Barrett Media: KLOS ratings

[K.M. Richards]

Am I the only one that thinks the actual talent of most modern DJs has gone way down? Very few have unique characteristics and personalities like the ones I grew up with in the 70s and 80s and they certianly don't over-prepare for the show. They seem like robot DJs that are just programmed to the format, pre-tape their generic spots, and move on to their better-paying side gigs.

I have noticed that same decline, and I have to wonder -- especially after reading the responses from Mike and BigA -- whether that perceived lack of talent, lack of preparation, etc. is the fault of the jocks or the restrictions that have come from changes in listeners' expectations.

It is overwhelmingly obvious to me that I couldn't do an airshift today the same way I did decades ago. I have just enough quick-wittedness to freewheel through afternoon drive or nights without much prep ... or, more correctly, I used to be able to do that. But, to quote that comeback song by the Monkees from the mid-80s, "that was then and this is now" and the farther removed "now" becomes from "then", the less I would fit in.

As I often joke, I am a dinosaur. The only reason I stay in the business is that my programming skills are still enough in demand that I make a comfortable living doing it (partially because I am not fool enough to try to do current-based formats). But even that ability had to be honed over time, at multiple stations, and as has been said, that "farm team" concept is long gone.

But we are indeed at a point where a lot of the non-music content can be "phoned in" and doesn't necessarily need to be topical. But if that's what it takes to delay the erosion of listeners going to other platforms, common sense dictates that we do.

The observation is relevant as a comparison to radio of the past. The real issue is that the audience doesn't seem to want the "old way" anymore.

 

[michael hagerty]

I read all the time about this "farm system." I never worked in small markets. Ever. I grew up in a Top 25 market, and was hired by the station my family listened to when I grew up. I was convenient. That's how a lot of hires are done now. Even 20-30 years ago, stations wouldn't pay moving expenses. So moving from state to state wasn't easy.

I don't know anything about you, but your references always suggested you were younger than I am (not hard to do, anymore).

In the era Flip's discussing, that's how it was done. Some guys' paths were more meteoric than others. I mentioned The Real Don Steele above. His first gig was technically in L.A., on a suburban station no one listened to. So he did Yakima-Omaha-Portland-Oakland to get back to L.A.

Charlie Van Dyke had a similar start---at age 14 on a "good music" station in suburban Dallas with low ratings. Gordon McLendon saw potential and put him on KLIF. He never had to work a small market. He went Dallas-Detroit-San Francisco-San Diego-Los Angeles-Chicago-Los Angeles-Dallas-Boston-Phoenix-Los Angeles.

But Van Dyke's contemporary in that era of morning men, Robert W. Morgan? Wooster, Ohio-Port Hueneme, California-Carmel-Monterey-Watsonville-Monterey-Fresno-Sacramento-Oakland-Los Angeles-Chicago-Los Angeles. In those days, you could call Fresno and Sacramento "small markets", so, apart from six months in Oakland, he'd only worked small markets before L.A.

I never got moving expenses until I went to TV. I just saved up while working in one place for the move to another and kept the possessions manageable.

 

[TheBigA]

I have noticed that same decline, and I have to wonder -- especially after reading the responses from Mike and BigA -- whether that perceived lack of talent, lack of preparation, etc. is the fault of the jocks or the restrictions that have come from changes in listeners' expectations.

I always ask this question when people bring up the talent issue: Name all the big name, popular music DJs on Spotify or Apple music. They don't exist. When most people tune in for music, that's what they want. Sirius is struggling with that issue, because they see themselves as a traditional radio service on a digital platform. But even there, it's hard to find the type of presentation that CF is talking about. Radio has changed. It used to be the only place to hear music without buying it. Now, hardly anybody buys music. It's all disposable, music and presentation.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I always ask this question when people bring up the talent issue: Name all the big name, popular music DJs on Spotify or Apple music. They don't exist. When most people tune in for music, that's what they want.

My point exactly, A. The "lack of talent" Flipper described is driven by formatic restrictions based on audience expectations.

 

[TheBigA]

In the era Flip's discussing, that's how it was done. Some guys' paths were more meteoric than others.

But then that was really the only choice. People moved for money and visibility. To play for a bigger house. Today, you don't need to move for that. In fact, the money thing became less of an issue in the 90s. I know a lot of people who stayed in medium markets because they had families and were paid enough to raise them there. That was an option that was probably less available in the 60s. Once you had national radio companies and internet distribution, that changed the whole ballgame. You didn't have to leave if you didn't want to.

 

[michael hagerty]

But then that was really the only choice. People moved for money and visibility. To play for a bigger house. Today, you don't need to move for that. In fact, the money thing became less of an issue in the 90s. I know a lot of people who stayed in medium markets because they had families and were paid enough to raise them there. That was an option that was probably less available in the 60s. Once you had national radio companies, that changed the whole ballgame. You didn't have to leave if you didn't want to.

Yeah. And you have (apart from a few morning superstars) less money in the big leagues now than you did then.

In the 70s, a jock in San Francisco would jump at a gig in L.A. because it was significantly more money.

