ARE FORMATS BLURRED

[VERITAS DE VOCE]

You know, that last post was so entertaining, it got me thinking about the "blurry line".

Here's a thought: there are five basic formats (not preferences, just to keep that at bay) in Jesus radio

1. Christian
2. CCM
3. Religious
4. Inspirational
5. Conservative

Question: With the exception of CCM (because they can be CHR, AC and even UAC in one time slot), is this necessary any longer or should it be as any other business (e.g. painting, plumbing, taxes, construction, etc) and be targeted for what it provides and be know for who provides it?

Welcome your sage nuggets.

 

[jackd]

Speaking of that last thread...pretty sad when something gets yanked from the Christian Radio section of this message board. :

You pose interesting questions...I'm curious to see the replies.

 

[tillman]

The whole freaking thread got yanked? Wow. I didn't even notice. That's testifies to the thread's impact and usefullness, I guess. I didn't even read it beyond about 3 posts in because of all the endless quoting and logorrhea.

Thanks be to the mods for deleting it. What a waste of space. Seems every reply was less and less beneficial to the whole and more to the gratification of those wanting to be 'right.'

Anyway, yeah. On topic, I've always thought that the CCM formats are too blurred. You've got way too high a percentage of songs going for adds at all christian formats.

 

[passafistwastaken]

I think in regards to CCM formats that they're finally getting caught up with the times. Let's face it you have a alot of stations getting in on what hot and new and a lot of stations that are still holding onto radio that's ten years old. That's how Phillips Craig and Dean can be on the same station as Toby Mac. The insop Chart needs to be put out of its misery and replaced with the AC chart all around and the CHR chart needs to come to prominance industry wide. It's going to happen anyway why do Christian programers fight it??

 

[MikefromDelaware]

I think in regards to CCM formats that they're finally getting caught up with the times. Let's face it you have a alot of stations getting in on what hot and new and a lot of stations that are still holding onto radio that's ten years old. That's how Phillips Craig and Dean can be on the same station as Toby Mac. The insop Chart needs to be put out of its misery and replaced with the AC chart all around and the CHR chart needs to come to prominance industry wide. It's going to happen anyway why do Christian programers fight it??

Passafistwastaken, I may not completely understand what you are saying, forgive me, so help me clairify. Are you saying that many CCM stations are now throwing in some "secular" AC or CHR music to their lineup?

So we don't get off on some big thing about the use of the word "secular" I'm defining "secular music" as music (when you go to Borders or other non-religious music stores) that the CD's are not in the section with Religious, Sacred, Hymns, CCM, Urban Gospel, Country Gospel, Praise and Worship catagories, but are in the other sections. Or another way to define it, go to a Christian Bookstore and the artists NOT sold there being considered "secular" meaning non-religious.

I'm older than most of you so I'm not up on the current artist's so humor me, an example might be that, if I understand your point correctly, that a CCM station now is playing Sandy Patti, Michael W. Smith, Silverwind, Styper, Leslie Phillips, Twila Paris, (all Christian groups or performers) and then adding Celon Dion, the Beatles, Whitney Houston to the line up?

Frankly, if that is what you are saying, I'm disappointed to hear that. My guess is the non-comm CCM stations may have some problems when fund raising time comes around. As I had said in that previous thread, my guess is if a station took a survey of their financial supporters, they'd more than likely want a Christian only format and no mixing of the "world's" music to their format. What I've found interesting is I have some unsaved friends and they do not want to hear ANY Christian music at all, not even at Christmas time or Easter, so what makes anyone thing those folks are going to leave their AC or CHR station and go to the CCM/AC/CHR station?

Sometimes we believers hang only with Christians and forget how the unsaved look at our faith. They generally are not interested. So even if you got them to tune in, because you were playing a Celon Dion song, but as soon as you put on a Twila Paris tune, you'd lose them. Any how that's my thought, assuming I understood your point. Please feel free to correct me Passafistwastaken, if I didn't understand your thought.

