Are Spots In Right-Wing Talk Shows Not Effective?

[davideduardo]

No, it doesn't end with the ad buy. There's the next ad buy. And "follow-up" with a client does not measure effectiveness. Certainly not at the local level with station reps talking to area merchants. Some guy's brother-in-law says "I heard you on the radio" and the guy thinks his ad's effective.

In today's world, even small businesses have the computer tools to analyze sales, inventory and expenses. If the hardware store advertises a special on Black & Decker tools, and they see an increase in sales they know the advertising worked; if the margin on the sales is enough to cover the cost of the ads and still leave a profit, they know the advertising was effective.

We used to say that in small markets and towns, the cash register was the ultimate ratings device. The car dealer could always tell the number of "ups" pre- and post-campaign and evaluate using our station. Today the metrics are much more precise for the local direct account.

And agencies and their clients carefully monitor product inventories, reorders, and such and know how a campaign is working. They also monitor share of voice and competitive campaigns, and look at all of these factors together.

You want to measure the effectiveness of radio advertising? Just count all top consumer marketers who don't use radio - especially those who were big users of radio a generation ago. All that's left, especially in right-wing talk, are bottom-feeders.

You are generalizing again. If you look at the "Rush stations" you will see that the established, heritage brands that have competitive signals are often in the top 5 billers in a market. The issue affecting traditional talk stations... conservative or mainstream... is that the demos are aging and Gen-X listeners are not using talk formats whether they are on the left, right or in the center.

As to clients, we see over time that there are shifts in the key categories. 30 years ago, an insurance ad was seldom heard and, of course, cellular phone ads were unknown. Today they are among the 3 or 4 biggest revenue categories. There is no "bottom feeder" characteristic such as you describe... just shifts in revenue categories.

 

[davideduardo]

You've never sold spots, have you?

No, they have not. They represent the "hey, mister, wanna buy some spots?" concept and believe that radio salespeople are about the same as used car salespeople. They don't recognize that direct selling is relationship based and that it takes multiple solution-based calls to bring a new client to a station.

And they have never answered objections.

I once called on a client who brought up one objection after another. After turning each into a sales point, the guy laughed and pulled out a trade magazine and showed me an article called "10 ways to get rid of media sales reps". He was trying them out! He became a long-term client, too.

 

[Avid Listener]

In today's world, even small businesses have the computer tools to analyze sales, inventory and expenses. If the hardware store advertises a special on Black & Decker tools, and they see an increase in sales they know the advertising worked; if the margin on the sales is enough to cover the cost of the ads and still leave a profit, they know the advertising was effective.

OK, Mr. Genius-who-knows-everything, if a hardware store advertises a special on Black and Decker tools on the radio, in a direct mail flyer, on the big sign outside their store, and several POP displays in the store, and mass e-mails to their customers who subscribed to their loyalty cards, which of those five things were the driving force behind any increase in sales?

 

[davideduardo]

OK, Mr. Genius-who-knows-everything, if a hardware store advertises a special on Black and Decker tools on the radio, in a direct mail flyer, on the big sign outside their store, and several POP displays in the store, and mass e-mails to their customers who subscribed to their loyalty cards, which of those five things were the driving force behind any increase in sales?

That gets back to the "I know half my advertising works... I just don't know which half".

However, the smaller direct account generally does not do multi-media advertising simultaneously.

We assume the signage and POP materials will be in place for any sale or special promotion item. And we assume the business owner is smart enough to figure out what is generating sales.

The classic multi-media campaign at the local direct level is the car dealer who may put the price-item stuff online and in newspapers, but who uses radio as Point of Purchase. The dealer has likely spent many years fine tuning the media mix, and knows what brings the best results. So when they try a different station for the radio part, they know how to evaluate the results as everything else is a known constant.

Advertisers will very clearly explain their media usage techniques to you. If you had ever sold radio time, you would know that this is a non-issue with them.

 

[FredLeonard]

No, I never sold spots. I've never sold cars or sexual services either. All sorts of things I have no interest in doing.

Write on the blackboard 100 times: Correlation is not causation. Christmas is coming. Store owner buys some spots. Sales increase. A guy with a store in the next block does not buy spots. His sales increase.

