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AudioVault vs Prophet

K

Khafre

Guest
Worked on AV for years, starting using Prophet lately, what a difference!

AV on the way out or what? A cluster in my town just dropped AV for Prophet and they aren't Clear Channel either.

Opinions?
 
> Worked on AV for years, starting using Prophet lately, what
> a difference!
>
> AV on the way out or what? A cluster in my town just dropped
> AV for Prophet and they aren't Clear Channel either.
>
> Opinions?
>

My two cents, and I am a MediaTouch station, there are a couple reasons that I would switch to Prophet, that I think most people consider. 1. Cheaper, Prophet is agressive on price. 2. Larger installed base. Problems get discovered and fixed sooner. 3. Customer support. Cheaper and more responsive. 4. Voice-tracked talent. If a talent has access to a Prophet system, they can voice track for you. We'd have to buy a $500 license and pay support (to the tune of $300+ a seat) to have a remote voice tracker.
 
Prophet has very awesome tech support.. Very quick, Ive always got thru to them on the first time, and never had an issue getting my problems when they did come up resolved.

<P ID="signature">______________
Lenks
Program Director/Music Director
X Music Online
The X
Today's Best Music
http://www.xmusiconline.com/</P>
 
> Worked on AV for years, starting using Prophet lately, what
> a difference!
>
> AV on the way out or what? A cluster in my town just dropped
> AV for Prophet and they aren't Clear Channel either.
>
> Opinions?
>
Any system which must have the WIN.INI file modified with cryptic ya ya everytime you need to change automation programming is CRAP! Every time we add a new program at one of my stations which uses the Vault, we have to spend hours chasing down BE tech support. Then they usually spend a couple of hours trying to figure out what the last tech did. Then you have to listen to them complain about your dial up PCanywhere connection and how they really don't have time for this......
AV is great for stations which use live assist mode.....for the small, automated station it is a nightmare.
 
> Prophet has very awesome tech support.. Very quick, Ive
> always got thru to them on the first time, and never had an
> issue getting my problems when they did come up resolved.
> AMEN on that.i dumped scott studios ss32 for Nexgen 2.best system i have ever used and i've had a few thru the years.Simian??,hey that's like for home dj stuff.and that prophet support AWESOME they talk to you not down at you.Scott had some of the rudest people i've ever dealt with and they rob you with that high price support...
 
> AMEN on that.i dumped scott studios ss32 for Nexgen 2.best
> system i have ever used and i've had a few thru the
> years.Simian??,hey that's like for home dj stuff.and that
> prophet support AWESOME they talk to you not down at
> you.Scott had some of the rudest people i've ever dealt with
> and they rob you with that high price support...
>


I admit I use NG 101 on my web station, but Prophet's support treats me no different than one of the big guys, they always answer questions, heck I sent them an email at 3am once and had a reply at 6am!!!! That's top notch support in my opinion.

Ive delt with other automation systems and never had that kind of personal support. <P ID="signature">______________
Lenks
Program Director/Music Director
X Music Online
The X
Today's Best Music
http://www.xmusiconline.com/</P>
 
> > AMEN on that.i dumped scott studios ss32 for Nexgen 2.best
>
> > system i have ever used and i've had a few thru the
> > years.Simian??,hey that's like for home dj stuff.and that
>
> > prophet support AWESOME they talk to you not down at
> > you.Scott had some of the rudest people i've ever dealt
> with
> > and they rob you with that high price support...

Never had a problem with Scott Studios....except for my owners NOT paying their bills and thus Scott not being able to help until payment was received...(which I was always PISSED at the owners/GM about...how the HELL can I do a job when they tie my hands by not paying the bills?) Dave Scott even offered me a job once but then commented "I probably cant afford you"...he was right...I could not see taking a 50% pay cut BUT I thanked him for the offer... :)

> I admit I use NG 101 on my web station, but Prophet's
> support treats me no different than one of the big guys,
> they always answer questions, heck I sent them an email at
> 3am once and had a reply at 6am!!!! That's top notch
> support in my opinion.
>
> Ive delt with other automation systems and never had that
> kind of personal support.

Well in the beginning (back in 98/99) PSi was not so great in customer support...I called support about a problem in CFS (Win3.1 version)...
Took them a FULL Day to get back with me and they always left a message and then when I called back in, it took 2 hrs to get them to call back again...I learned after six months of this to punch the digit that denoted I WAS OFF AIR...never had a problem after that....plus when I went to the classes in Neb, I got to know a few of the folks there personally....that helped since I figured out their phone system and could hack my way into support level 2 through a back door...wish I had kept all those back door numbers now...