 

[William_Yeager]

Here's what I'd like to see on Christian Radio:

Praise & Worship (for the few stations that only wish to play Praise & Worship music, regardless of sound)
AC
Hot AC (K-Love, Air1, and the WAY-FM network would all fall here, except possibly for Denver's WAY-FM)
CHR (WAYG, WAYK, WNAZ, ChargeRadio.com, etc.)
Alternative (The stations currently thought of as "Rock/CHR hybrids")
Rock (current Rock reporters that don't mix in significant amounts of Rhythmic or Pop music)
Active Rock (a.k.a "Loud"; would probably be limited to specialty shows for quite some time)
Rhythmic AC (think an Urban Gospel and an AC blended together)
Rhythmic (would probably be limited to specialty shows for quite some time)
Urban Gospel
Country (would probably be limited to specialty shows for quite some time)
Southern Gospel

If no one changed their sound, Hot AC would be the largest format, and either Alternative or CHR would be second. Rock and AC would each be fractions of their former selves, unless if AC eats most of the Inspo panel.

 

[passafistwastaken]

No,Mike I'm saying that their has been an industry wide shift from a Classically Inspo lineup with artists Avalon and Amy Grant to more CHR christian artists like Jeremy Camp and Mercy Me. Just take a look at the charts from 2003 and 2004 and you'll see that.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Thanks Passafistwastaken for the clarification.

Wouldn't it be great if the demand in the major markets was such that what William Yeager suggested would work where in a market like Philly there'd be a real variety of Christian music formated stations to choose from.

I live in market #75 (Wilmington DE) and only 23 miles south of market #6 (Philly). Wilmington has one CCM station (WXHL-FM) and an Urban Gospel station (WFAI-AM). Philly has a low powered repeater of WXHL, two Salem AM's, one (WFIL-AM) does Christian talk the other (WNTP-AM) Right wing talk, in nearby Chester PA (WVCH-AM) a Christian station AM that's mostly preachers (some decent national preachers) with some decent CCM music used as filler where they don't have a paid program, across the river in Camden, NJ (WKDN-FM) is Howard Camping's Family Radio. From a music point of view, WXHL is a CCM top 40 station, WVCH's music is CCM, but on the mellow side (more to my liking, but my guess is their demo skews older like me). I'd listen to that station a lot more if they didn't have all those preachers on. Basically it's all preachers except where a time slot is not filled then it's music. It's a commercial station, but they apparently make most of their money from the preachers.

Possibly in major market stations in the "Bible Belt" region maybe folks do get a more varied Christian musical choice.

 

[brian.marchand]

You forgot K-Love has a station on the New Jersey side of Philadelphia WKVP 89.5.

 

[jegrant]

What irritates me is that even when the AC/Inspo stations play an artist like Jeremy Camp, Stellar Kart, Hawk Nelson, etc. they feel they must play a "neutered" slowed down AC version of the song. While I guess this could be understood during the day, as stations may want to preserve a certain sound for those that use as background music at work - why not at least play the "normal" CHR versions of these songs after about 7 or 8 PM?

Also - I'd be interested to see how people might classify Fort Wayne's new remedy.fm (slogan: "We have the cure") - which is noticeably *NOT* on HD radio, only online. It is a sister station of WBCL at Taylor University.
They are a Christian station, but (apparently) will also play U2, Creed, and Evanescence (!). The actual website, http://www.remedy.fm/ is Flash-based, but if you just want to hear the stream, visit their player at http://www.remedy.fm/streaming_player/player.html .

Furthermore, why do some AC and CHR stations feel the need to stop the music (multiple times a day in some cases) for long-form talk programming like Focus on the Family or the various AFR programs? Our local AFR AC seems to carry extra talk programs not listed on the main AFR AC net schedule, and as a result, nearly every time I tune in, they're talking instead of playing music.

 

[radiosgreatest1]

WNYG on Long Island plays A/C,CHR Rock and even some urban contemporary. Listening to the station the mix sounds very good. Eventhough its AM the station really is doing some good things combining these formats.

 

[jegrant]

You're right. I have been taking a listen to WNYG online tonight, and they have a very wide, interesting mix. It might be the format that adds enough variety to AC that makes it listenable for those who dislike repetition.

The website is http://www.wnygspiritofny.com/ for those who'd like to give it a try themselves.

 

[justalurker]

Eclectic works, if it is consistent. Let listeners know what to expect and deliver it.

