• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Arcade Fire and Indie music

ChannelFlipper said:
Generally, the judicious use of debt lowers a company's overall cost of capital due to the deduct-ability of the interest payments.

However many radio companies over-leveraged to their, and the industry's overall detriment.

Yet the companies that seem to be over-leveraged, like Clear Channel, are at the top of the ratings, among the most profitable, and are doing the most investment in new technologies. So I find it hard to say that it's been to the industry's detriment. The companies that are holding the industry back are the ones who own single AM stations.
 
ChannelFlipper said:
Generally, the judicious use of debt lowers a company's overall cost of capital due to the deduct-ability of the interest payments.

However many radio companies over-leveraged to their, and the industry's overall detriment.

Beyond the fact that all business expenses are "deductable" (a bad term, since taxation of business is based on profit, the difference between cost and sales) borrowing is a good practice because generally a business does not borrow unless they see that the return on the use of the loan will be greater than the cost of the loan.

The problem is that the recession and the changes in media usage created a perfect storm for some companies since they could no longer make the profits that they anticipate.
 
Buckethead said:
Prior to deregulation, before the buying frenzy that resulted in companies like CC
the cost of a radio station was such that they could be owned by individuals and not investment banks.
They property values skyrocketed due to these new megolopolies that were fuel by enormous debt.
Debt that we now see has exceeded it's ability to be repaid.

If you take the cost of a station today to the inflation-adjusted cost of a comparable station in 1970, you find the cost in 1960 was lower!

By "comparable" I mean that the technical facility is ranked comparably by today's standards... meaning that what was the 3rd best AM signal then would now mean the 3rd best FM signal as in most markets the 3rd best AM signal is not even in the running today. "Comparable" also means tha the station has similar rating ranking, revenue ranking and BCF margins. An example is that in 1960, the estimated sale price of KRUX in Phoenix would be comparable or greater than the estimated sale price today of, perhaps, KOOL-FM.

The models for pricing for profitable stations have been fairly comparable for decades, save the buying frenzy of the 1996-1999 period where prices were inflated due to having many suitors for limited resources... kind of like apartments facting Central Park.

I recall being part of a station deal in 1970 for a Top 30 market AM for about 12 times cash flow. Today, that AM station is worth probably 20% less than was paid for it 41 years ago! The problem is that there is no demand; I could make the deal for that one myself, and know the market exceedingly well... but I would not take the station even if it were given to me.

Your pricing theory, vis a vis reality, is wrong.
 
Buckethead said:
My point is only that the massive debt the companies are carrying has changed the industry for the worse.

The debt today seems bigger because some radio companies are bigger. But in general, the level of debt to equity does not seem much different today on a "per station" basis.

The issue with debt is that the assumptions used to borrow are destroyed by a deep recession... just as the we see in the housing market, where the assumption that salaries would rise and home values would appreciate have caused millions to have lost homes or be in default on their loans.

I would be very happy to be living hand to mouth at KPFK

I find nothing attractive about a station whose weekly reach is less than the listenership of KIIS in a single quarter hour in mid-days. Or a station whose Spanish language programming advocates the overthrow of Central American governments and the killing of people in the process...
 
Buckethead said:
On the contrary, EVC's overwhelming debt IS the reason Indie happened in the first place.

Entravision, prior to the recession, had no debt service problem.

If money costs 6% and you can get an ROI of 12%, then you go and buy as many stations as you can, since the relationship works with 5 stations or 500.

The KDL format was performing poorly, nothing on that signal was sticking.

And nothing had ever really worked on that facilty.

EVC was offered a deal where they had a guaranteed 2 million per year in the bank with almost no overhead. So you see it wasn't the format at all that EVC was interested in at first.

It's not about EVC, it's about CCU. While the FCC prohibited a capped-out owner to "influence" the programming on a station in a JSA, it's interesting to ponder the fact that a format that dinged KROQ even a tiny bit moved some of the CCU properties into a better rank and thus giving them a better chance to get on buys.

So a revenue guarantee that would help competitively at the cluster level does not mean that the format has anywhere close to the same value to any other operator. And we see that, when the JSA was no longer permitted, Clear moved to position KYSR to do the same job in reducing the rank in sales demos of KROQ.

