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Audio Cuts Sound Bad

We have a new format on station A. We are using a standard computer card for output. I am legally blind, have never been known for having a golden ear. I am beginning to hear some audio that seems totally distorted and crap like. This with the $5 Radio Shack speakers i found at Goodwill (clearly made by someone else with a magnet so heavy the small speakers outweigh a gallon of milk).

I can play anything in WAV and it sounds great. I have even found cuts in mp3 that are tolerable but the majority of mp3 cuts are distorted and hashy. I learned when CD's came out that they are mastered with excessive high end perceived or real. This is another factor but not the main.

The record companies are providing an mp3 player and download utility to download current songs. What are the other available methods of receiving good copies of current music other than Wal mart?

Thanks in advance.
 
ChiefEngineer said:
I can play anything in WAV and it sounds great. I have even found cuts in mp3 that are tolerable but the majority of mp3 cuts are distorted and hashy. I learned when CD's came out that they are mastered with excessive high end perceived or real. This is another factor but not the main.

First observation: When I dug into the art of ripping CDs, editing the audio, and producing CDs for people who requested them (church sermons and lectures), I ran into some problems, faced a learning curve and had to claw my way through fact and fiction. There is a lot of FOLK LORE out there about how CDs work. On the issues of CDs having excessive high end, I would let it be known (pretend at this point:) announce that you are from Missouri, and challenge with: "Show me!!!"

I assume people like me do not have the ability to download these mp3's lest an epidemic of piracy develop. I would be willing, and I suppose there are others who also lend a helping hand. Tell me how I can get my hands on a small number of these mp3 files and I will listen and evaluate. My ears may be better than yours, my ears may be worse than yours. Hopefully my ears play in the same league that the ears of your listeners play in.

Send me a Personal Message and we will work out a method of me getting a few tracks.

GRC
 
Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:
Send me a Personal Message and we will work out a method of me getting a few tracks.

I would be glad to do the same. I'll bet that when we look at a waveform display of the distorted tracks we will be able to see why they sound that way.

One other point - is the distortion appearing only when monitoring the air signal, or can it also be heard in the program bus? If the former, something in those cuts may be causing problems with your processing, STL or transmitter. If the latter, perhaps the sound card is being driven into clipping by some cuts. To prevent that I like to see cuts normalized to no more than -1 dBfs.

Dale H. Cook, Market Chief Engineer, Centennial Broadcasting, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html
 
We have recently added several current selections. one way to listen to an mp3 is to download it or record it from one of the free mp3 methods on Billboard's charts. They rotate which songs are downloadable for free and provide a player that pops up.

Mpe player is a consortium of record companies. Mediabase 24/7 is another. Both use downloads from record companies to provide the music to radio station at no cost. They both have passwords. If you are with a radio station you can register for the mpe player. http://plaympe.com/v4/faq/faq_player.php It took an hour when i forgot my last password. You can select genre when you register.

One song that I note with issues is Kelly Clarkson's Stronger. The high points of the chorus are the parts where I note the problem. My new speakers with some apparent dynamic range and listening in the studio are the reference. Once it hits the air chain it seems squished into submission in a way that is less objectionable. Listening is not through the air chain but into what appear to be an excellent set of speakers. These are roughly 6 inches tall, 4inches wide,and 4 inches deep. The room is such that it is acoustically good for listening.

My reference to equalization and perceived issues has to do with older songs especially. When I compare the wav files of REO Speedwagon's Keep On Lovin You 1981, Fleetwood Mac Hold Me 1982, Supremes Love Child 1968, Hendrix Hey Joe 1967 to current music in mp3 form as opposed to wav files I hear what I note as a perception of high end to the point it is annoying.

Leaving equalization for another day because the underlying problem isn't the high end. It is distortion that affects all the music and makes the high end more distorted, adding to my perception. I note this more easily on mp3 product. Not all are notable, but many, most, seem to be.

I don't normally spend time listening to music. Through an outreach we are doing with station A our Christian group is now playing lots of current music (and someone has to make sure the words that don't fit what we do are edited out). I have gotten closer to the music that I have in years. Noting that any setting on the computer out into the console is very touchy before distortion appears, only on the newer mp3 music, I started looking for the reason.

When I pull any older song up in adobe audition I note a similar wav pattern to the current music. I don't see a great change between wav and mp3 in a stereo view. Some of the mp3's are near the top of the rail as if they were recorded too hot. Does this mean the companies distribute the music this way? Listening on mpe player would be an indication, then using the download feature.

On the Clarkson song Stronger I even went in and reduced the level as it was near the rail. This did nothing to improve the sound. It was still hashed but at a lower level. The dynamic range in the studio and instruments are seemingly gone.

