 4 years old i'm getting to other city's that are alot further off better i just cant seem to beam it stong enought into the odessa midland area
You should:
> >
> > 1. Check you coverage. This will tell you where your
> weak
> > areas are. A good engineer can run a coverage survey.
> >
> > 2. Inspect your ground. Your engineer can do that.
> >
> > 3. Check your antenna. If they messed up on the ground
> > radials, they could have messed up on the tower install.
> >
> > 4. Check the transmitter and the feedline to make sure
> > you're in tune and that the tranmission line isn't
> damaged.
> >
> > I don't know your location, but 5000 watts should cover
> very
> > well. Is your station directional or do you reduce power
> at
> > night?
> >
> > > it's a 5,000 watt station what do you think lol it's a
> > full
> > > time station i can get into the major market well
> atleast
> > > the cars but my problem is penetrating the walls inside
> > the
> > > houses . The guy i bought the radio station from told me
>
> > > that the grounding system has about 300 copper cables
> and
> > > that some were messed up when the new tower was put in
> > lets
> > > say that 80 of these 300 cables are cut would that be
> > enough
> > > to take from my power??
>
> I would also suggest looking at your audio chain and
> transmitter. How you feed the transmitter in terms of audio
> processing - and making certain that your modulation is
> maximized as well as knowing if you have an older tube
> driven transmitter or a newer one (plate modulation versus
> PDM)will make some difference. I have a station client using
> a 5kw transmitter at 2.5kw plate driven transmitter days and
> a 1kw solid state at night and the 1kw penetrates the
> buildings far better. The way you process and they type of
> transmitter can have a great deal of bearing on how you get
> out. The actual condition and type of the processing can
> have a bearing on your loudness and penetration as well as
> the condition of your transmitter regardless of it being
> plate modulated or PDM. The ground system can also have some
> bearing. Some of what I reference you can check yourself and
> some will require an engineer. Keep us updated on how things
> work out.
> > >
> >
>
 
Re: will water make the difference

> > >i have a new transmiter maybe 4 years old i'm getting to
> other city's that are alot further off better i just cant
> seem to beam it stong enought into the odessa midland area
> You should:
> > >
> > > 1. Check you coverage. This will tell you where your
> > weak
> > > areas are. A good engineer can run a coverage survey.
> > >
> > > 2. Inspect your ground. Your engineer can do that.
> > >
> > > 3. Check your antenna. If they messed up on the ground
>
> > > radials, they could have messed up on the tower install.
>
> > >
> > > 4. Check the transmitter and the feedline to make sure
> > > you're in tune and that the tranmission line isn't
> > damaged.
> > >
> > > I don't know your location, but 5000 watts should cover
> > very
> > > well. Is your station directional or do you reduce
> power
> > at
> > > night?
> > >
> > > > it's a 5,000 watt station what do you think lol it's a
>
> > > full
> > > > time station i can get into the major market well
> > atleast
> > > > the cars but my problem is penetrating the walls
> inside
> > > the
> > > > houses . The guy i bought the radio station from told
> me
> >
> > > > that the grounding system has about 300 copper cables
> > and
> > > > that some were messed up when the new tower was put in
>
> > > lets
> > > > say that 80 of these 300 cables are cut would that be
> > > enough
> > > > to take from my power??
> >
> > I would also suggest looking at your audio chain and
> > transmitter. How you feed the transmitter in terms of
> audio
> > processing - and making certain that your modulation is
> > maximized as well as knowing if you have an older tube
> > driven transmitter or a newer one (plate modulation versus
>
> > PDM)will make some difference. I have a station client
> using
> > a 5kw transmitter at 2.5kw plate driven transmitter days
> and
> > a 1kw solid state at night and the 1kw penetrates the
> > buildings far better. The way you process and they type of
>
> > transmitter can have a great deal of bearing on how you
> get
> > out. The actual condition and type of the processing can
> > have a bearing on your loudness and penetration as well as
>
> > the condition of your transmitter regardless of it being
> > plate modulated or PDM. The ground system can also have
> some
> > bearing. Some of what I reference you can check yourself
> and
> > some will require an engineer. Keep us updated on how
> things
> > work out.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
How far are you from Midland - Odessa? Can you disclose the station calls or at least the general part of the AM band you are on? There are transmitters and there are transmitters. What type is it? 4 years old and it could well have problems...There are some excellent guys in Texas who could trouble shoot for you-One of them is involved with building a new AM in Midland.
 
