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Bedroom Markets - can they support stns?

L

LITTLEBOYBLUE

Wondering if anyone has thoughts about the ability for markets such as Tacoma, Everett, Bremerton to support a station?

There were days when KBRO ruled Bremerton, RKO ruled Everett, KTAC ruled Tacoma, etc. -- and those were cases when they were as close to the Seattle market as those cities still are today. Since then, every operator seems to insist the only way to make a go of things is to move into the larger city and operate from there and blow away the smaller-city association (KNBQ, KRPM, KTAC, KBRD, KBRO-FM, KTNT, KKMO just a few that gave up on Tacoma or Bremerton to focus on Seattle revenue pie -- also KCPQ, KSTW TV). Even SteveW had his challenges attempting South-Sound focused KHHO with a focus on Tacoma news and business; yet Olympia, Aberdeen, etc. seem to continue to operate their local stations pretty well.

I'm wondering why, in this fairly large metropolitan areas with many businesses, etc. (Tacoma still has 100K's of people), can't a "regional" station keep its legs AS a regional operator? Is it as simple as too much product competition from Seattle stations that completely undermines the ability for a regional station to succeed?

With KXOT there's an interesting opportunity on the table for another Tacoma-focused station. Or, we could just wait and see if the new "Covington" station will expand their horizons enough to embrace Pierce County!!!?
 
> Wondering if anyone has thoughts about the ability for
> markets such as Tacoma, Everett, Bremerton to support a
> station?

Support, maybe. Make a ton of cash - I'd say no.

The market is Seattle/Tacoma/Everett, one conglomeration, not three separate cities. We have regional stations already (KFNK in Eatonville, KLAY in Lakewood for example) that do OK, but will never make the $$$ the big-market sticks do.
 
> The market is Seattle/Tacoma/Everett, one conglomeration,
> not three separate cities. We have regional stations
> already (KFNK in Eatonville, KLAY in Lakewood for example)
> that do OK, but will never make the $$$ the big-market sticks do.

With all due respect, I was trying not to ask the question like a radio guy and more like a "Chamber of Commerce" guy. My point being that a city like Everett or Tacoma or whatever has a ton of advertisers and can support its own newspaper. Why does that model always seem to fail when extended to radio? Clearly there are people who want to promote community news and businesses in Lakewood want to sell to Lakewood ... not STANWOOD. Where I'm confused is why the economic model seems to fall apart every time someone tries that? I was thinking out-loud that maybe the difference is Seattle signals boom into those markets and the programming is more polished and attractive than the local offerings can be.

If THAT is the case, then we should all start shutting our yaps about "radio will win because it's local" and maybe get a little more Sirius about our other competitors?
 
> With all due respect, I was trying not to ask the question
> like a radio guy and more like a "Chamber of Commerce" guy.
> My point being that a city like Everett or Tacoma or
> whatever has a ton of advertisers and can support its own
> newspaper. Why does that model always seem to fail when
> extended to radio? Clearly there are people who want to
> promote community news and businesses in Lakewood want to
> sell to Lakewood ... not STANWOOD. Where I'm confused is
> why the economic model seems to fall apart every time
> someone tries that?

I can't speak in generalities, but around here nowadays places like Lakewood and Stanwood are becoming home to those who are priced out of King County (The proof? The ridiculously long commutes we've seen this week when a little rain falls). They may grab a local rag to catch up on town events - but their radios and TVs will be locked on the big market stations.

That's why I said "support - maybe" - if you're smart like Clay Huntington, you CAN make a go of it in a smaller town). Last I checked, though, most owners aren't like him.
 
> > With all due respect, I was trying not to ask the question
>
> > like a radio guy and more like a "Chamber of Commerce"
> guy.
> > My point being that a city like Everett or Tacoma or
> > whatever has a ton of advertisers and can support its own
> > newspaper. Why does that model always seem to fail when
> > extended to radio? Clearly there are people who want to
> > promote community news and businesses in Lakewood want to
> > sell to Lakewood ... not STANWOOD. Where I'm confused is
> > why the economic model seems to fall apart every time
> > someone tries that?
>
> I can't speak in generalities, but around here nowadays
> places like Lakewood and Stanwood are becoming home to those
> who are priced out of King County (The proof? The
> ridiculously long commutes we've seen this week when a
> little rain falls). They may grab a local rag to catch up
> on town events - but their radios and TVs will be locked on
> the big market stations.
>
> That's why I said "support - maybe" - if you're smart like
> Clay Huntington, you CAN make a go of it in a smaller town).
> Last I checked, though, most owners aren't like him.
>
Unfortunately, it's mostly about signal. There's no way for a radio listener to know the difference between a "Bremerton" license and a "Tacoma" license. In the good ol' AM days, we had to depend on local signals, especially after sunset.
 