I know of a cluster in the late 60's that had one "extra" station used strictly to program against any competitor that was affecting sales of the rest of the cluster. That station took on any station that was making an impact, and fragged it out of the format, over and over.

It was only when they saw CC raking in 8 million a year did EVC realize that there was more to be made by being out of that deal and continuing the format.

For reference, the billing did hit around $7, but in that year KHJ AM did around $6 million in the way of a comparison. When top billers were around $50 million and KBUE's collection of A's was hitting around $30 million, that's not syuch impressive billing. KDLD did over $3 last year, on vastly lower costs, and in the middle of a horrible recession.

The format was only somewhat viable in the context of cluster strategies nearly a decade ago. Recession, PPM and the overal decline of rock in general are just part of the issue.
 
DavidEduardo said:
ChannelFlipper said:
Generally, the judicious use of debt lowers a company's overall cost of capital due to the deduct-ability of the interest payments.

However many radio companies over-leveraged to their, and the industry's overall detriment.

Beyond the fact that all business expenses are "deductable" (a bad term, since taxation of business is based on profit, the difference between cost and sales) borrowing is a good practice because generally a business does not borrow unless they see that the return on the use of the loan will be greater than the cost of the loan.

The problem is that the recession and the changes in media usage created a perfect storm for some companies since they could no longer make the profits that they anticipate.

David,

I think you are missing my point. Debt is attractive to owners because it is generally cheaper than equity. That is why most companies, when given a choice, will maximize the debt they can carry before taking on more equity. What that "maximum" amount is often is judgmental based on the risk tolerance of management. Other times it is judgmental subject to the risk tolerance of those external to management, such as existing senior lenders or equity investors.

In the case of radio, executives saw that through consolidation, cost reduction and synergies of various markets and properties, they could squeeze increasing profit margins out each radio station, thereby justifying ever increasing valuations. But those increased valuations could not go on forever because there are only so much costs and efficiencies to be obtained, no matter how many stations one consolidates, and those who were last to find out were left holding the (devalued) bag when the bubble inevitably burst. They over-levered. Any time major market participants in any market are overlevered like those in radio, the industry as a whole is bound to suffer because management has to make ever increasing payments to it creditors while dealing with substantially lower revenue.

Radio has lost major existing talent due to lay-offs, does not have a pipeline of talent due to voice-tracking and massive syndication, and has foolishly put what remains of its existing R&D into HD radio, a concept the public has rejected in droves. Because of all of this, radio is not well-positioned to take on industry threats such as Ipods, Satelite, and most importantly to come, the mainstreaming of internet radio.
 
ChannelFlipper said:
Radio has lost major existing talent due to lay-offs, does not have a pipeline of talent due to voice-tracking and massive syndication, and has foolishly put what remains of its existing R&D into HD radio

Huh? They haven't spent anything on HD, except the one-time cost of the equipment.

The real investment being done by the major companies involve the internet and mobile. They've diverted personnel from spinning discs to social media (unless they have some who can do both). Most of the majors have their own cell phone apps, and have dedicated staff to updating web content several times a day.
 
Buckethead said:
In 2004 a radio station called Indie 103.1 broke The Arcade Fire in a big way.

Eventually the rest of the modern rock format started catching on. It took KROQ 6 months
before they started giving some spins.

Wait what?? According to Petros, Matt "money" Smith 'broke' arcade fire on KROQ before anyone else... :eek:
 
snelson said:
Buckethead said:
In 2004 a radio station called Indie 103.1 broke The Arcade Fire in a big way.

Eventually the rest of the modern rock format started catching on. It took KROQ 6 months
before they started giving some spins.

Wait what?? According to Petros, Matt "money" Smith 'broke' arcade fire on KROQ before anyone else... :eek:

I have no doubt that in one of his useless, high decible brain farts, Petros did say that. But KROQ has very little history in the last 7-8 years of playing bands that have not already gained notariety elsewhere. KROQ is not in the "breaking new bands" or "breaking new music" business.
 
ChannelFlipper said:
I think you are missing my point. Debt is attractive to owners because it is generally cheaper than equity.

The owners of a company, the shareholders, generally don't favor issuing additional shares, as that dilutes their equity.