Any format that works outside of Christian radio should be able to be "converted" to a Christian radio format. Some formats may have a lack of content, and obviously the "shock jock" format would need to be sanitized for human consumption ...

We have a local (secular) station that has the "huge box of music" sound. It sounds like they grabbed every album they could get and play random cuts. When it was new it sounded odd (the format is anything goes?) but after a while people caught the concept ... and they listen. It isn't the number one station in the market but it has it's listeners.

Name a format ... I'm sure it could be done "in Christian" if someone was dedicated to the task. It would be easier to do AOR, easy listening or talk "in Christian" because that seems to be the majority of Christian stations. But I'm sure others can be done.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

It would be easier to do AOR, easy listening or talk "in Christian" because that seems to be the majority of Christian stations.

Part of what would drive the format, especially for the non-comms would be who are the financial supporters. My guess is those middle aged and older folks are the bigger contributors so their desires probably will be given a heavier weight. That might explain why more of the Christian formated stations are easy listening, mellower, preacher heavy, Christian talk. Harold Camping's "Family Radio Network" is an example, they play the Christian version of what used to be known as Elevator Music and many of the talk shows are with Harold Camping or others who have his Biblical point of view. His stations are not my cup of tea. Yet, they've got stations world wide, so someone is listening and more importantly supporting with their dollars that radio network and all the local stations that carry their programming. So if the younger listeners want a bigger voice in what your local CCM station plays, become financial members or supporters, then the PD will be more likely to take your ideas seriously. We all like to remember that a Christian radio station could or should be a ministry, but it is also a business that has bills to pay so they too have to have a bottom line or they go bankrupt.

I'd think that a commercial Christian station might be better able to do the eclectic format Justalurker advocates as they'd be able to show Aribtron numbers, hopefully, where they could say, see what a large piece of that covetted 12-49 age female audience we now have, because we play all sorts of Christian music.

Also, if your market only has one CCM station then I could see that electic format working as their is only one choice for the young CCM listener to tune to so why cut out some of your audience. I worked on an Armed Forces Radio Network station during the Viet Nam War. As we were the only radio station in town, we played all sorts of music, usually in block programming rather than mixed together, because the formats didn't go well together, example, the most popular format was the Top 40 show, then Country, then Soul. We even had a Classical Music show as in Beethoven, Mozart, etc. My point was there was no other option for the troops so you tried to have something on there for everyone. Granted there was only one Classical Music show, but we did have mostly Top 40, Country, and Soul as those musical styles reflected the largest population blocks of the military at that time, plus we aired sports supplied by the major American radio networks too. So the idea of progamming for more than one style of music, electic, isn't new and might work quite well depending on your local market. Isn't that what the "JACK" and "BEN" FM's are doing.

 

[neutralobserver]

You know, that last post was so entertaining, it got me thinking about the "blurry line".

Here's a thought: there are five basic formats (not preferences, just to keep that at bay) in Jesus radio

1. Christian
2. CCM
3. Religious
4. Inspirational
5. Conservative

Question: With the exception of CCM (because they can be CHR, AC and even UAC in one time slot), is this necessary any longer or should it be as any other business (e.g. painting, plumbing, taxes, construction, etc) and be targeted for what it provides and be know for who provides it?

I don't understand any of that, so I have no idea how to reply.

Part of what would drive the format, especially for the non-comms would be who are the financial supporters. My guess is those middle aged and older folks are the bigger contributors so their desires probably will be given a heavier weight.

There's another way to look at this....

Let's say that financial support from some demographic group will generally come from "x" percent of that group while from only "y" percent from some other. You can still get the amount you need from the "y" group by simply getting the size of that group to be large enough to produce it, and that's what's being done.

As far as I know.

I'd think that a commercial Christian station might be better able to do the eclectic format Justalurker advocates as they'd be able to show Aribtron numbers, hopefully, where they could say, see what a large piece of that covetted 12-49 age female audience we now have, because we play all sorts of Christian music.

No, it's exactly the opposite --- "eclectic" means you lose them all, not get them all!

And demo cells that are typically thought about (and bought) are along the lines of 12-24, 18-34, and 25-54 (including 25-44 and 35-54 within that).

Also, if your market only has one CCM station then I could see that electic format working as their is only one choice for the young CCM listener to tune to so why cut out some of your audience.

Because you lose them all. Even from the best-hearted, there is no such thing as "charity listening." Especially today, it's "please me right now or get none of my time!" Find and then target the biggest chunk of people that you can reasonably expect to gather under one umbrella and largely ignore the rest, or you will fail.

I worked on an Armed Forces Radio Network station during the Viet Nam War. As we were the only radio station in town, we played all sorts of music, usually in block programming....

That was a very different situation; there, you literally had an audience with no other options. Now, your audience has umpteen options...and umpteen options within each of those umpteen options!

So the idea of progamming for more than one style of music, electic, isn't new and might work quite well depending on your local market. Isn't that what the "JACK" and "BEN" FM's are doing.

No, not really. "Jack" definitely still has a target and is definitely programmed to that target; it's just one of a number of formats today where the target is not defined only by "partisans of (style of) music." It's a format that realizes that its particular target heard and enjoyed multiple genres as it was growing up and, accordingly, does not limit itself to one of them. Although there are plenty of musical "train wrecks," it's still a cohesive product because the audience does not consider those "train wrecks" to be...well, "train wrecks." It's all just "stuff they've known and liked."

There really is no Christian analogue.


...at least, not a successful one....

...at least, that I know of.

 

[anotherguyTN]

Part of what would drive the format, especially for the non-comms would be who are the financial supporters. My guess is those middle aged and older folks are the bigger contributors so their desires probably will be given a heavier weight. That might explain why more of the Christian formated stations are easy listening, mellower, preacher heavy, Christian talk. Harold Camping's "Family Radio Network" is an example, they play the Christian version of what used to be known as Elevator Music and many of the talk shows are with Harold Camping or others who have his Biblical point of view. His stations are not my cup of tea. Yet, they've got stations world wide, so someone is listening and more importantly supporting with their dollars that radio network and all the local stations that carry their programming. So if the younger listeners want a bigger voice in what your local CCM station plays, become financial members or supporters, then the PD will be more likely to take your ideas seriously. We all like to remember that a Christian radio station could or should be a ministry, but it is also a business that has bills to pay so they too have to have a bottom line or they go bankrupt.

I'd think that a commercial Christian station might be better able to do the eclectic format Justalurker advocates as they'd be able to show Aribtron numbers, hopefully, where they could say, see what a large piece of that covetted 12-49 age female audience we now have, because we play all sorts of Christian music.

In the case of networks like Family Radio and BBN the owners/management themselves are biased against CCM and could care less about reaching younger listeners except for ones who listen to their existing format. There may be a few younger listeners to those formats that were brought up thinking this is the only kind of Christian music that exists and they actually believe that idea, but they would be extremely rare. Along with that in the case of Family Radio there are enough problems with Harold Camping's bizarre teachings that I wouldn't recommend them even for a listener who may be looking for more conservative music. I strongly disagree with BBN's attitude toward CCM, but at least from what I've heard most of their programs are biblically sound.

AFR is the only network that I've heard make a transition from more traditional Christian music to AC CCM, (although they still lean softer on their regular network) but that was because they were never biased against CCM and they realized that they needed to change to keep the audience they were aiming for.

Also, if your market only has one CCM station then I could see that electic format working as their is only one choice for the young CCM listener to tune to so why cut out some of your audience. I worked on an Armed Forces Radio Network station during the Viet Nam War. As we were the only radio station in town, we played all sorts of music, usually in block programming rather than mixed together, because the formats didn't go well together, example, the most popular format was the Top 40 show, then Country, then Soul. We even had a Classical Music show as in Beethoven, Mozart, etc. My point was there was no other option for the troops so you tried to have something on there for everyone. Granted there was only one Classical Music show, but we did have mostly Top 40, Country, and Soul as those musical styles reflected the largest population blocks of the military at that time, plus we aired sports supplied by the major American radio networks too. So the idea of progamming for more than one style of music, electic, isn't new and might work quite well depending on your local market. Isn't that what the "JACK" and "BEN" FM's are doing.