> > > With all due respect, I was trying not to ask the
> question
> >
> > > like a radio guy and more like a "Chamber of Commerce"
> > guy.

Pierce county pop 744,000 (2000).
Median home price $211,000 (Jan.'05 multiple listing service).
Compare that to Seattle $329,000.

Tacoma population 194K
Lakewood 58K
Puyallup 47K

1180 KLAY is now live streaming:

http://www.klay1180.com/

> > I can't speak in generalities, but around here nowadays
> > places like Lakewood and Stanwood are becoming home to
> those
> > who are priced out of King County (The proof? The
> > ridiculously long commutes we've seen this week when a
> > little rain falls). They may grab a local rag to catch up
>
> > on town events - but their radios and TVs will be locked
> on
> > the big market stations.

Nulls in nightime patterns of some of the big guys on Vashon/Maury and class B stations like KCIS/KKNW/KIXI don't reach some rural areas in several counties of the survey area at night (farmland/timber going to homes/apartments).

> > That's why I said "support - maybe" - if you're smart like
>
> > Clay Huntington, you CAN make a go of it in a smaller
> town).
> > Last I checked, though, most owners aren't like him.

KLAY pioneered DAYNET (Colmes,Farber,Dr. Joy Browne) and RUSH here, or did Jennings/KING go first with Rush weekends ... I don't remember.

> Unfortunately, it's mostly about signal. There's no way for
> a radio listener to know the difference between a
> "Bremerton" license and a "Tacoma" license. In the good ol'
> AM days, we had to depend on local signals, especially after
> sunset.
 
> Wondering if anyone has thoughts about the ability for
> markets such as Tacoma, Everett, Bremerton to support a
> station?
>
> There were days when KBRO ruled Bremerton, RKO ruled
> Everett, KTAC ruled Tacoma, etc. -- and those were cases
> when they were as close to the Seattle market as those
> cities still are today. Since then, every operator seems to
> insist the only way to make a go of things is to move into
> the larger city and operate from there and blow away the
> smaller-city association (KNBQ, KRPM, KTAC, KBRD, KBRO-FM,
> KTNT, KKMO just a few that gave up on Tacoma or Bremerton to
> focus on Seattle revenue pie -- also KCPQ, KSTW TV). Even
> SteveW had his challenges attempting South-Sound focused
> KHHO with a focus on Tacoma news and business; yet Olympia,
> Aberdeen, etc. seem to continue to operate their local
> stations pretty well.
>
> I'm wondering why, in this fairly large metropolitan areas
> with many businesses, etc. (Tacoma still has 100K's of
> people), can't a "regional" station keep its legs AS a
> regional operator? Is it as simple as too much product
> competition from Seattle stations that completely undermines
> the ability for a regional station to succeed?
>
> With KXOT there's an interesting opportunity on the table
> for another Tacoma-focused station. Or, we could just wait
> and see if the new "Covington" station will expand their
> horizons enough to embrace Pierce County!!!?
>
The days when those stations ruled those markets was when there were far fewer popular FMs that reached those communities at night. After sunset the Seattle stations didn't penetrate those areas so local listeners choices became more limited. Now a local station can survive if the local owner works his tail off, has a small staff and is personally involved. He'll never get rich but can make a decent living and then make his real money when he sells it to a big group who takes it foreign language or religious. The point about the cost of living and commutes is valid. Populations in smaller communities may live in that area but they're working outside of it. Look at the erosion of the local papers. The Herald, TNT and Skagit Valley Herald aren't setting any new sales or subscription records. Also back when KRKO, KKMO & KTNT ruled, the radio ratings of the top stations were 15 shares, 18 shares, 20 shares. Now a top rating is 5 or 6 shares. The times have changed...
 
Re: Times Changing

As I understand, even as far back as the 60s, the original KISN served the Great Oregon Territory from Vancouver (Washington).<P ID="signature">______________
Jason97... regularly contributing on the <a target="_blank" href=http://www.radio-info.com/mods/posts?Board=oregon>Oregon</a> Board.</P>
 
As is most often the case, follow the money.