NexGen today is much better than CFS Wizard and the early NexGen version were...
even though I liked the CFS Wizard Win3.1 version..it was easy to figure out your problems on your own at times...since I knew understand the script files (running an old TAG BBS years ago helped understanding DOS batch files!)...
I actually corrected some issues in my system without calling support...
The major pain was doing the DST update...had to halt the audio server and have the jock play a CD or use the Emergency Ctrl Rm screen...I just hated being there at 2am to do that!!! NexGen (and Scott) does it on its own!!!
 
Many companies use Prophet/NexGen that aren't Clear Channel because it's pretty solid stuff.

I worked with Wizard and then Nexgen and watched Prophet's support gradually improve to being pretty darn good these days. And I positively LOVE NexGen.

Unfortunately, I work with AudioVault these days.

I hope someone from BE is reading this thread:

Prophet has you guys beat from a design standpoint and then completely slaughters you when it comes to support.

Call Prophet support at 1pm on a weekday and talk to someone in a call center that can help you. Call BE at 1pm on a weekday and talk to an answering service or some lady in the building that condescendingly takes your name and number. You're lucky to get a call back on the same day from AV.

The only good thing about AV I have to say is that I have yet to call with an off-air emergency. On the other hand, there are C O N S T A N T annoying, goofy, quirky little problems.

AV100 might have been cool for it's time...but NexGen blows doors off of Audiovault.

Stick to transmitters, you do them well.

I feel better, yes, thank you.
 
> AV100 might have been cool for it's time...but NexGen blows
> doors off of Audiovault.

I've got to agree.

Worked on AV for 6 years usually problem free, but Nexgen is like a Rolls Royce of features and abilities.
 
Scott had some of the rudest people i've ever dealt with
> and they rob you with that high price support...
>
Not really what I wanted to hear because next week we get the 'puters in for a new install, going from Maestro to SS32. Our AM is heavily automated to the tune of 2 BT16.4's and 1 SRC32. After a long night of testing contact closures, the last thing I want is some pissant being rude to me. Lets hope some things have changed since then.
 
> Not really what I wanted to hear because next week we get
> the 'puters in for a new install, going from Maestro to
> SS32. Our AM is heavily automated to the tune of 2 BT16.4's
> and 1 SRC32. After a long night of testing contact closures,
> the last thing I want is some pissant being rude to me. Lets
> hope some things have changed since then.

We've been running SS32 for close to a year, and I've never been treated rudely by Scott support. Probably like any customer support organization, the rude people tend to get discovered and rooted out over time. I've been lucky and never encountered one at Scott. Frankly, Dub Irvin at Scott is one of the most polite individuals I have ever met.

OTOH, I have had trouble from time to time just getting through on the phone to Scott. I get the "unable to take your call" message more than I should for the support that we pay for.
 
> Any system which must have the WIN.INI file modified with
> cryptic ya ya everytime you need to change automation
> programming is CRAP! Every time we add a new program at one
> of my stations which uses the Vault, we have to spend hours
> chasing down BE tech support. Then they usually spend a
> couple of hours trying to figure out what the last tech did.
> Then you have to listen to them complain about your dial up
> PCanywhere connection and how they really don't have time
> for this......
> AV is great for stations which use live assist mode.....for
> the small, automated station it is a nightmare.

Hahaha. Gosh, it ain't that bad. We're fortunate that one of the developers is a active station alum though.

AudioVAULT is *very* powerful; i.e. almost everything can be configured: screens, buttons, labels, behavior. But I think it is best configured by someone who has been fully trained by BE. I haven't fully looked into Prophet, etc., but from a UI point-of-view AV seems better -- the interfaces are unclutted and more like a real cart machine.

I've developed my own automation add-on for AV, and I can attest that it is possible to interface it with any music database/scheduling system.

taylorengineer, did you know that WUOG has no working automation and uses iTunes(!!!) to play back cuts on-air?
 
>>I haven't fully looked into Prophet, etc., but from a UI point-of-view AV >>seems better -- the interfaces are unclutted and more like a real cart >>machine.

Good analogy, because working with AV is much like replacing motors and clearning and adjusting heads...editing *.ini files?!? How does that part of the UI compare?

