Bay Area radio sucks

[sfradio]

There is no specialty weekends at all, only live 105 and KMEL are doing something, but that is too boring. Where is the 80's or 90's weekend or a party songs weekend on KOIT or Star 101.3? That is why the ratings are so low for bay area radio, the highest rated station is at 5 while in other markets the highest rated station is 8 or higher. OK rant over

 

[beachguy3b]

Drive across the country. It sucks everywhere.

 

[SFStatic]

Both KOIT and Star have over 1,000,000 cume listeners. Not exactly chopped liver for ratings...

 

[evalmaster]

Arent ratings based on share? I would think this means that there is a broad range of stations in the Bay Area and the listeners are spread more evenly amongst them. There is no dominant station in the area running away with market share but that in itself doesnt mean the area stations suck. In a smaller market with way fewer stations it is a lot easier to pull that double digit share.

 

[LKellerIII]

Arent ratings based on share? I would think this means that there is a broad range of stations in the Bay Area and the listeners are spread more evenly amongst them. There is no dominant station in the area running away with market share but that in itself doesnt mean the area stations suck. In a smaller market with way fewer stations it is a lot easier to pull that double digit share.

Yes, and if you look at the top 3 markets, only New York's top station is pulling a higher 12+ rating (6.2 for a Clear Channel AC station) than the 5.4 rating shared by the KCBS "twins" and KGO. LA's top station is KIIS with a 4.9, and Chicago has a similar tie between an All News station and a News-Talk station with a 5.3. KGO used to pull 7s and 8s, but that's eroded over the last few years for all the reasons discussed here - more talk radio competition, their aging demographic, being AM only, etc.

With the economy in the dumper and no money for promotion, it's not surprising that stations have given up specialty weekends, contests, and other stunts.

As for KOIT - I don't recall that they ever did specialty programming of any kind in their long history, though I recall that they did contests from time to time. KOIT is designed to be boring...like McDonald's cheeseburgers...always the same thing year after decade, easy to digest, but always there when you want it.

 

[TVradioguru]

There is no specialty weekends at all, only live 105 and KMEL are doing something, but that is too boring. Where is the 80's or 90's weekend or a party songs weekend on KOIT or Star 101.3? That is why the ratings are so low for bay area radio, the highest rated station is at 5 while in other markets the highest rated station is 8 or higher. OK rant over

Ratings are so low? Do you have access to the ratings to make that banket statement, or is this just another comment based on your extensive (AKA circle-of-friend poll) research?

Have you even bothered to send an educated, thoughtful E-mail to a station PD that comes close to your personal tastes in radio? My guess is no to any of the above. They may actually surprise you with a reasonable response in return!

The point is that rather than taking the time to actually do something that may make a difference, you choose the lazy path and throw out some vague rant under the assumption that everyone has the same listening taste as you, but in fact a post like yours may be merely to satisfy your ego by drawing out the handful of cynical parrots who reside on this little forum.

My advice..go buy an MP3 player.

 

[SFStatic]

People have traditionally looked at share in diary based ratings. This is changing with the PPM. Share now includes web streams, HD-2, and more which the diary didn't count. According to Arbitron, this makes share less and less important in PPM markets, as it is diluted by these other competing sources. Daily and monthly cume (which in most cases is showing up as larger than measured by diaries) is becoming the important measure. This is requiring some retraining of both broadcasters and agencies that have primarily looked to share.

 

[Dick Skinner]

Arent ratings based on share? I would think this means that there is a broad range of stations in the Bay Area and the listeners are spread more evenly amongst them. There is no dominant station in the area running away with market share but that in itself doesnt mean the area stations suck. In a smaller market with way fewer stations it is a lot easier to pull that double digit share.

Yes, and if you look at the top 3 markets, only New York's top station is pulling a higher 12+ rating (6.2 for a Clear Channel AC station) than the 5.4 rating shared by the KCBS "twins" and KGO. LA's top station is KIIS with a 4.9, and Chicago has a similar tie between an All News station and a News-Talk station with a 5.3. KGO used to pull 7s and 8s, but that's eroded over the last few years for all the reasons discussed here - more talk radio competition, their aging demographic, being AM only, etc.

With the economy in the dumper and no money for promotion, it's not surprising that stations have given up specialty weekends, contests, and other stunts.

As for KOIT - I don't recall that they ever did specialty programming of any kind in their long history, though I recall that they did contests from time to time. KOIT is designed to be boring...like McDonald's cheeseburgers...always the same thing year after decade, easy to digest, but always there when you want it.

Actually, LKeller, ratings are based on market population and share is based on total listeners in the market using the medium in a given quarter hour. They're two different measurements. The numbers you quoted for New York, San Francisco and L.A. are shares, not ratings.

Call me a nitpicker, but since this is a radio forum, you may want to read up on industry terminology before posting.