I was offered a job at KNX nine years ago. The money was better than what I was making at KFBK, but not epically so, and once you factored in the cost of housing and other realities, it made sense to stay put.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I was offered a job at KNX nine years ago. The money was better than what I was making at KFBK, but not epically so, and once you factored in the cost of housing and other realities, it made sense to stay put.

As is well known, I did most of my on-air work and early programming work in the next market north of L.A., Oxnard-Ventura (where I was born and raised) with the significant addition of my time at Y97 in Santa Barbara.

So I actually still lived in my childhood home until my mid-30s (and inherited part ownership of same when my maternal grandmother passed away ... making it rent-free). But for the past 30+ years, I have lived in the San Fernando Valley, in an apartment that has proven to be near-perfect for me, in an older rent-controlled building (my rent has gone up all of $420/month between the time I moved in and now). But if it weren't for the rent control and my being able to stay put, Mike's point would be hitting me hard in the face by now.

Those kinds of "breaks" on the cost of living in a major market are very few and far between now.

 

[TheBigA]

In the 70s, a jock in San Francisco would jump at a gig in L.A. because it was significantly more money.

Today, any DJ with any level of talent wants, at bare minimum, the ability to VT in other markets. But the real goal today is national syndication. And you can do national syndication from anyplace. No need for a million dollar studio. So that's where the bar is set. Everyone wants to be Ryan Seacrest.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Everyone wants to be Ryan Seacrest.

But they don't want to work as hard as he did to make his career happen. That's another factor to consider.

 

[KilowattKat]

After a 4 hour morning show that is all talk with no music, maybe the rock listeners to KLOS want the opposite after Heidi and Frank end their show at 10. Let the music finally play with no DJ.interruption.

 

[K.M. Richards]

What I find mildly humorous (bearing in mind that I don't listen to the show, much preferring music in the morning) is that, more than five years after Frosty Stilwell was "furloughed", iHeart's podcast library still has the trio in half-hour segments ... but only up to July 2019.

But the header says all three are doing mornings at KLOS.

 

[TheBigA]

But they don't want to work as hard as he did to make his career happen. That's another factor to consider.

Other great examples are Steve Harvey and Bobby Bones. Both with iHeart. Bongino & Levin on the talk side. Neither did local radio.

Yes they're hard workers, but they also have a team of people working for them. That's something some talents don't think about.

Being in radio today can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. It can be as simple as being a clerk in a WalMart, where you work scheduled hours and do exactly what the boss tells you. Or it can be part of your own media company where you have employees and are seen and heard nationally on radio & TV. Bobby Bones even has a record contract. It is whatever you want it to be. That's what I tell college students thinking about careers.

 

[RayydioLA]

In the current economy, your belief about "paying for itself" is not factual. And the station seems to be doing just fine without a person in that shift.

There are many music formatted stations that have found that non-Boomer listeners really don't want and need people talking over song intros any more. We get our time and temperature and news updates on our phones, and can find all the news about artists we like there, too, and faster than that information gets to a local DJ.

Sure. But you run a Radio message board so it would be nice if you would advocate for people rather than machines being able to make a living. That's been the big problem in the industry for more than 20 years and it's getting worse. It's not just in "the industry" either. It's everywhere. There is not "one job per person" populating the U.S. (let alone the world) as there should be.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Sure. But you run a Radio message board so it would be nice if you would advocate for people rather than machines being able to make a living. That's been the big problem in the industry for more than 20 years and it's getting worse. It's not just in "the industry" either. It's everywhere. There is not "one job per person" populating the U.S. (let alone the world) as there should be.

David helps run a radio board. It is not his job to advocate for more jobs for the out of work DJs of the world.

 

[yeoldeschool]

Once you had national radio companies and internet distribution, that changed the whole ballgame. You didn't have to leave if you didn't want to.

I always considered Art Bell one of the preeminent examples of "local jock goes national then does colossal show from least likely location." For those unfamiliar with this, Bell hosted every Coast to Coast broadcast from his private home, an off-grid double-wide trailer with several modifications and outbuildings in a shabby suburban development in the Nevada desert. The best view of it can be had in this drone video Bell made prior to his passing:

His home broadcast studio, visible here, here, and here, was just a tiny corner of his ham radio room, as this pulled back photo reveals -- see left side. (His ham radio collection grew over the years.) His network actually installed a legit Ku-band uplink station in his back yard (visible in the drone video, and up close here and here) so he could beam his show to its Medford NOC via satellite.

Talk about cushiest job ever!

 

[Delete My Account]

I read all the time about this "farm system." I never worked in small markets. Ever. I grew up in a Top 25 market, and was hired by the station my family listened to when I grew up. I was convenient. That's how a lot of hires are done now. Even 20-30 years ago, stations wouldn't pay moving expenses. So moving from state to state wasn't easy. A lot of people I knew did their training in college radio. That was the sandbox where you can make mistakes. Today, people use podcasts or internet radio to do the same thing. But the other factor is the money. People today can make more money creating YouTube content. I know a DJ who left on air because his wedding DJ business made more money. So there are a lot of factors.