Within the main CR window in NexGen you can: voicetrack, edit the log, change the cue tones, edit segues, plus drag-drop or assign audio to a host of buttons on top of the screen for instantaneous playback.

Can't do any of that in AV without popping back and forth between multiple screens or opening multiple programs.
 
> > Any system which must have the WIN.INI file modified with
> > cryptic ya ya everytime you need to change automation
> > programming is CRAP! Every time we add a new program at
> one
> > of my stations which uses the Vault, we have to spend
> hours
> > chasing down BE tech support. Then they usually spend a
> > couple of hours trying to figure out what the last tech
> did.
> > Then you have to listen to them complain about your dial
> up
> > PCanywhere connection and how they really don't have time
> > for this......
> > AV is great for stations which use live assist
> mode.....for
> > the small, automated station it is a nightmare.
>
> Hahaha. Gosh, it ain't that bad. We're fortunate that one
> of the developers is a active station alum though.
>
> AudioVAULT is *very* powerful; i.e. almost everything can be
> configured: screens, buttons, labels, behavior. But I think
> it is best configured by someone who has been fully trained
> by BE. I haven't fully looked into Prophet, etc., but from
> a UI point-of-view AV seems better -- the interfaces are
> unclutted and more like a real cart machine.
>
> I've developed my own automation add-on for AV, and I can
> attest that it is possible to interface it with any music
> database/scheduling system.
>
> taylorengineer, did you know that WUOG has no working
> automation and uses iTunes(!!!) to play back cuts on-air?
>
We still don't have Prophet up and going at WRAS either.... I think WREK is the only Atlanta noncomm using digital storage.(WCLK may have a system - I'm not sure.) The new file server just got stuffed and sent to us last week. We will be up and going soon.....probably first(even before on air)use will be for internet streaming.
OK....so you guys can write the INI files.....I can't get anything out of BE concerning INI routines/language etc. The techs can't even figure out what the other techs have done half the time. Seems like there would be some standard routines for sat operations....I never asked AV to start the coffee and flush the toilet!!I agree, the user interface is good....better than most. For live assist, the Vault is great!
Just a tidbit....your Tech buddy beta tested the Vault at WGKA,with Eathel Holley. I took over that system,after WGKA was sold,and even got to shake the chicken bones at it once or twice. Back then, there was only the Digilink and Phantom available.....the Vault was quite a system in those days!!
 
> >>I haven't fully looked into Prophet, etc., but from a UI
> point-of-view AV >>seems better -- the interfaces are
> unclutted and more like a real cart >>machine.
>
> Good analogy, because working with AV is much like replacing
> motors and clearning and adjusting heads...editing *.ini
> files?!? How does that part of the UI compare?
>
> Within the main CR window in NexGen you can: voicetrack,
> edit the log, change the cue tones, edit segues, plus
> drag-drop or assign audio to a host of buttons on top of the
> screen for instantaneous playback.
>
> Can't do any of that in AV without popping back and forth
> between multiple screens or opening multiple programs.
>
I have never seen a system where you go into WIN.INI to modify function.
 
> I have never seen a system where you go into WIN.INI to
> modify function.

FYI, it's AUDIOVAU.INI... ;)

About the INIs; yes, it's cryptic. If I were to design the system, I would use XML-based configuration (which is more readable), and I would build a GUI-front end with all of the options selectable, to create the configuration file.

But, you know, one advantage of the INIs is that you don't have to worry about the talent messing with the configuration. AVAir is somewhat configurable through menus in the application though.
 
> Good analogy, because working with AV is much like replacing
> motors and clearning and adjusting heads...editing *.ini
> files?!? How does that part of the UI compare?

Haha. I wouldn't make *that* comparison, since once it is configured, it doesn't require periodic maintenance (except if your satellite/automation requirements change).

> Within the main CR window in NexGen you can: voicetrack,
> edit the log, change the cue tones, edit segues, plus
> drag-drop or assign audio to a host of buttons on top of the
> screen for instantaneous playback.
>
> Can't do any of that in AV without popping back and forth
> between multiple screens or opening multiple programs.

See, that is the beauty of the AudioVAULT system; everything is specialized for the task at hand. You have AVAir for on-air playback, AVRPS for record/playback, AVDual for playback into record, AVProd, AVScheduler, etc.

AudioVAULT doesn't try to cram everything in one window. According to Fitts' Law of target acquisition, the time needed to make a selection is related to the size of the target and the distance. This is why the buttons in AudioVAULT are generously sized and grouped together. Also, the menus are configurable for whatever tasks are to be performed, but this does require expertise with the system and configuration time.

