Order of magnitude is ten times, so noise goes up by that much while radio staion power only go up by five, so what you hear is about right then add in the poor radio sensitivity on that. What he says is about right then.
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Are we underserved in nighttime AM power?
- Thread starter jetfli
- Start date
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scottwmro
Guest
Re: LONG!: Nashville AM technical history in a nutshell
Hi Doug!
Thanks for getting the technical and history part about my station, WMRO Correct!
Not posting much, I've been sick (no not the swine flu), I've got other problems that are wrong and not feeling well the past few days. I ask for everyone's prayers on here. :-\
Best to all and Happy Thanksgiving,
Scott & Lelsie Bailey at Magic 1560, WMRO-AM, Gallatin
w9wi said:
Hi Doug!
Thanks for getting the technical and history part about my station, WMRO Correct!
Not posting much, I've been sick (no not the swine flu), I've got other problems that are wrong and not feeling well the past few days. I ask for everyone's prayers on here. :-\
Best to all and Happy Thanksgiving,
Scott & Lelsie Bailey at Magic 1560, WMRO-AM, Gallatin
firepoint525 said:I believe WPFD in Fairview may have gone dark. I haven't been able to hear anything from them for a while, and I live here in Pegram, so I should be able to hear them, if they were still on the air. Not that anyone would miss them or anything! :
If they have they did not report to the FCC. www.fcc.gov-mb-audio-silence.html.url
Thanks MUCH to you and Watt for the additional information! My notes below:
I don't. Don't know of anything around here on 800.
In the very earliest days of broadcasting, ALL stations were on 833. Actually, they were on 360 meters which happens to be 833KHz. Frequency control was so poor that when broadcasting was assigned a band of frequencies (550-1350), a swath between about 800 and about 860 was left empty, presumably because the stations theoretically on 833 could be expected to drift pretty much anywhere in that range.
That would have been over by what, 1922? I don't know of any stations started in Middle Tennessee during that period.
Around 1926/1927, the Supreme Court ruled that the Commerce Department couldn't assign stations to specific frequencies. Most stations seemed to stay put. (I think they saw Congress furiously working on getting the regulatory authority they needed & figured any unwarranted moves would be undone by the new FRC) However, a few ended up on weird splits like 697KHz. Again, I don't know of any Middle Tennessee stations falling into this category.
The 1210=>1240 move happened on March 29, 1941. On that date the vast majority of U.S. stations changed frequency:
The point was to open up some clear channels for Canada and Mexico and to begin the population of the expanded 1510-1600KHz band. WLAC moved on this date from 1470 to 1510. WSM, being at the bottom of the band, didn't have to move.
I don't have any evidence for WSOK existing any earlier than 1951. WLAC's move from 1470 to 1510 didn't necessarily open up any new dial spots, because the existing stations on 1430 all moved to 1470 on the same date. WMPS in Memphis was on 1430 before the big move and would have (I would think) inhibited any new station on 1470 replacing WLAC. I would suggest a relaxation of the rules -- and WMPS's move to 680 -- are what made WSOK possible.
I think you're probably right about when WWGM went dark. They were operating when I came to town late in 1990, but they didn't last long afterwards. For those who don't know, the array at the corner of Ashland City Highway and Briley Parkway was WWGM's. WAMB-1200 is now using one of those towers -- the rest of the towers are presumably detuned as WAMB is non-directional.
I hadn't been aware of that one either. Don't know why they moved.
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D Dean said:
I don't. Don't know of anything around here on 800.
In the very earliest days of broadcasting, ALL stations were on 833. Actually, they were on 360 meters which happens to be 833KHz. Frequency control was so poor that when broadcasting was assigned a band of frequencies (550-1350), a swath between about 800 and about 860 was left empty, presumably because the stations theoretically on 833 could be expected to drift pretty much anywhere in that range.
That would have been over by what, 1922? I don't know of any stations started in Middle Tennessee during that period.