No wonder radio advertising doesn't work. People have the radio on but often are not paying much attention to it. Spots run in extended blocks so the station can run "commercial free" for the 45 minutes - and save money on hiring jocks to weave one or two spots at a time into programming. Ad agencies have mostly abandoned radio. Sales reps can still con a few local merchants into running bad spots. Let the client do his own spots. Make the call to action a phone number when most of the audience is in a car.

Radio advertising stopped being effective when agencies stopped hiring Barry Manilow to write jingles that people memorized and sang in the shower. Or stopped hiring funny guys to write bits with a sales message.

 

[TheBigA]

No, I never sold spots. I've never sold cars or sexual services either. All sorts of things I have no interest in doing.

Then why do you feel the need to lecture people who actually do? You don't know what you're talking about, and you just make yourself look stupid.

You'd do much better taking your circus to a board where you can't be called out for what you don't know. But keep on stepping in it. We all love to laugh.

 

[FredLeonard]

Then why do you feel the need to lecture people who actually do? You don't know what you're talking about, and you just make yourself look stupid.

You'd do much better taking your circus to a board where you can't be called out for what you don't know. But keep on stepping in it. We all love to laugh.

Selling is whoring and it takes a certain kind of person. One needs to be able to lie and manipulate easily. But the ability to do that does not guarantee an individual knows anything about managing a business and certainly is no preparation for learning to attract an audience. Stick to selling. You say people not in sales know nothing about it. Ok. But people in sales likewise know nothing about programming, journalism, music or any of the other elements that go into the on-air product.

There also some indication that people in sales are they type of people drawn to right-wing and authoritarian political views, which explains the pronounced lack of other viewpoints in talk radio.

Thank you for pointing out that you are in sales. That explains a lot.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

What a rude and crude post.

Some people can sell but don't have good skills at some other things.

Some people can sell and do other things even better.

I'm sure some one will come up with an exception, but the radio business is one where it is almost mandatory that you have sales skills, or you CAN NOT manage and you will not be given the opportunity to manage.

Selling can be a very good job that can allow you to demonstrate what a good and worthwhile citizen you really are. Yes, there are certain products that seem to need or allow cheesy sales people, but your generalization that "selling is whoring" is not very impressive.

Do keep in mind.... some people are 'forum whores'. Would you recognize one of those folks?

 

[FredLeonard]

What a rude and crude post.

Some people can sell but don't have good skills at some other things.

Some people can sell and do other things even better.

I'm sure some one will come up with an exception, but the radio business is one where it is almost mandatory that you have sales skills, or you CAN NOT manage and you will not be given the opportunity to manage.

Selling can be a very good job that can allow you to demonstrate what a good and worthwhile citizen you really are. Yes, there are certain products that seem to need or allow cheesy sales people, but your generalization that "selling is whoring" is not very impressive.

Do keep in mind.... some people are 'forum whores'. Would you recognize one of those folks?

And are you saying radio is somehow immune from cheesy sales people?

What type of product is immune in your view? Cars? Prescription drugs? Insurance? Stocks and financial services? What I describe is inherent in commission sales. Players in any system seek to maximize rewards (and minimize punishment). The commission sales system rewards lying, manipulation and general whoring.

 

[TheBigA]

Thank you for pointing out that you are in sales. That explains a lot.

I'm not now in sales. I've BEEN in sales. I've also been in many other parts of the business. I'm sure you have opinions on all of those things too.

Let me remind you of something you said in another thread:

But apparently you believe salesmen upon promotion to management are magically qualified to make programming decisions and to stick their nose into programming and tell people how to do a job they have never done - and never could do - themselves.

In your case, you believe someone who's never done sales is magically qualified to know how sales works and tell people how to do a job they've never done - and never could do - themselves.

Thank you for stating it so well.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

And are you saying radio is somehow immune from cheesy sales people?

What type of product is immune in your view? Cars? Prescription drugs? Insurance? Stocks and financial services? What I describe is inherent in commission sales. Players in any system seek to maximize rewards (and minimize punishment). The commission sales system rewards lying, manipulation and general whoring.

Fred: Let's have a heart-to-heart chat about sales.