It's like the difference between production mixers and air consoles. You want the air console to be simplified, with large faders, prominent buttons, and a simple display. For a production mixer, you expect extra functionality -- like panning, effects and group control -- but the user needs more training and you budget for potentially more set-up time.
 
> We will be up and going soon.....probably first(even before on
> air)use will be for internet streaming.

Awesome. It's about time for the streaming.... I presume you've convinced the legal department that it is okay.

We're working on building a new streaming system to try to handle the load from sports; current system chokes at about 250 listeners. We'll probably add an extra week of archives too.

> OK....so you guys can write the INI files.....I can't get
> anything out of BE concerning INI routines/language etc. The
> techs can't even figure out what the other techs have done
> half the time. Seems like there would be some standard
> routines for sat operations....I never asked AV to start the
> coffee and flush the toilet!!I agree, the user interface is
> good....better than most. For live assist, the Vault is
> great!

The one complaint I have about the automated mode is that, if you play a cut with live assist and switch to automated, you have to click the "Auto Segue" button otherwise it will stop. So, what's happened often is that the operator manually starts a prerecorded program, leaves the station unattended, and when the program finishes, the station goes silent. Then the silence alarm activates, engineering staff are called, and we have to start the automation.

We'll end up configuring a spare AV machine to be activated by the silence sensor with a backup event file in case of operator error, main computer dying, automation system dying, etc.

> Just a tidbit....your Tech buddy beta tested the Vault at
> WGKA,with Eathel Holley. I took over that system,after WGKA
> was sold,and even got to shake the chicken bones at it once
> or twice. Back then, there was only the Digilink and Phantom
> available.....the Vault was quite a system in those days!!

Cool. I presume that it was an AV100 system.... it's amazing to me how much of the processing had to be handled by the proprietary hardware (like MP2 decoding), but that goes with the hardware limitations of the era. I heard that the transfer speed between Vaults was something less than realtime -- and now I grow impatient when an hour-long cut takes a few minutes to transfer!
 
> > I have never seen a system where you go into WIN.INI to
> > modify function.
>
> FYI, it's AUDIOVAU.INI... ;)
>
> About the INIs; yes, it's cryptic. If I were to design the
> system, I would use XML-based configuration (which is more
> readable), and I would build a GUI-front end with all of the
> options selectable, to create the configuration file.
>
> But, you know, one advantage of the INIs is that you don't
> have to worry about the talent messing with the
> configuration. AVAir is somewhat configurable through menus
> in the application though.
>
You don't have to worry about ANYONE messing with the configuration....and BE can damn sure count on the tech support fee being paid!
What is(are)the advantage(s)of changing configurations this way?
 
> You don't have to worry about ANYONE messing with the
> configuration....and BE can damn sure count on the tech
> support fee being paid!

And AV is a leased system, so you have recurring license fees too.

> What is(are)the advantage(s)of changing configurations this
> way?

Well, er, it's easier from a programming standpoint. It is a pure Windows program, and there are built-in methods in Windows libraries for accessing INI files. Nowadays, you're more likely to see XML being used for configuration, but since AV is an old program, they probably want to maintain compatibility between versions.

When you're developing a complex program that is very customizable, you need a way to specify the customizations. Take a customizable logging format, for instance. Such a feature would be required if you want to interface the system with third-party tools that have their own format. The easiest way from a programming standpoint is to specify a property like:

LOG_FORMAT = "%CUT_NAME%|%mm%/%DD%/%YY%|%HH%:%MM%:%SS%
"

You could, of course, create a graphical interface created to generate this string, but if you have a gazillion options, you're looking at a lot of work. Plus if anything changes in the specifications between releases, as a developer, you'd have to update all of that. And even if it did have a graphical interface, it would still need books and such to explain how to use it.

If you have only, say, 10,000 customers, it can make more sense to train experts to handle configuration, and BE offers courses on how to set up the system.

There probably will be a better configuration tool sometime. For my graduate research project, I developed a complex program that composes music based upon the current condition of the Internet. The mapping of "Internet performance events" to sounds, tempo and global key is entirely specified in an XML text file, which for a complex musical composition, balloons to an enormous size. The program works as is, if you can write the XML file.... The next phase of development is to create a separate program to make the sound composition files. Likewise, there ought to be a program to edit the AV INI files.
 
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