Around 1926/1927, the Supreme Court ruled that the Commerce Department couldn't assign stations to specific frequencies. Most stations seemed to stay put. (I think they saw Congress furiously working on getting the regulatory authority they needed & figured any unwarranted moves would be undone by the new FRC) However, a few ended up on weird splits like 697KHz. Again, I don't know of any Middle Tennessee stations falling into this category.
The 1210=>1240 move happened on March 29, 1941. On that date the vast majority of U.S. stations changed frequency:
- 730 or lower: didn't move
- 740-780: up 10KHz
- 790-870: up 20KHz
- 880-970: up 30KHz
- 980-1040: up 40KHz
- 1050: up 20KHz
- 1060-1450: up 30KHz
- 1460-1490: up 40KHz
- 1500: down 10KHz
The point was to open up some clear channels for Canada and Mexico and to begin the population of the expanded 1510-1600KHz band. WLAC moved on this date from 1470 to 1510. WSM, being at the bottom of the band, didn't have to move.
I don't have any evidence for WSOK existing any earlier than 1951. WLAC's move from 1470 to 1510 didn't necessarily open up any new dial spots, because the existing stations on 1430 all moved to 1470 on the same date. WMPS in Memphis was on 1430 before the big move and would have (I would think) inhibited any new station on 1470 replacing WLAC. I would suggest a relaxation of the rules -- and WMPS's move to 680 -- are what made WSOK possible.
I think you're probably right about when WWGM went dark. They were operating when I came to town late in 1990, but they didn't last long afterwards. For those who don't know, the array at the corner of Ashland City Highway and Briley Parkway was WWGM's. WAMB-1200 is now using one of those towers -- the rest of the towers are presumably detuned as WAMB is non-directional.
I hadn't been aware of that one either. Don't know why they moved.
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secondchoice said:If they have they did not report to the FCC. www.fcc.gov-mb-audio-silence.html.urlfirepoint525 said:I believe WPFD in Fairview may have gone dark. I haven't been able to hear anything from them for a while, and I live here in Pegram, so I should be able to hear them, if they were still on the air. Not that anyone would miss them or anything! :
This has to be the record for most call letters held by just one station!
And one set of call letters they only kept for a couple of weeks! Did they write all of their contracts in pencil? Which of these call letters were they operating under while they were Newschannel5 radio? Was it WMAK or WKDA?I think they were WMAK when associated with NewsChannel 5...been a while
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scottwmro
Guest
jetfli said:
Jet,
In simple terms, it hasn't always been this way. What has happen, Nashville, along with other markets have just simply gotten larger after WWII, because of the big building boom of the 70's, up to today. Outside WSM & WLAC, the smaller stations that did have nighttime like WSIX-AM, WKDA, WMAK, WENO, & WVOL, just could not get any more nighttime power due to in other markets, there were stations that had to protect, and we a bigger population that has moved out to the suburbs like Hendersonville, Gallatin, Lebanon, Mt. Juliet, Brentwood, Bellevue, etc, and these stations just couldn't power up to make it to the suburbs. The smaller AM's I have mention above have gone on to the most part to change calls, and formats to gear to the nighttime audience they can reach.
Example: The Original WKDA-AM 1240, is now WNVL-AM, and reaching an intercity Latino audience.
We have more people in this area than ever before. That is why the FM Band is a much better way of serving the masses of this market, and markets like ours at night, not AM.
My opinion is that the FCC and Congress would love to see the AM band go away all together, but they know people like me have money invested in it, so they can't just yet, but it will happen.
firepoint525 said:secondchoice said:If they have they did not report to the FCC. www.fcc.gov-mb-audio-silence.html.urlfirepoint525 said:I believe WPFD in Fairview may have gone dark. I haven't been able to hear anything from them for a while, and I live here in Pegram, so I should be able to hear them, if they were still on the air. Not that anyone would miss them or anything! :
I’m sorry. I tried to do it from memory try http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/status/silent.html
I'm actually enjoying being reminded of all the history of am in Nashville. I wish things were different. But daily radio fights a battle with 28 year old media genuises who not only think a lot of radio is "old media" but are pretty convinced only people on walkers listen to AM. And that's too bad.