I think that an AC CCM format with a wider range of music would be good, siimilar to the "70's, 80's, 90's and now" format that some AC stations do. However I'd think that some of the softer music that passed for CCM in the 70's and 80's that would sound more inspo today would need to be left out. I'd think that including classic Christian rock like Petra, DeGarmo & Key, etc. would be good, but most CCM stations seem to limit themselves to the past 10 years now, which I think is in part because that is all a lot of CCM listeners know about.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Along with that in the case of Family Radio there are enough problems with Harold Camping's bizarre teachings that I wouldn't recommend them even for a listener who may be looking for more conservative music.

Amen brother. I'd never recommend Family Radio to anyone, because of Harold Camping's bizarre techings. It amazes that his network of stations stays on the air, but apparently enough people are financing his endevour.

I think that an AC CCM format with a wider range of music would be good, siimilar to the "70's, 80's, 90's and now" format that some AC stations do.

I'd love to have a CCM station play the CCM music of the 70's, 80's, 90's and now. In my market, we have only 1 CCM and they play only current hits, possibly going back maybe 5 years. They are targeting the young audience and aren't interested in playing CCM gold unfortunately.

 

[R.D.P.]

I've read some of his "Various" statements and I found them to be unbiblical.  Thank God I'm unable to get Family Radio, in my market.  It's sad that they have two stations within a three hour drive of my hometown. (Birmingham Alabama and Columbus Georgia)

Their musical presentation is wonderful, from what I've heard a few years back, on their B-Ham station. (WBFR 89.5 FM)  I like the classic Hymns of the Church and the way the "Conservative" performers present them. 

As of late, I've been hungry for and been exclusively buying the "Conservative" Gospel performers.

There's something awesome and wonderful about listening to the great Hymns that still lead many lost souls to Jesus.

R.D.P. <><

P.S. The Bible Tract Ministry, I'm doing now, may have lead to my sudden change in musical taste.  It sure has caused me to become addicted to the King James Version of the Bible.  Can't seem to shake off that addiction, for some reason. 

 

[skippertthomas]

As an aging middle aged vet of Christian and Secular radio, Harold is an example of a once cutting edge, yet sound doctrined man, who found the hot spot in Christian support programming many years back and then found out he was stuck in a cultural Christianity and went to the 'odd and out their Theology' as methods changed from his type of radio.. Kind of like the culture of what dress socks are in for deacons.. Bus Ministry was hot and now is passe' in a major way (but still neat and used in smaller ways).. He is not well and does not listen to those who are left in his peer pool.. Dr. Graham was of the opposite.. Always seeking God's way to injecting anything new to the tried and true format.. Wow! I remember when Falwell wanted to 'boot' the boys for their 'rap and pop' outreach.. When popular, he jumped in and bragged about "DC Talk's" Liberty connections.... I was with Way-Fm from day one and felt (just me) we were more TRUE CHR then then now.. BUT, I think they are moving back into a CHR approach (Denver is a case).... My biggest concern is playing to the money audience and zip codes and lacking a hot dance/urban influence in Christian CHR.. I always called it XHR... But, the urban Bobby Brown followers pulled out of active involvment with the GMA and Christian Pop/Rock community... It almost felt like they didn't want white kids listening to urban and vise-versa... The human mistake.. I think we in Christian CHR (XHR) are too white and suburban.. It takes the two prong approach to our Mission in radio and makes it more of just a 'spirital vitamin' to our preferred zip code listeners and less of the 'cold cup of water' to the ones thirsty for "The Word".... We should be oozing to the masses, but have moved to our selective and middle and upper middle class suburbans... Just my view.... "Skipper T. Thomas" 8 years with Way and 2.5 with Radio-"U"...

 

[justalurker]

I think that an AC CCM format with a wider range of music would be good, siimilar to the "70's, 80's, 90's and now" format that some AC stations do. However I'd think that some of the softer music that passed for CCM in the 70's and 80's that would sound more inspo today would need to be left out. I'd think that including classic Christian rock like Petra, DeGarmo & Key, etc. would be good, but most CCM stations seem to limit themselves to the past 10 years now, which I think is in part because that is all a lot of CCM listeners know about.

Part of the problem with older music is that the production quality has changed. They just don't make them like they used to! (And that is good.) It would be nice to get a library going from 10-20 years ago all digitally remastered up to the production quality one hears today. There are exceptions ... but especially in the early days many artists just didn't have the money it took back then to sound they way they sound today with much cheaper tools.