 

[raydioheadfm]

Daily and monthly cume (which in most cases is showing up as larger than measured by diaries) is becoming the important measure.

First off, bravo to Dick Skinner. Great post. "Shares" generally are viewed by programmers as their report card. "Ratings" are what the sales folks use to develop their CPMs for advertisers. Thanks for providing some clarity and hopefully a little knowledge take away for many of the folks who are not in our business who read and post here.

I also, believe, SFStatic, you're mistaken. In the year or so I've been working in PPM markets, I've yet to run into anyone from the ad world (station side or client side) who thinks cume is now the gold standard. The larger cumes are truly impressive. But, the fact is, while cumes have dramatically increased, the vast majority of the increase are from people who are extremely light (P3 and lower) listeners who contribute very little to the share of the station. While cume truly shows the "circulation" of a station, it's not a very good indication of how many people might actually hear your ad. That's what the advertiser is interested in. The age old adage rings true and at a recent ARB PPM seminar, they even acknowledged it: in round numbers, 25% of your listeners give you 75% of your ratings (share/rating, not cume) This is one reason just a few PPM devices can truly change a stations' performance. I also know of no programming types (again that I personally know of) who are compensated on increasing the cume of the station. It's all based on SHARE or SHARE RANK in specific target demos based on the station. (That is of course, if you are lucky enough to receive some kind of comp based on ratings at all....whether air talent or programmer).

Dick Skinner, I'd love to hear your thoughts...

 

[SFStatic]

Appreaciate that raydiohead, but where I was, we had several seminars from ARB, and the corporate suits were pushing cume. Note that weekly cume is a wonderful, big number, but virtually worthless...much like 12+ General Manager brag numbers. The daily cume is what the monthly cume is taken from, and that is what will become important. Right now, the agencies either don't get this or don't want to, but as share drops off for reasons I noted above, they will have to pay more attention to the cumes in order to have numbers to buy from that aren't meaningless.

 

[DyingMedium]

ClearChannel has pushed lots of ideas in the past 10 years..."less is more" (NOT), HD radio (stillborn). "Retraining" is another great CC strategy. "Hey, we're changing the rules...so, it's cume now...cuz we say so".

With that kind of thinking, it's no wonder CC continues to have massive debt problems and revenue problems.

Guru...e-mailing a PD is like peeing on a forest fire.

"They may actually surprise you with a reasonable response in return!" Uh, no...they won't. And if they do, it's usually because they have nothing else to do and the station is already in the ratings crapper.

The OP's statements crossed several formats...Plus, they are legitimate programming concerns. Weekend programming - especially in music formats - can and has helped built long term station loyalty.

...I think I hear the Seattle Board calling you! Why don't you go rain up there?

--Cynical Parrot (think I'll change my username!)

 

[Dick Skinner]

Daily and monthly cume (which in most cases is showing up as larger than measured by diaries) is becoming the important measure.

First off, bravo to Dick Skinner. Great post. "Shares" generally are viewed by programmers as their report card. "Ratings" are what the sales folks use to develop their CPMs for advertisers. Thanks for providing some clarity and hopefully a little knowledge take away for many of the folks who are not in our business who read and post here.

I also, believe, SFStatic, you're mistaken. In the year or so I've been working in PPM markets, I've yet to run into anyone from the ad world (station side or client side) who thinks cume is now the gold standard. The larger cumes are truly impressive. But, the fact is, while cumes have dramatically increased, the vast majority of the increase are from people who are extremely light (P3 and lower) listeners who contribute very little to the share of the station. While cume truly shows the "circulation" of a station, it's not a very good indication of how many people might actually hear your ad. That's what the advertiser is interested in. The age old adage rings true and at a recent ARB PPM seminar, they even acknowledged it: in round numbers, 25% of your listeners give you 75% of your ratings (share/rating, not cume) This is one reason just a few PPM devices can truly change a stations' performance. I also know of no programming types (again that I personally know of) who are compensated on increasing the cume of the station. It's all based on SHARE or SHARE RANK in specific target demos based on the station. (That is of course, if you are lucky enough to receive some kind of comp based on ratings at all....whether air talent or programmer).

Dick Skinner, I'd love to hear your thoughts...

I agree, Raydiohead. I've never been bonused on cume...only on ranking of share in specific demos which are calculated off of AQH. In my opinion, AQH is coin of the realm.

 

[TVradioguru]

--Cynical Parrot (think I'll change my username!

If you like that one, I've got some others that would fit your attitude also!