Re: will water make the difference

Well maybe you guys can Help me the Calls are KLBO 1330AM i'm about 35 miles from Odessa max but like 28 from West odessa and i dont even get their very clearly what other info do you need ?
> > > >
> > > > 4. Check the transmitter and the feedline to make
> sure
> > > > you're in tune and that the tranmission line isn't
> > > damaged.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know your location, but 5000 watts should
> cover
> > > very
> > > > well. Is your station directional or do you reduce
> > power
> > > at
> > > > night?
> > > >
> > > > > it's a 5,000 watt station what do you think lol it's
> a
> >
> > > > full
> > > > > time station i can get into the major market well
> > > atleast
> > > > > the cars but my problem is penetrating the walls
> > inside
> > > > the
> > > > > houses . The guy i bought the radio station from
> told
> > me
> > >
> > > > > that the grounding system has about 300 copper
> cables
> > > and
> > > > > that some were messed up when the new tower was put
> in
> >
> > > > lets
> > > > > say that 80 of these 300 cables are cut would that
> be
> > > > enough
> > > > > to take from my power??
> > >
> > > I would also suggest looking at your audio chain and
> > > transmitter. How you feed the transmitter in terms of
> > audio
> > > processing - and making certain that your modulation is
> > > maximized as well as knowing if you have an older tube
> > > driven transmitter or a newer one (plate modulation
> versus
> >
> > > PDM)will make some difference. I have a station client
> > using
> > > a 5kw transmitter at 2.5kw plate driven transmitter days
>
> > and
> > > a 1kw solid state at night and the 1kw penetrates the
> > > buildings far better. The way you process and they type
> of
> >
> > > transmitter can have a great deal of bearing on how you
> > get
> > > out. The actual condition and type of the processing can
>
> > > have a bearing on your loudness and penetration as well
> as
> >
> > > the condition of your transmitter regardless of it being
>
> > > plate modulated or PDM. The ground system can also have
> > some
> > > bearing. Some of what I reference you can check yourself
>
> > and
> > > some will require an engineer. Keep us updated on how
> > things
> > > work out.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> How far are you from Midland - Odessa? Can you disclose the
> station calls or at least the general part of the AM band
> you are on? There are transmitters and there are
> transmitters. What type is it? 4 years old and it could well
> have problems...There are some excellent guys in Texas who
> could trouble shoot for you-One of them is involved with
> building a new AM in Midland.
>
 