I do think that for a number of people, not having had that smaller market experience hasn't been a good thing. For me, it was a humbling experience I learned much from. You have to understand how real people live. I got into radio because of music, and because I loved the medium itself. Working in the small towns where working class people had real concerns and did actual labor, while I sat in a studio, and learning what they valued in local radio and what they needed and how to serve them was important for my maturing as a broadcaster and a human being.

I worked with (not terribly long ago) a talent selected for a talk show in a top 20 market. He had about 7 years experience behind the scenes as a producer for one particular, very polarizing talent. He'd moved on to another line of work, which he also struggled at, then when the talent that mentored him passed, he reached out and was brought back into the station, I suspect as an olive branch to that hosts' loyal and grieving audience. He was promoted three times in roughly a year, despite showing no tangible results of improvement in the ratings, and being difficult to work with, and completely uncoached by the PD. He was paired with veteran talent, very skilled broadcasters, in a format that requires an informed knowledge of current events. When challenged by, or given advice or tips from his producers, or co-hosts, he would routinely simply brush it off by informing them he worked with this impressive talent, and learned radio from him and knows what he's doing. No one could get through to this guy, and his image and presentation became that of an elitist with a passive-aggressive view of anyone he was paired with, to the detriment of the show, the station and its ratings.

When I encounter this "type" of broadcaster, who seems to pop up in corporate settings and be boosted for reasons beyond that of talent or actual track record, I can only think that some years in Missoula or Spokane would have done them a ton of good or pushed them towards another line of work, before they were put into positions where they were under qualified and over confident. He was very insulated from criticism he should have gotten a decade ago.

 

[yeoldeschool]

There are many music formatted stations that have found that non-Boomer listeners really don't want and need people talking over song intros any more. We get our time and temperature and news updates on our phones, and can find all the news about artists we like there, too, and faster than that information gets to a local DJ.

I think another factor is that jocks once kept lonely, under-stimulated people company. Picture someone working a lonely 9-to-5 with the radio turned on, or listening during a long, solitary road trip. Today, with everybody incessantly wired into social media by their dinging, ringing, pinging smart phones, it's easy to imagine that a lot of contemporary music listening happens as an exercise in seeking solitude and relief from constant social contact -- and that intrusions into that "decompressive experience" by jocks bearing endless gifts of unsolicited infotainment only push people back toward a feeling of over-stimulation.

One exception to this might be DJs who limit themselves to enhancing people's interest in the actual music being played. In other words, confine all remarks to commentary on the natures of the songs themselves, on their histories, or trivia about their origins, or about their creators' stories -- or even simple mentions of "how this made me feel when I first heard it." Topical musings like these might come across as welcome enhancements to the musical experience itself, especially if most instances were kept brief and didn't get littered atop every cut being played.

 

[yeoldeschool]

I agree with you, except that we don't know if they have talent. They're not allowed to use it in L.A. and (assuming they started in the business in the last 15 years) weren't allowed to develop it wherever they worked before. In the 80s and before, DJs worked in small markets with very few restrictions, got to stretch their wings and figure out what worked and what didn't. The next few steps from there were usually increasingly more restrictive---but they had learned how to say stuff that mattered in whatever window the PDs gave them.

This. The higher up the ownership size ladder you go, the more reliance there is on formula, given all the extra money at stake and the attendant fear of losing it to deviations from the tried and true. The problem, of course, is that the tried and true doesn't transcend generations. Only new things and ideas that don't remind listeners of their parents' youths -- which they're trying to set themselves apart from -- can attract new ears. But if new ideas never get found because of the environment you're describing, the whole medium slowly burns.

Corporate radio is coasting on the fumes of its laurels. All the things it's doing now were pioneered when many stations were free-wheeling cocaine buffets with naked women running through the hallways at 3 AM after sneaking their boyfriends' bands' test pressings through the backs to the DJs. Radio will never be that freeform again in this lawyer dominated world (and even if it were, zoomers wouldn't want to use it to invent any new popular culture when there's the internet for that). But if large owners were willing to at least, say, designate some of their stations in some of their markets as loss lead laboratory environments for still-young-and-crazy-at-heart gen-X'ers and millennials to try off-beat ideas at without fear of consequences for initial failures, then maybe radio could find a few new ways to breathe an extra decade or two into its lifespan?

Maybe I'm just pipedreaming...

 

[TheBigA]

Only new things and ideas that don't remind listeners of their parents' youths -- which they're trying to set themselves apart from -- can attract new ears. But if new ideas never get found because of the environment you're describing, the whole medium slowly burns.

What new ideas are there on Spotify?

 

[TheBigA]

Radio will never be that freeform again in this lawyer dominated world

People don't need radio to discover music. Record labels don't sell physical product anymore. They primarily make money from digital airplay. Radio doesn't pay label or artist royalties for broadcast. So the entire symbiotic system was destroyed a very long time ago. You're blaming radio when it's a whole lot bigger than radio.