Successful sales people have to be honest. To be successful you need for your existing customers and previous customers to give you good recommendations. Two people over a cup of coffee: "I guess I need to do a better job of advertising. This Fred guy has been calling on me and his story sounds good. I think he said your are one of his customers. Can I trust him?" Right then, it's do-or-die time for Fred. If you are a sneaky-thief-whore, that will be told over the cup of coffee and the sale won't happen. If you have been a good saleman and given good advice, and delivered what you promised, one of the coffee drinkers is going to make the sale for you.

I got into the business quite young, moved up the ladder, and began "trying" to sell before I was ready. I didn't have the "blood instinct". I couldn't day-after-day "go for the kill"... Ask for the order in a way that I could get it. Oh, I sold for several years, Fed my family doing it. But I wasn't good enough at it to do what I wanted to do. So I spent years doing other things where "Sign right here" selling was not part of the job.

30 years later I was attending to the burial of my Father. I had a farm to get sold. I found my self driving the same road I remember traveling 40 years earlier and parking outside a building where I walked in the door 40 years earlier and couldn't make the sale. I found myself talking with the son of the many from 40 years ago. He was an investor in Ozark farm property but I knew he wouldn't want to buy our farm. It didn't fit his pattern. I told him I was there to get his advice on how to sell my farm, and how much I should ask for it.

He didn't believe. He was sure I was there to sell him my farm and like his father 40 years ago he began telling my all the reasons why he wouldn't and couldn't buy. I made up my mind to go for blood. I was going to get the answer I came for. After after a few minutes I won the battle and he told me how to price my farm. I got in the car and headed back to my boyhood home, once again traveling that road of 40 years ago. That was the day I realized I was finally emotionally ready to go out and sell. Unfortunately, it was a bit late in life to walk away from a pretty solid employment situation.

I'm sorry you've become convinced that ALL sales people (on commission at least) are morally corrupt. If you are incapable of trusting ANY sales people, it going to be hard for you to achieve a whole lot of success in business on your own efforts. It's hard to be a success in business if you can't trust sales people enough to buy from them.

Out of curiosity..... what do you do?

 

[Avid Listener]

Advertisers will very clearly explain their media usage techniques to you. If you had ever sold radio time, you would know that this is a non-issue with them.

I worked for a company where I was responsible for buying radio time, along with all other advertising and promotional media. BS from air time salesmen was always a major issue. In that position, I was also responsible for selling our products and services.

 

[davideduardo]

Selling is whoring and it takes a certain kind of person. One needs to be able to lie and manipulate easily.

Other than pronouncements from the various leaders of North Korea, Iran and Venezuela, I have seldom heard such a vile and despicable lie.

What do you do that sets you above the millions and millions of Americans who sell something for a living?

And what makes you think that selling can't be done without lying? In fact, making a career of sales pretty much requires that you not lie and not cheat, or you will have no repeat business and eventually lose every potential customer and your job.

But the ability to do that does not guarantee an individual knows anything about managing a business and certainly is no preparation for learning to attract an audience. Stick to selling.

Yes, do not make waves or we will send you to a work camp in Siberia. Did you pick that up from Lenin or Stalin?

Surely you believe in the ability of people to lean and grow and progress?

Yes, a new seller may not be management material. But a proven seller with skills may become a sales manager, and then, with more experience, become a general manager. Most companies are set up to encourage this!

You say people not in sales know nothing about it. Ok. But people in sales likewise know nothing about programming, journalism, music or any of the other elements that go into the on-air product.

General managers don't need to know programming or engineering or even accounting. They have people who do that, and they have corporate support folks to guide and evaluate the programmers and engineers and accountants.

There also some indication that people in sales are they type of people drawn to right-wing and authoritarian political views, which explains the pronounced lack of other viewpoints in talk radio.

That's such BS as to not even merit a response. When is the last time you worked in radio? When is the last time you had a get together and socialized with other departments at a radio station? I'm betting it was back when all transmitters had a blue glow, if ever.

Thank you for pointing out that you are in sales. That explains a lot.[/QUOTE]

 

[davideduardo]

I worked for a company where I was responsible for buying radio time, along with all other advertising and promotional media. BS from air time salesmen was always a major issue. In that position, I was also responsible for selling our products and services.

I would bet that the BS artists are not, for the most part, in the business any more.

During the times I have had DoS as one of my positions, I stressed honesty and service. Lying to a client was grounds for dismissal, and giving service and advice was of the greatest importance. I would frequently turn down business that was not right for my stations and demos, and found that the local agencies often called me for advice or guidance on buying radio. We had a high percentage of renewal or repeat business and tried to never let a client down.

And, as much as I would like to say that I did better at those things, I have to admit that the people I sold against were also honest and ethical to a high degree.

Sure, there is a puffery in selling... "my jet engine is better than that Rolls Royce stuff"... but beyond a belief in the product, few good sellers lie or cheat.

 

[davideduardo]

No wonder radio advertising doesn't work.

That is one of your bigger fibs. You must think that if you say it over and over, some ignorant fool will believe it.

Everywhere I have worked, now and in the recent past, we have had about 80% renewal or repeat business. You don't get that if advertising is not believed to work.

People have the radio on but often are not paying much attention to it.

Advertisers know this. It is built into the price model. They also know people get up to pee during TV commercials. They even know that not everyone reads every page of a newspaper. But they know that repeated impressions do have an effect and do create sales. Otherwise they would not be back over and over and over.

Spots run in extended blocks so the station can run "commercial free" for the 45 minutes - and save money on hiring jocks to weave one or two spots at a time into programming.

An automated station can run one ad after ever song, or 7 ads after every 7 song sweep. Having live people there does not have any bearing on this, whatsoever. That's just an ignorant observation.

Ad agencies have mostly abandoned radio.

No, that is another big fib. Ad agencies are buying more radio this year than at any time in the last 5 years. It's just not the same category mix as before.

Sales reps can still con a few local merchants into running bad spots. Let the client do his own spots. Make the call to action a phone number when most of the audience is in a car.

That's a mint chocolate chip crappola sundae. Local merchants are using radio and radio's new media services extensively... about the only issue is that local merchants are in limited supply due to the chains and big box retailers.

And, you support a fib with another lie: despite what you say, most radio listening is not in the car. Listening, in fact, is about evenly divided between the car, the home and the workplace. So your contention that it is in the car is false.

Radio advertising stopped being effective when agencies stopped hiring Barry Manilow to write jingles that people memorized and sang in the shower. Or stopped hiring funny guys to write bits with a sales message.

That pretty much dates you to the 60's, as Manilow became a pop singer in the 70's and the Dick Orkin stuff was mostly faded in the late 70s'. You know, attitudes and tastes and media usage have changed quite a bit since LBJ was president.

 

[Small Market Guy]

Out of curiosity..... what do you do?

He trolls message boards when he's not burning crosses.

All sarcasm aside, he's obviously never even been in a radio station.

 

[davideduardo]

He trolls message boards when he's not burning crosses.

All sarcasm aside, he's obviously never even been in a radio station.

I believe he was a newsreader at a couple of 60's Detroit stations and also worked at, IIRC, KBTR in Denver before its news format failed.

 

[Small Market Guy]

I believe he was a newsreader at a couple of 60's Detroit stations and also worked at, IIRC, KBTR in Denver before its news format failed.

How could someone who worked in a big market like that have absolutely no idea how the business works?

 

[davideduardo]

How could someone who worked in a big market like that have absolutely no idea how the business works?

I dunno'. I suppose someone who calls Sol Taishoff, one of the founders and long-time owner and publisher of Broadcasting Magazine, a "ho" would not have a reasonable or even sane perspective on the industry.

Or it may just be that he was fired one time too many, and he went diving in the deep end of an empty pool.

 

[Avid Listener]

How could someone who worked in a big market like that have absolutely no idea how the business works?

At most companies I've worked in, including one radio station, most people knew how their department worked. Few understood the entire business. I'll wager that most of the top selling recording artists don't know how the machine that stamps out CDs works. I'll wager that Walter Cronkite couldn't disassemble and reassemble a broadcast TV camera. Howard Stern probably doesn't know how to put a satellite in orbit, not in the detail needed to actually build and launch a rocket.