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ASCAP out of touch with reality

Walter Graff wrote: "...broadcasting others work for free is wrong..."

Then why are record companies and artists, large and small, continually begging radio stations, traditional and web-based, to play their music? Could it be that they want to expose/advertise their wares for free without having to pay for commercials?

Why is it that record promoters have a history of offering money to get airplay?

Tell you what. I'll be happy to pay a one million dollar royalty to play your song. But it'll cost you one million dollars to get that song played. And I'll pick what gets played on my radio station.

This is a symbiotic relationship. Greed knows no bounds these days.
 
There was once a record label called VOXX, that carried mostly garage-rock bands.
At the bottom of the label in small type it read, "Unauthorized hiring, lending and broadcasting of this record would be appreciated."
 
vsa said:
Walter Graff wrote: "...broadcasting others work for free is wrong..."

Then why are record companies and artists, large and small, continually begging radio stations, traditional and web-based, to play their music? Could it be that they want to expose/advertise their wares for free without having to pay for commercials?

Why is it that record promoters have a history of offering money to get airplay?

Perhaps I said it incorrectly: Playing music without the owners permission, not compensating them for play when expected, or assuming they want you to play their song without compensation is wrong. I have respectfully called publishers for permission to use their music in various non-broadcast fashion. I was surprised at how much they appreciated the call and even allowed me full use of some major works with no cost involved because I respected them enough to ask. If internet radio dies because internet radio people assume they can play what they want without permission, then so be it. If you think it's okay to go into a supermarket and steal with the reasoning that they charge so much anyway and are ripping you off, then you need to reevaluate your life. If a record company or artist begs you to play a song that has no copyright representation, then that is great. My references are to copyrighted work and renumeration of publishers, not any loose association to something that one thinks isn't fair so screw them. If only half the folks who post here knew how complicated the system is, they'd find out that it's not everyone who is corrupt, nor greedy. Does it need to be corrupt, or do some need to try to get as much as they can out of the pie? No, but that is not the topic. The topic is about paying to play copyrighted work. It's always easy to call anything one doesn't think is fair as greedy. And everyone else will follow blindly.
 
vsa said:
"Then why are record companies and artists, large and small, continually begging radio stations, traditional and web-based, to play their music? Could it be that they want to expose/advertise their wares for free without having to pay for commercials?

Why is it that record promoters have a history of offering money to get airplay?

Tell you what. I'll be happy to pay a one million dollar royalty to play your song. But it'll cost you one million dollars to get that song played. And I'll pick what gets played on my radio station."

Let me axe the bearer of this bad news this question: Do you, by chance, work in a REAL radio station? I didn't think so.

I'm sorry to be so sarcastic, I really am, but now that I have your attention, you need to take time to read the last long and lengthy post that took a lot of time to write so that people like you really understand what's going on, here.

First of all, while you as the apparent Wizard of Oz think that "the mass" audience in a crowded, competitive and revenue (remember that word) dependent radio market depends on radio stations (yours excluded) in playing what the MAJORITY of people want to hear, good luck in finding "All garage bands - All the time" and making a living for yourself and your staff. It will be a long, long day when it comes time to write out those checks.

People (you excluded) prefer what's popular. And while "garage bands" may be popular and have their fans, I assure you, by the time you rack up a library of 1500 "garage band songs that are unlicensed" (that few have ever heard,) you'll be flat broke. Maybe your friends will listen, but that won't sustain you in the broadcasting business.

We're not in the "Sheet Music" business anymore, but composers deserve to be paid, too. Artists, on the other hand, make money from the distribution of the music they "Perform" (not necessarily, make.) They are two and separate (with exceptions.)

To your next point: So, it will, sarcastically, cost a band, artist or label a million bucks to play "their" song on YOUR radio station, eh? Well, that's just dandy. Clear Channel tried that a couple of years ago and got nailed for it. Pay-for-play doesn't work and isn't allowed. And you'd have to be a hell of a radio station to get a label to pay you a dime. So, now, what?

Even if it were possible, you mean that if it came to your little pea-watt radio station and a flamethrower down the street owned by major big radio company, that you wouldn't be PO'ed if THEY (the competition) got that hot million dollar song and you didn't? Of course you would.

Suppose all labels took that attitude. You'd never get anything worth playing. Labels don't OWE you promotional copies of CDs. You, as a station, have to earn them and work for them ... or, go buy them like everyone else. If not, hang a satellite dish outside and hope your syndicator plays what you want when you want. (They won't and they don't.) The labels are looking for numbers, for major audiences, not in giving away "free" promos to your 10 listener station. Promotion costs them money. Lots of it. They owe us nothing to "promote." We promote because we want to serve what our listeners want. If we don't want to do that, we don't play the songs. We don't play the songs, we don't get the listeners. No listeners ... no business.