Re: will water make the difference

> Well maybe you guys can Help me the Calls are KLBO 1330AM
> i'm about 35 miles from Odessa max but like 28 from West
> odessa and i dont even get their very clearly what other
> info do you need ?
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. Check the transmitter and the feedline to make
> > sure
> > > > > you're in tune and that the tranmission line isn't
> > > > damaged.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know your location, but 5000 watts should
> > cover
> > > > very
> > > > > well. Is your station directional or do you reduce
> > > power
> > > > at
> > > > > night?
> > > > >
> > > > > > it's a 5,000 watt station what do you think lol
> it's
> > a
> > >
> > > > > full
> > > > > > time station i can get into the major market well
> > > > atleast
> > > > > > the cars but my problem is penetrating the walls
> > > inside
> > > > > the
> > > > > > houses . The guy i bought the radio station from
> > told
> > > me
> > > >
> > > > > > that the grounding system has about 300 copper
> > cables
> > > > and
> > > > > > that some were messed up when the new tower was
> put
> > in
> > >
> > > > > lets
> > > > > > say that 80 of these 300 cables are cut would that
>
> > be
> > > > > enough
> > > > > > to take from my power??
> > > >
> > > > I would also suggest looking at your audio chain and
> > > > transmitter. How you feed the transmitter in terms of
> > > audio
> > > > processing - and making certain that your modulation
> is
> > > > maximized as well as knowing if you have an older tube
>
> > > > driven transmitter or a newer one (plate modulation
> > versus
> > >
> > > > PDM)will make some difference. I have a station client
>
> > > using
> > > > a 5kw transmitter at 2.5kw plate driven transmitter
> days
> >
> > > and
> > > > a 1kw solid state at night and the 1kw penetrates the
> > > > buildings far better. The way you process and they
> type
> > of
> > >
> > > > transmitter can have a great deal of bearing on how
> you
> > > get
> > > > out. The actual condition and type of the processing
> can
> >
> > > > have a bearing on your loudness and penetration as
> well
> > as
> > >
> > > > the condition of your transmitter regardless of it
> being
> >
> > > > plate modulated or PDM. The ground system can also
> have
> > > some
> > > > bearing. Some of what I reference you can check
> yourself
> >
> > > and
> > > > some will require an engineer. Keep us updated on how
> > > things
> > > > work out.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > How far are you from Midland - Odessa? Can you disclose
> the
> > station calls or at least the general part of the AM band
> > you are on? There are transmitters and there are
> > transmitters. What type is it? 4 years old and it could
> well
> > have problems...There are some excellent guys in Texas who
>
> > could trouble shoot for you-One of them is involved with
> > building a new AM in Midland.
> >

I asked several questions in the previous post that you should have your local engineer check out...Bad audio processing--low output from the audio chain--an issue with the modulator section of the transmitter--all of this can cause you problems such as you discuss. A missing section of ground could also add to the possible culprits. If everything checks out well then we have to move to the next level which means that you will have to accept the fact that KLDO is not a local station to the market and that having a consultant perform a study to determine if you can apply for a minor change to increase power is the next logical step.You might be able to get 10kw and are also allowed to apply to change frequency "3 up or 3 down" from where you are assuming that you will not create interference to other stations or pending applications by doing so. Chances are that being in West Texas you can do something to improve your situation. You might even talk to your broadcast attorney about applying for an experimental synchronus transmitter on your frequency in Midland or Odessa. KKOB, Albuquerque has something similar to this to rebroadcast their signal in Santa Fe. The bottom line here is that there is a solution for your problem. It is simply a matter of identification of the problem(s) and correcting them.>
 
Re: will water make the difference

latindj,

Your questions are at a level not expected from a 5000 watt commercial radio station owner. Your engineer should have all the answers you need. Do you have a qualified engineeer? If not, you need to get one.

Also your questions are more appropriate for the engineering forum at Radio-Info.

Phil B

<P ID="signature">______________
Phil B
</P>
 
Re: will water make the difference

> latindj,
>
> Your questions are at a level not expected from a 5000 watt
> commercial radio station owner. Your engineer should have
> all the answers you need. Do you have a qualified engineeer?
> If not, you need to get one.
>
> Also your questions are more appropriate for the engineering
> forum at Radio-Info.
>
> Phil B
>
I asked my consultant engineer to call the station to speak with you to see if we could offer some limited direct help but the number did not answer. If you can post a number or email to reach you we can try again.
 
Re: will water make the difference

my # is 432 943-2588 ask for the GM
> >
> > Your questions are at a level not expected from a 5000
> watt
> > commercial radio station owner. Your engineer should have
> > all the answers you need. Do you have a qualified
> engineeer?
> > If not, you need to get one.
> >
> > Also your questions are more appropriate for the
> engineering
> > forum at Radio-Info.
> >
> > Phil B
> >
> I asked my consultant engineer to call the station to speak
> with you to see if we could offer some limited direct help
> but the number did not answer. If you can post a number or
> email to reach you we can try again.
>
 
Re: will water make the difference

>
I'm into the buisnes not the technical part of radio but heck you would need to be in my shoes to see it >
> Your questions are at a level not expected from a 5000 watt
> commercial radio station owner. Your engineer should have
> all the answers you need. Do you have a qualified engineeer?
> If not, you need to get one.
>
> Also your questions are more appropriate for the engineering
> forum at Radio-Info.
>
> Phil B
>
 
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