But here's a way to look at it from the original question, "are we underserved." Nashville, at market #44 in size has 2 powerhouse 50kw's that cover the city. And while I've never met anyone who bought some baby chicks from WLAC's night time signal in the 60s, they along with WSM introduced a lot of people to Nashville.
Atlanta, market #7, has only 1 am covering the city at night. Even with modulation reduced for WSB-HD everybody has power reduction and in turn has made AM less attractive to a wide audience.
Allowing for the overall fact that to time buyers, radio is a 6am-7pm medium (after 7 it's tv for reaching people) and considering Nashville does not have an AM station showing in the top 10 Arbitron rated listing (WLAC is #11 WSM is #15), we probably have it better than many markets, but every city has a story to confirm of it being really hard to grow a signal while local cities are growing. I still get bugged that non commercial fm's can often apply and get translators easily and in effect greatly maximizing their product while AM is left to folks like us talking among ourselves remembering the good ole days.
For those of us inspired by AM radio and got into it from true entertaining stations, I take no pleasure in bringing this up. I wish more AM's could have stood stronger earlier to perhaps have prevented this kind of disappointment.
But here's a way to look at it from the original question, "are we underserved." Nashville, at market #44 in size has 2 powerhouse 50kw's that cover the city. And while I've never met anyone who bought some baby chicks from WLAC's night time signal in the 60s, they along with WSM introduced a lot of people to Nashville.
Atlanta, market #7, has only 1 am covering the city at night. Even with modulation reduced for WSB-HD everybody has power reduction and in turn has made AM less attractive to a wide audience.
Allowing for the overall fact that to time buyers, radio is a 6am-7pm medium (after 7 it's tv for reaching people) and considering Nashville does not have an AM station showing in the top 10 Arbitron rated listing (WLAC is #11 WSM is #15), we probably have it better than many markets, but every city has a story to confirm of it being really hard to grow a signal while local cities are growing. I still get bugged that non commercial fm's can often apply and get translators easily and in effect greatly maximizing their product while AM is left to folks like us talking among ourselves remembering the good ole days.
For those of us inspired by AM radio and got into it from true entertaining stations, I take no pleasure in bringing this up. I wish more AM's could have stood stronger earlier to perhaps have prevented this kind of disappointment.
I don't understand. Does this mean that they have their transmitters turned on, but are "broadcasting" dead air?Nashsound said:
I checked that link, and followed the link to radio-locator. Radio-locator still shows them as having a country music format!secondchoice said:
firepoint525 said:
That's exactly what he means.
By the way, largely off-topic but WNRZ-FM out in Dickson is back to 24/7 transmitter-on-but-broadcasting-dead-air again...
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Regarding the silent status, it'll only show up in the FCC's records if the station bothered to notify the Commission. It is not unusual for stations to "forget" to do so...
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scottwmro
Guest
w9wi said:
Doug,
What they are probably using as an "STL" is a ISP Connection. As you know, those go down all the time!
That really doesn't make much sense. Wasn't WNRZ only simulcasting WNAZ? That was what they were originally doing. Don't know much about recent years, since I have not listened to them lately. I can't see merely rebroadcasting another station's signal as being all that expensive, especially if the transmitters are still turned on, anyway.w9wi said:
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scottwmro
Guest
Speaking of nighttime power and undeserving an audience at night, I (WMRO-AM) only have 3 watts at night. It goes "maybe" about 4 miles, if WPAD and WQEW are not bouncing at each other. I have to protect WQEW-AM in NYC, KNZR-AM in Bakersfield, CA, and WPAD-AM in Paducah, KY.