I have never had a problem squishing the music at processing but normally I like to hear a good signal going in.

My perception of a cleaner sound is even on phil spector wall of sound recordings compared to current top 10 music. Stronger is the one that I first noticed this on. I am listening to all files on a standard computer with internal sound card fed through a Dynamax analog console to a small amplifier then to speakers.
 
ChiefEngineer said:
Some of the mp3's are near the top of the rail as if they were recorded too hot. Does this mean the companies distribute the music this way?

Possibly. Someone may be normalizing the music in the MP3s without understanding what they are doing. On some consumer sound cards a file normalized at or very close to 0 dBfs may clip. I never hear that because we use only professional cards (mostly Digigram, plus a couple of Antex) in the studios. I use semi-pro cards (Tascam) at home and on my laptop for any critical listening (the Tascams have a headphone jack and volume control so I can use my reference headphones).

ChiefEngineer said:
On the Clarkson song Stronger I even went in and reduced the level as it was near the rail. This did nothing to improve the sound. It was still hashed but at a lower level. The dynamic range in the studio and instruments are seemingly gone.

That is true of much current music. In waveform view it looks like it was processed with a lawnmower - all peaks are clipped to the same level. That this goes on may be indicative of:

1) Producers and studio engineers with hearing damage who cannot clearly hear what they are doing.

or:

2) Producers and studio engineers with no formal training.

Dale H. Cook, Market Chief Engineer, Centennial Broadcasting, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html
 
All depends,

Badly clipped audio will cause a "ringing" and distorted sound to be much more noticeable on mp3's, particularly at low bitrates.

The main reason why today's CD's and re-issued titles sound this way and are mastered so hot:

loudness war, much like radio's own loudness war's...except the goal is to be the loudest CD in the changer/song on your player.

perfectdeclipper.com can help restore some of the sound quality...and new audio processors are out, like the Omnia.9 that can "undo" most of the bad stuff that's done in the mastering lab...but...overall...it's sad, but we just need to get used to the fact that today's music doesn't sound, or is produced like music WAS.

Cuz, we're OLD.

:)
 
ChiefEngineer said:
We have a new format on station A. We are using a standard computer card for output. I am legally blind, have never been known for having a golden ear. I am beginning to hear some audio that seems totally distorted and crap like. This with the $5 Radio Shack speakers i found at Goodwill (clearly made by someone else with a magnet so heavy the small speakers outweigh a gallon of milk).

I can play anything in WAV and it sounds great. I have even found cuts in mp3 that are tolerable but the majority of mp3 cuts are distorted and hashy. I learned when CD's came out that they are mastered with excessive high end perceived or real. This is another factor but not the main.

The record companies are providing an mp3 player and download utility to download current songs. What are the other available methods of receiving good copies of current music other than Wal mart?

Thanks in advance.

Hey Chief. I am the PD of two stations in addition to my IT duties. All (large) labels provide songs in linear .wav and .mp3... If a PD is using the mp3, he or she just isn't going to any trouble to get the uncompressed version.

Typically, a rep will email you the mp3 as an attachment for you to listen to. Then, if you request the official link, it has a .wav and a .mp3 download option. I HATE playing mp3 and do it as a last resort. When I do, I tag it and as soon as I can get the .wav, I replace it.
 
For about six months or so, I've been messing with an on-line radio site, The Renegade Roadhouse. http://therenegaderoadhouse.com/ My friend and I have a current budget of practically zero beyond streaming and music licensing.

We don't use a very sophisticated automation program or employ any audio processing units, so the mp3 files I upload to the automation server have to be massaged by me, using SoundForge. And, yes, the audio on CDs over the past ten years is compressed til heck wouldn't have it! MP3 files from Amazon (I don't use iTunes as it isn't compatible w/SoundForge, or at least I haven't found a way) have the same tendencies...generally the older the remastering date, the better the audio quality and the less likely the waveform looks like a brick wall or was scalped by a lawn mower.

Luckily for us we are 95% oldies based, that is, songs recorded before 2000 so we don't have to put up with the loudness wars that has infected today's recording industry.

I can't say we have the greatest sounding site, but I think watching the levels, adding a little extra compression to the song files that came from vinyl and other features available in SoundForge help to make our audio sound pretty respectable.

If you have a radio station with a real budget, you might want to check out Dave Scott's http://www.uncompressedmusic.com/
If we were sourcing our music again, that's where we'd go.
 
The Kelly Clarkson tune on CD is clipped to begin with. Distorted to begin with. And ripped a MP3 at 320 KBPS, which sounded very bad here. And this was noted by looking at the waveforms on Sony Sound Forge and hearing the audio on several different systems. Source here is a bad sounding one.
 
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