That is why most companies, when given a choice, will maximize the debt they can carry before taking on more equity.

A company does not "take on" equity. "Equity" means "ownership position." If there are 100 shares in a company, then each one represents a 1% equity position in the company. If 100 more shares are issued, each share is now worth 0.5% of the company, a dilution in the equity of an existing shareholder.

What that "maximum" amount is often is judgmental based on the risk tolerance of management. Other times it is judgmental subject to the risk tolerance of those external to management, such as existing senior lenders or equity investors.

Or the existing lenders have put in place covenants as part of their loans that restrict further debt...

Knowing how the play the game is not the same as playing it well. That's why there are so many different management styles.

In the case of radio, executives saw that through consolidation, cost reduction and synergies of various markets and properties, they could squeeze increasing profit margins out each radio station, thereby justifying ever increasing valuations. But those increased valuations could not go on forever because there are only so much costs and efficiencies to be obtained, no matter how many stations one consolidates, and those who were last to find out were left holding the (devalued) bag when the bubble inevitably burst.

Generalizing, Your Honor.

First, out of 12 to 13 thosuands commercial stations, only a small percentage were part of large scale consolidation... the Clear Channels and Cumulus' of the business.

In the larger markets, many buyers thought that to be cought with only one FM in a market would make sales relatively difficult. So they paid prices above standard multiples, based on future revenue projections. Most of the companies did not acquire unmanagable debt, but t he ones that were risky were hurt by the economy and the changes in media usage of the late 2000's

In most cases, no bubble burst as most stations were not part of consolidation, or were just part of a local owner buying another station in their smaller market or nearby.

They over-levered.

Few are actually over-leveraged. In fact, one company built with creative financing, Cumulus, has grown through the period.

Any time major market participants in any market are overlevered like those in radio, the industry as a whole is bound to suffer because management has to make ever increasing payments to it creditors while dealing with substantially lower revenue.

Lower revenues are not the product of under or over leveraging. They are the product of the economy. Radio was not unique in having some players severely punished by the economy.

Radio has lost major existing talent due to lay-offs, does not have a pipeline of talent due to voice-tracking and massive syndication, and has foolishly put what remains of its existing R&D into HD radio, a concept the public has rejected in droves.

Technology has made voicetracking possible, and it would have happened with or without leveraged deals or consolidation. The PPM has caused a reevaluation of the role of talent today, so that's not a leverage issue, either.

And HD affects only about 12% of stations nationally, and was for the most part a one-time, pre-recession expenditure... and in large markets, a small one to boot. More is spent in a given few months on internet than overall has been spent on HD.
 
Ya right, Matt Smith broke Arcade Fire.
I heard he discovered them one night after they were in power rotation for 6 months on Indie.
 
Generally speaking I think KROQ's attitude is that a band can't be broken until they've played it so they tend to claim pretty much every good band that Indie broke.

Besides that, I just wanted to comment to see if David would ever not have the last word.
 
Buckethead said:
Generally speaking I think KROQ's attitude is that a band can't be broken until they've played it so they tend to claim pretty much every good band that Indie broke.

Besides that, I just wanted to comment to see if David would ever not have the last word.

Fuuny that you pint that out about KROQ. One year they had Spoon at their holiday concert and claimed they were introducing a new band....but Indie had been playing them for months already.
 
Indie had been playing them for years at the point.

KCRW as well.

It's a rather arrogant stance to think that it doesn't exists until it's been accepted into the world of top40 Alt.
 
Buckethead said:
Ya right, Matt Smith broke Arcade Fire.
I heard he discovered them one night after they were in power rotation for 6 months on Indie.

Petros repeatedly claims that Smith also "broke" Bright Eyes. Does anyone ever remember KROQ even playing Bright Eyes???
 
snelson said:
Buckethead said:
Ya right, Matt Smith broke Arcade Fire.
I heard he discovered them one night after they were in power rotation for 6 months on Indie.

Petros repeatedly claims that Smith also "broke" Bright Eyes. Does anyone ever remember KROQ even playing Bright Eyes???

never happened but they did playy at a couple of Indie events...as did Airborne Toxic Event, The Decemberists, etc., which I am sure KROQ and Money/Ptros would like to lay claim to.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom