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ATSC 3.0 + NTSC FM Audio (both in same 6MHz channel)

kfbkfb

kfbkfb

Jampro enables Franken FM and ATSC 3.0 operation | InBroadcast

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This technology raises another issue:
An NTSC FM audio signal in ch 6 WITHOUT an ATSC 3.0 signal (resulting in
just another FM radio station, perhaps, if this is approved, maybe the
NTSC audio would be allowed to use the FM Stereo radio stereo format
rather than the NTSC Stereo TV stereo format, thereby offering stereo on
regular FM radios).


Kirk Bayne
 
The FCC could add channels 198-200 (87.5-88.1 MHz) and conform to the standard global FM band specifications. Those non-comm allocations would take priority over RF 6 DTV, making TV second priority between FM allocations. That should take some pressure off the non-comm frequencies!
 
You can't even call it NTSC, because AFAIK all FrankenFMs are using 75 kHz deviation with MPX FM stereo (or mono), rather than 25 kHz deviation with MTS TV stereo according to the now-defunct NTSC spec. Some even have RDS.
 

NTSC Tint Errors (20+ years to fix?) - Videokarma.org TV - Video - Vintage Television & Radio Forums

NTSC Tint Errors (20+ years to fix?) Television Broadcast Theory
www.videokarma.org

My history with color TVs:
1969 Sears (no auto tint), 1975 GTE Sylvania (GT-Matic auto tint), 1983 Zentih (System 3 auto tint), 1984 Emerson (no auto tint), 1989 to 2015 various Sony (no auto tint), 2006 to 2007 Funai [Sylvania/TruTech] (no auto tint).

Seems like the "best guess" type of TV receiver auto tint began in the late 1960s and began to fade away in the early to mid 1980s.


Kirk Bayne
 
If "They" want to be an FM station, they should be required to go through the same allocation/auction procedure the rest of the FM band goes through.
No room for an analog FM @ 87.7(5) with this Boise Ch 6 ATSC 1.0 signal. The 88.1 just clears it.

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kfbkfb said:
My history with color TVs:
1969 Sears (no auto tint), 1975 GTE Sylvania (GT-Matic auto tint), 1983 Zentih (System 3 auto tint), 1984 Emerson (no auto tint), 1989 to 2015 various Sony (no auto tint), 2006 to 2007 Funai [Sylvania/TruTech] (no auto tint).

Seems like the "best guess" type of TV receiver auto tint began in the late 1960s and began to fade away in the early to mid 1980s.
Click to expand...
And yet, here you are expounding on the wonders of ATSC 3.0?
No Jackie, don't karate chop Kirk again!!
 
IMHO, there's a fair chance that ATSC 3.0 will follow the path of AM stereo and not catch on.


Kirk Bayne
 
boiseengineer said:
If "They" want to be an FM station, they should be required to go through the same allocation/auction procedure the rest of the FM band goes through.
No room for an analog FM @ 87.7(5) with this Boise Ch 6 ATSC 1.0 signal. The 88.1 just clears it.
Click to expand...
IIRC, a little of the ATSC 3.0 "error budget" is used up by adding a (USA format) FM stereo signal to ATSC 3.0, ATSC 1.0 can't stand having a little of the upper sideband sliced off to make room for a (USA format) FM signal.

One thing that just occurred to me - maybe apply a high pass filter to the 87.7 MHz FM signal, filter out the lower sideband and just transmit the carrier + upper sideband (would probably add some distortion to the demodulated audio, but perhaps some kind of audio pre-distortion could reduce this), I haven't done any bandwidth calculations to see if this would allow ATSC 1.0 to have an FM signal added at 87.7MHz

I emailed the company offering this ATSC 3.0 + FM system asking if it would work with FM HD radio - so far no answer.


Kirk Bayne
 
kfbkfb said:
One thing that just occurred to me - maybe apply a high pass filter to the 87.7 MHz FM signal, filter out the lower sideband and just transmit the carrier + upper sideband (would probably add some distortion to the demodulated audio, but perhaps some kind of audio pre-distortion could reduce this), I haven't done any bandwidth calculations to see if this would allow ATSC 1.0 to have an FM signal added at 87.7MHz
Click to expand...
That's not the point. If these stations had their way, they wouldn't transmit a video signal at all. They're now using ATSC 3.0 because it's the only legal way for them to keep their analog FM radio signal on the air. Not because they actually care about getting TV viewers.
 
From a larger perspective, AFAIK, USA radio listening is declining and adding one more FM radio station that can't be received on some FM radios doesn't seem to me like a good investment.


Kirk Bayne
 
kfbkfb said:
IIRC, a little of the ATSC 3.0 "error budget" is used up by adding a (USA format) FM stereo signal to ATSC 3.0, ATSC 1.0 can't stand having a little of the upper sideband sliced off to make room for a (USA format) FM signal.

One thing that just occurred to me - maybe apply a high pass filter to the 87.7 MHz FM signal, filter out the lower sideband and just transmit the carrier + upper sideband (would probably add some distortion to the demodulated audio, but perhaps some kind of audio pre-distortion could reduce this), I haven't done any bandwidth calculations to see if this would allow ATSC 1.0 to have an FM signal added at 87.7MHz

I emailed the company offering this ATSC 3.0 + FM system asking if it would work with FM HD radio - so far no answer.


Kirk Bayne
Click to expand...
ATSCV1 mutes at anything in the channel at --15dbC...V3 doesn't mute until -1.... 14db difference ...you could mask filter V1 to 4.5 MHz but the FM carrier at same level would kill TV rcvrs... technically impossible to do it with V1..
 
Perhaps this has already been answered, but could a station with a Franken FM setup run separate programming on the channel 6 TV portion from the FM portion on 87.7?
 
Any (rating service?) estimate of how many FM radios can tune in 87.70MHz?

It still seems like a poor investment to have to put an ATSC 3.0 DTV station OTA on VHF 6 just to free up a little spectrum space to put another FM station OTA, which isn't guaranteed to be receivable on all FM radios (unlike all other FM signals).


Kirk Bayne
 
As far as I can remember I haven't had an FM radio that couldn't get 87.7. and I'd use it at times to pick up audio from WPSD NBC 6 in Paducah, KY before the digital conversion. I also used it for MP3 transmitters on my older cars before I had anything with an auxiliary jack or Bluetooth.
 
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