Somebody told me WBOL-AM in Bolivar,TN was staying on all night, if so, they can't. They are a 250 watt daytime only station, on 1560, with no nighttime power. They are probably bouncing in there too, if they are on at night.
I've tested 3 watts during the day; it does quite well, if you’re in the car. Got it for almost 8 miles or so.
If I had the property to go directional, it would take 7 towers for me to just get 250 watts at night. 1560 is/or was a "Cuban Clear", but I'm protecting U.S. stations.
During the day, 1560 is a crowed channel, along with the first two adjacent channels on both sides of 1560. Lots of allocations were “shoehorned” in during the 60’s. WAGL-AM in Lancaster, SC has 50 KW, daytime only on 1560, directional, and during critical hours (two hours after local sunrise, and two hours before local sunset), they bomb me to death!
1560 is a bad, bad channel!
Somebody told me WBOL-AM in Bolivar,TN was staying on all night, if so, they can't. They are a 250 watt daytime only station, on 1560, with no nighttime power. They are probably bouncing in there too, if they are on at night.
I've tested 3 watts during the day; it does quite well, if you’re in the car. Got it for almost 8 miles or so.
If I had the property to go directional, it would take 7 towers for me to just get 250 watts at night. 1560 is/or was a "Cuban Clear", but I'm protecting U.S. stations.
During the day, 1560 is a crowed channel, along with the first two adjacent channels on both sides of 1560. Lots of allocations were “shoehorned” in during the 60’s. WAGL-AM in Lancaster, SC has 50 KW, daytime only on 1560, directional, and during critical hours (two hours after local sunrise, and two hours before local sunset), they bomb me to death!
1560 is a bad, bad channel!
firepoint525 said:
Yep, WNRZ was simulcasting WNAZ last I heard. Whatever method they were using to get the WNAZ programming out to the Dickson transmitter isn't working very well.
(and I strongly suspect "scottwmro" is right, they're using some kind of data circuit. But while it's certainly common for such circuits to go down once in awhile, it's not common for them to go down for several months!)
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I put the quotes below me...mostly I see the quote box first, then the message. Which way is right? and who is to say? (rhetorical)
I really appreciate all of the information W9WI and Watt AND everyone else has shared. To me, it all seems significant in historic proportions. Nashville, through radio, has become perhaps the first social network ever but don't get me started on that...Just thanks guys.
I wanted to respectfully counter the contention that "IP links go down all the time". While it is true that a standard, consumer grade IP connecion will suffer dropouts. The significance of each instance should be evaluated. Buying customized and optimized bandwidth packages, along with deploying the most reliable internal infrastructure can make the difference. We have arrived at the point where a schmuck can "do it", but it still takes a specific skill set to understand it, optimize it, and make it reliable. Buying bandwidth and paying for QOS guarantees takes money and leverage. None of the small operators I ever worked for would ever pay the premium for that. Reliable IP connections are mostly a cost evaluation. If the operation is serious, they will do what it takes. Otherwise you will see what has been described here. Be Well@
I put the quotes below me...mostly I see the quote box first, then the message. Which way is right? and who is to say? (rhetorical)
I really appreciate all of the information W9WI and Watt AND everyone else has shared. To me, it all seems significant in historic proportions. Nashville, through radio, has become perhaps the first social network ever but don't get me started on that...Just thanks guys.
I wanted to respectfully counter the contention that "IP links go down all the time". While it is true that a standard, consumer grade IP connecion will suffer dropouts. The significance of each instance should be evaluated. Buying customized and optimized bandwidth packages, along with deploying the most reliable internal infrastructure can make the difference. We have arrived at the point where a schmuck can "do it", but it still takes a specific skill set to understand it, optimize it, and make it reliable. Buying bandwidth and paying for QOS guarantees takes money and leverage. None of the small operators I ever worked for would ever pay the premium for that. Reliable IP connections are mostly a cost evaluation. If the operation is serious, they will do what it takes. Otherwise you will see what has been described here. Be Well@
w9wi said:
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