If the labels and radio took the approach that you've drawn out here for the world to see, labels would decide ONLY those stations they want airplay (and pay for it) and that would be that. You'd be in court in no time for playing copyrighted music without paying composer/publication rates that have long been a part of radio. Promotion is NOT free. Never has been. You pay royalties (5% of gross) every year for the privilege of playing those "promo" CDs ... and it adds up to a lot of money. Without it, good luck in finding good quality stuff that appeals to more than your tastes.

As for the crack about "record promoters have a history of offering money to get airplay?" Well, you forgot about hookers, drugs, gifts, trips and more ... but in reality, there are some much publicized, but isolated examples (and heavy litigation) that has caused radio stations and groups (several in New York of late) for such things.

I'd venture to say you've never met a promo person in your life, nor ever called to find out how you can get promo copies of CDs (most labels don't just send them to any station these days, anyway. You have to be an R&Ror other trade reporter or someone very influential in a market to do so.)

I've known many record people in many areas of the country. I have never taken a "bribe" and while consulting over 100 markets, never was offered one. I know, there have been ... but it's not as "regular business" as you think and I find that comment from you baseless and offensive to radio stations and to record promoters in general. I've had to pay for many a concert ticket because they don't come free for "playing my song" either.

Next, of course record labels want you to play their songs for free. What idiot wouldn't IF you're a music station? DUH! Without HIT music, you have no radio station. You want to play all indie music? Go for it! Sure, those artists deserve the play, no doubt! But all indie all the time doesn't work in running a profitable business. And you are, I imagine, in business, no?

Since they can't have you play their songs in lieu of commercials (Plugola, it's called, incidentally...) is against the law, and if you worked at a radio station, you'd know that, because you'd have to sign a waiver saying that you wouldn't do such a thing, or you'd get kicked to the curb if ever caught. And, sadly, a few did just that of late. But not everyone, or nearly as many as you think.

I totally agree that the CRB royalty is a sham. That's up to the labels to deal with in their negotiations with the artists. To soak webcasters for a BILLION dollars for $5-million in "administrative fees" is ludicrous.

But pay what's fair, not what you think is fair ... because you're way off base in your thinking.
 
oaktree said:
vsa said:
"Then why are record companies and artists, large and small, continually begging radio stations, traditional and web-based, to play their music? Could it be that they want to expose/advertise their wares for free without having to pay for commercials?

Why is it that record promoters have a history of offering money to get airplay?

Tell you what. I'll be happy to pay a one million dollar royalty to play your song. But it'll cost you one million dollars to get that song played. And I'll pick what gets played on my radio station."

Let me axe the bearer of this bad news this question: Do you, by chance, work in a REAL radio station? I didn't think so.

I'm sorry to be so sarcastic, I really am, but now that I have your attention, you need to take time to read the last long and lengthy post that took a lot of time to write so that people like you really understand what's going on, here.

First of all, while you as the apparent Wizard of Oz think that "the mass" audience in a crowded, competitive and revenue (remember that word) dependent radio market depends on radio stations (yours excluded) in playing what the MAJORITY of people want to hear, good luck in finding "All garage bands - All the time" and making a living for yourself and your staff.  It will be a long, long day when it comes time to write out those checks. 

People (you excluded) prefer what's popular.  And while "garage bands" may be popular and have their fans, I assure you, by the time you rack up a library of 1500 "garage band songs that are unlicensed" (that few have ever heard,) you'll be flat broke.  Maybe your friends will listen, but that won't sustain you in the broadcasting business.

We're not in the "Sheet Music" business anymore, but composers deserve to be paid, too. Artists, on the other hand, make money from the distribution of the music they "Perform" (not necessarily, make.) They are two and separate (with exceptions.)

To  your next point: So, it will, sarcastically, cost a band, artist or label a million bucks to play "their" song on YOUR radio station, eh? Well, that's just dandy.  Clear Channel tried that a couple of years ago and got nailed for it.  Pay-for-play doesn't work and isn't allowed. And you'd have to be a hell of a radio station to get a label to pay you a dime.  So, now, what?

Even if it were possible, you mean that if it came to your little pea-watt radio station and a flamethrower down the street owned by major big radio company, that you wouldn't be PO'ed if THEY (the competition) got that hot million dollar song and you didn't? Of course you would.

Suppose all labels took that attitude.  You'd never get anything worth playing.  Labels don't OWE you promotional copies of CDs.  You, as a station, have to earn them and work for them ... or, go buy them like everyone else. If not, hang a satellite dish outside and hope your syndicator plays what you want when you want. (They won't and they don't.) The labels are looking for numbers, for major audiences, not in giving away "free" promos to your 10 listener station.  Promotion costs them money. Lots of it. They owe us nothing to "promote." We promote because we want to serve what our listeners want.  If we don't want to do that, we don't play the songs. We don't play the songs, we don't get the listeners. No listeners ... no business.