The Market is Seattle-Tacoma. Arbitron does the survey and sends out the numbers. The Rep Firms and agencies place the national/regional buys. Unless somone is going over and above, they buy based on ratings, not reach in a specific area. There are exceptions, but having worked for stations at the top and the bottom, I can tell you the guy who serves a local community well, is not going to get the national/regional buys if that community is considered to be part of a larger market.

From a local stand point, you can sell your commericals to the local businesses for $35 or work on getting into the larger market and sell them for $135 (or more).

With the ammount of money it takes to buy and run a station, you have to find a way to maximize your income and if you can reposition yourself as a bigger market station, the upside potential is huge.





> Wondering if anyone has thoughts about the ability for
> markets such as Tacoma, Everett, Bremerton to support a
> station?
>
> There were days when KBRO ruled Bremerton, RKO ruled
> Everett, KTAC ruled Tacoma, etc. -- and those were cases
> when they were as close to the Seattle market as those
> cities still are today. Since then, every operator seems to
> insist the only way to make a go of things is to move into
> the larger city and operate from there and blow away the
> smaller-city association (KNBQ, KRPM, KTAC, KBRD, KBRO-FM,
> KTNT, KKMO just a few that gave up on Tacoma or Bremerton to
> focus on Seattle revenue pie -- also KCPQ, KSTW TV). Even
> SteveW had his challenges attempting South-Sound focused
> KHHO with a focus on Tacoma news and business; yet Olympia,
> Aberdeen, etc. seem to continue to operate their local
> stations pretty well.
>
> I'm wondering why, in this fairly large metropolitan areas
> with many businesses, etc. (Tacoma still has 100K's of
> people), can't a "regional" station keep its legs AS a
> regional operator? Is it as simple as too much product
> competition from Seattle stations that completely undermines
> the ability for a regional station to succeed?
>
> With KXOT there's an interesting opportunity on the table
> for another Tacoma-focused station. Or, we could just wait
> and see if the new "Covington" station will expand their
> horizons enough to embrace Pierce County!!!?
>
 
Re: Bedroom Markets - can they support stns - Depends on the market!

> As is most often the case, follow the money.
>
> The Market is Seattle-Tacoma. Arbitron does the survey and
> sends out the numbers. The Rep Firms and agencies place the
> national/regional buys. Unless somone is going over and
> above, they buy based on ratings, not reach in a specific
> area. There are exceptions, but having worked for stations
> at the top and the bottom, I can tell you the guy who serves
> a local community well, is not going to get the
> national/regional buys if that community is considered to be
> part of a larger market.
>
> From a local stand point, you can sell your commericals to
> the local businesses for $35 or work on getting into the
> larger market and sell them for $135 (or more).
>
> With the ammount of money it takes to buy and run a station,
> you have to find a way to maximize your income and if you
> can reposition yourself as a bigger market station, the
> upside potential is huge.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Wondering if anyone has thoughts about the ability for
> > markets such as Tacoma, Everett, Bremerton to support a
> > station?
> >
> > There were days when KBRO ruled Bremerton, RKO ruled
> > Everett, KTAC ruled Tacoma, etc. -- and those were cases
> > when they were as close to the Seattle market as those
> > cities still are today. Since then, every operator seems
> to
> > insist the only way to make a go of things is to move into
>
> > the larger city and operate from there and blow away the
> > smaller-city association (KNBQ, KRPM, KTAC, KBRD, KBRO-FM,
>
> > KTNT, KKMO just a few that gave up on Tacoma or Bremerton
> to
> > focus on Seattle revenue pie -- also KCPQ, KSTW TV). Even
>
> > SteveW had his challenges attempting South-Sound focused
> > KHHO with a focus on Tacoma news and business; yet
> Olympia,
> > Aberdeen, etc. seem to continue to operate their local
> > stations pretty well.
> >
> > I'm wondering why, in this fairly large metropolitan areas
>
> > with many businesses, etc. (Tacoma still has 100K's of
> > people), can't a "regional" station keep its legs AS a
> > regional operator? Is it as simple as too much product
> > competition from Seattle stations that completely
> undermines
> > the ability for a regional station to succeed?
> >
> > With KXOT there's an interesting opportunity on the table
> > for another Tacoma-focused station. Or, we could just
> wait
> > and see if the new "Covington" station will expand their
> > horizons enough to embrace Pierce County!!!?
> >
> I think that back east, you will find more local radio stations that do fairly well. For example, most stations in the major population centers are Class "B"s whose signals don't reach out that far. Most people commute into the city and live outside the usable range of those stations (e.g., NY City has suburban markets in COnnecticut, Long Island and New Jersey, --- Philadelphia has markets in Northern PA and Central Jersey etc.So there are secondary markets already established

In most Class "C" markets, the FCC granted some allocations to outlying areas
e.g., Kansas City has class "C" allocations in Leavenworth, Ottawa KS; Lexington, MO and Harrisonville Mo. These owners were able to move their stations to 100,000 blow-torches with large (HAAT) antennas and were able to cover both primary and secondary markets. So it defeated the FCC's initial attempt to allow these smaller towns to have their "own" stations.
Seattle had allocations in Tacoma, Bellevue, Bremerton and the same thing happened here.