 

[Starbucks]

There is no specialty weekends at all, only live 105 and KMEL are doing something, but that is too boring. Where is the 80's or 90's weekend or a party songs weekend on KOIT or Star 101.3? That is why the ratings are so low for bay area radio, the highest rated station is at 5 while in other markets the highest rated station is 8 or higher. OK rant over

Re: Bay Area radio sucks (real creativity). Don't you have anything else better to do or write. We know it sucks, but go somewhere else find an ipod or internet or something and listen. Your on the Internet anyway, when you composed the heading of this thread. you could've listen to Shoutcast, or Pandora while surfing.
That sucks, this sucks, that sucks, god...I feel like I'm reading kindergarten post.

 

[Questor]

Drive across the country. It sucks everywhere.

Does driving from my desktop or laptop count?

I actually stream several stations from other states (e.g., Mix 100 in Lubbock, TX) and 102.1 Chico Oldies closer to home. I find their song selections vastly superior to what's out here in the Bay Area.

In fact, when I have out-of-town visitors, they tell me that's one of the things they notice first about the Bay Area is how poor the radio selection of music is. It's funny because one of my other lives is as a musician, and the people who tell me this most don't play any instruments. They also see/hear that most of the time at home I've got talk stations on because they're far more entertaining.

So I think other parts of the country are actually sounding better than we are. It's so ironic to me, being in California and so close to Silicon Valley / San Francisco where we like to take this pride of being the starting point of everything. If we are, I hope the dullness we have here musically doesn't spread nationwide.

 

[LKellerIII]

Drive across the country. It sucks everywhere.

Does driving from my desktop or laptop count?

I actually stream several stations from other states (e.g., Mix 100 in Lubbock, TX) and 102.1 Chico Oldies closer to home. I find their song selections vastly superior to what's out here in the Bay Area.

In fact, when I have out-of-town visitors, they tell me that's one of the things they notice first about the Bay Area is how poor the radio selection of music is. It's funny because one of my other lives is as a musician, and the people who tell me this most don't play any instruments. They also see/hear that most of the time at home I've got talk stations on because they're far more entertaining.

So I think other parts of the country are actually sounding better than we are. It's so ironic to me, being in California and so close to Silicon Valley / San Francisco where we like to take this pride of being the starting point of everything. If we are, I hope the dullness we have here musically doesn't spread nationwide.

This makes sense when you think about it. I spend some time in the north state, and have also found the music selection to be "superior" in many cases, even though the presentation (liners, jocks, etc.) can be amateurish. But obviously, these are not big market stations. If you're the only classic hits, AC, or whatever format station for 5 counties in all 4 directions, you don't have to worry if your play list isn't filled with only the most desirable (heavily researched) songs.

I've heard some great classic rock and oldies songs on Redding stations - songs I haven't heard in years. But the thrill is mostly just the novelty of hearing them after so long. If I lived there 12 months a year and had to listen to those songs ad nauseum, they probably become "the same tired Oldies" after awhile.

 

[Michael Rivers Kramer]

Drive across the country. It sucks everywhere.

Does driving from my desktop or laptop count?

I actually stream several stations from other states (e.g., Mix 100 in Lubbock, TX) and 102.1 Chico Oldies closer to home. I find their song selections vastly superior to what's out here in the Bay Area.

In fact, when I have out-of-town visitors, they tell me that's one of the things they notice first about the Bay Area is how poor the radio selection of music is. It's funny because one of my other lives is as a musician, and the people who tell me this most don't play any instruments. They also see/hear that most of the time at home I've got talk stations on because they're far more entertaining.

So I think other parts of the country are actually sounding better than we are. It's so ironic to me, being in California and so close to Silicon Valley / San Francisco where we like to take this pride of being the starting point of everything. If we are, I hope the dullness we have here musically doesn't spread nationwide.

This makes sense when you think about it. I spend some time in the north state, and have also found the music selection to be "superior" in many cases, even though the presentation (liners, jocks, etc.) can be amateurish. But obviously, these are not big market stations. If you're the only classic hits, AC, or whatever format station for 5 counties in all 4 directions, you don't have to worry if your play list isn't filled with only the most desirable (heavily researched) songs.

I've heard some great classic rock and oldies songs on Redding stations - songs I haven't heard in years. But the thrill is mostly just the novelty of hearing them after so long. If I lived there 12 months a year and had to listen to those songs ad nauseum, they probably become "the same tired Oldies" after awhile.

What you experienced was an OH WOW event. When you here those same low testing songs again and again...the oh wow becomes OH...NO.

Everytime lower testing songs are removed from playlist the average listener perceives a better variety. One creative way to play OH WOW songs and NOT turn them into OH NO songs is to present a feature with a large category of OH WOW songs.

Even if the particular Redding station were transplanted with a slick presentation, it would probably get creamed by the local "researched" offerings.

What many people who are on this board don't realize is that fi you listen to a lot if radio, you will get board easily. The average radio listener doesn't listen as much as the people on the air or the super radio fans that read this board and keep up with the industry.

I for one and a radio junkie, but that has faded Now I listen to my I-tunes collection and NPR programming online more often.