If the labels and radio took the approach that you've drawn out here for the world to see, labels would decide ONLY those stations they want airplay (and pay for it) and that would be that.  You'd be in court in no time for playing copyrighted music without paying composer/publication rates that have long been a part of radio.  Promotion is NOT free.  Never has been.  You pay royalties (5% of gross) every year for the privilege of playing those "promo" CDs ... and it adds up to a lot of money.  Without it, good luck in finding good quality stuff that appeals to more than your tastes.

As for the crack about "record promoters have a history of offering money to get airplay?"  Well, you forgot about hookers, drugs, gifts, trips and more ... but in reality, there are some much publicized, but isolated examples (and heavy litigation) that has caused radio stations and groups (several in New York of late) for such things.

I'd venture to say you've never met a promo person in  your life, nor ever called to find out how you can get promo copies of CDs (most labels don't just send them to any station these days, anyway. You have to be an R&Ror other trade reporter or someone very influential in a market to do so.)

I've known many record people in many areas of the country.  I have never taken a "bribe" and while consulting over 100 markets, never was offered one.  I know, there have been ... but it's not as "regular business" as you think and I find that comment from  you baseless and offensive to radio stations and to record promoters in general.  I've had to pay for many a concert ticket because they don't come free for "playing my song" either.

Next, of course record labels want you to play their songs for free. What idiot wouldn't IF you're a music station? DUH! Without HIT music, you have no radio station. You want to play all indie music? Go for it!  Sure, those artists deserve the play, no doubt! But all indie all the time doesn't work in running a profitable business. And you are, I imagine, in business, no?

Since they can't have you play their songs in  lieu of commercials (Plugola, it's called, incidentally...) is against the law, and if you worked at a radio station, you'd know that, because you'd have to sign a waiver saying that you wouldn't do such a thing, or you'd get kicked to the curb if ever caught. And, sadly, a few did just that of late. But not everyone, or nearly as many as you think.

I totally agree that the CRB royalty is a sham.  That's up to the labels to deal with in their negotiations with the artists.  To soak webcasters for a BILLION dollars for $5-million in "administrative fees" is ludicrous. 

But pay what's fair, not what you think is fair ... because you're way off base in your thinking.

Wow. That's an aweful lot of verbiage in response to my trying to illustrate the value of radio airplay.

Were talking about PERFORMANCE royalties here. AM, FM (including HD) pay none. Internet, cable and satellite radio do pay. Internet radio has already been paying the most and their rates are going up 150% to perhaps 1200%, depending on whether or not their were paying per aggregate tuning hour or as a percentage of revenue.

I have never opposed paying PERFORMANCE royalties, based on the principle that someone's property is being played - even though there is substantial benefit to the performer in free airplay. The new rates are not merely unreasonable, they are on another planet.

All radio stations pay ASCAP, BMI and usually SESAC songwriter/publisher royalties. Those are not being discussed. Their rates are reasonable.

There are some "artists" who support the new PERFORMANCE rates to be collected by Soundexchange. These new rates will amount to several times the songwriter/publisher royalties. These performers. who get free advertising with radio airplay, somehow think their recorded performances are worth much more than the creation of the underlying song itself.

I won't bother to respond to your "...work in a REAL radio station..." and "...the apparent Wizard of Oz..." insults.
 
No, we're "not" talking about "performance" royalties at all. It's about "artist & performers" royalties that only webcasters for now have to pay at exhorbitant rates.

We should not have to pay everybody in the food chain, while AM and FM radio pays only PART of the load with COMPOSER and PUBLISHERS royalties, which they have for 80 years.

I'm sorry about the verbiage and I did not mean to inspire an insulting tone, for which I apologize. It seems, however, that you don't get the meaning of royalties and "music licensing."

Licensing has long been a part of terrestrial radio and always will be ... just as it should be for Internet and satellite. Many do not agree, but that's the law long spoken.

It's the new "performERS royalties" that are a problem and are not fair and equal in any way, shape or form.
 
oaktree said:
No, we're "not" talking about "performance" royalties at all. It's about "artist & performers" royalties that only webcasters for now have to pay at exhorbitant rates.

We should not have to pay everybody in the food chain, while AM and FM radio pays only PART of the load with COMPOSER and PUBLISHERS royalties, which they have for 80 years.

I'm sorry about the verbiage and I did not mean to inspire an insulting tone, for which I apologize. It seems, however, that you don't get the meaning of royalties and "music licensing."

Licensing has long been a part of terrestrial radio and always will be ... just as it should be for Internet and satellite. Many do not agree, but that's the law long spoken.

It's the new "performERS royalties" that are a problem and are not fair and equal in any way, shape or form.

Apology accepted. Other than some confusion over definitions, I think we're pretty much in agreement. Much ado about nothing.
 
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