Tom S

<P ID="signature">______________
Tom S</P>
 
> That's why I said "support - maybe" - if you're smart like
> Clay Huntington, you CAN make a go of it in a smaller town).
> Last I checked, though, most owners aren't like him.

Like him in what regard - running brokered programming in PMD?
 
> Wondering if anyone has thoughts about the ability for
> markets such as Tacoma, Everett, Bremerton to support a
> station?
>
Won't happen except in the south sound area of Thurston, Mason and Lewis counties. Actually it's already happening there. The area between the Nisqually and Centralia/Chehalis (including Olympia/Lacey) will become a distinct, seperate radio shadow market much like Long Island is to NYC or Riverside/San Bernardino is to the L.A. market. Some have already staked their claim south of Olympia.

Tacoma and Everett have there stations too. Funky Monkey is a serious Rock competitor in Tacoma/Olympia. KRKO has established themselves as an alternative for the Everett/Snohomish commuter on the AM dial.

The growth for radio in Western Washington is south of Fort Lewis.
 
Back in the 1960's bedroom markets did indeed support their stations, my dad worked at KFKF and they focused on Bellevue, Kirkland, Redmond and the Eastside of Lake Washington and did fine.

Besides KFKF at 1330(eventually moving to 1540 when KBVU gave up the ghost) and 92.5FM as of 1964.

Also in Bellevue 1540/KBVU

There was Everett's 1230/KWYZ and 1380/KRKO

Auburn's 1220/KASY

Kirkland's 1460/KYAC

Mountlake Terrace's 1510/KURB

Bremerton's 1490/KBRO

Puyallup's 1450/KAYE, etc.

Tacoma's 850/KTAC and 1360/KMO and 1400/KTNT

Most of those are still around in one form or another, but with the exception of KRKO, none really serve their community.


I believe that if Everett had it's own commercial FM Frequency and concentrated on Snohomish and Skagit Counties it could do just fine---you'd figure there would be some way to squeeze in at least a Class A there.....Same with Mt. Vernon, Shelton, Bremerton, Port Angeles.

Since most people love listening to their music on FM, it's a real dis-service not to have an FM licensed to those particular cities.........

I think it would be fun to see at least class-A Fm stations around western Washington and see what would happen.....there's my 2-cents.......

<P ID="signature">______________
Your Spokane & Seattle Radio Pal..and Seattle Moderator...

J.J. Hemingway</P>
 
> Wondering if anyone has thoughts about the ability for
> markets such as Tacoma, Everett, Bremerton to support a
> station?
>
> There were days when KBRO ruled Bremerton, RKO ruled
> Everett, KTAC ruled Tacoma, etc. -- and those were cases
> when they were as close to the Seattle market as those
> cities still are today. Since then, every operator seems to
> insist the only way to make a go of things is to move into
> the larger city and operate from there and blow away the
> smaller-city association (KNBQ, KRPM, KTAC, KBRD, KBRO-FM,
> KTNT, KKMO just a few that gave up on Tacoma or Bremerton to
> focus on Seattle revenue pie -- also KCPQ, KSTW TV). Even
> SteveW had his challenges attempting South-Sound focused
> KHHO with a focus on Tacoma news and business; yet Olympia,
> Aberdeen, etc. seem to continue to operate their local
> stations pretty well.
>
> I'm wondering why, in this fairly large metropolitan areas
> with many businesses, etc. (Tacoma still has 100K's of
> people), can't a "regional" station keep its legs AS a
> regional operator? Is it as simple as too much product
> competition from Seattle stations that completely undermines
> the ability for a regional station to succeed?
>
> With KXOT there's an interesting opportunity on the table
> for another Tacoma-focused station. Or, we could just wait
> and see if the new "Covington" station will expand their
> horizons enough to embrace Pierce County!!!?


In my opinion I think its totally possible. I can think of two great examples, AC Mixx 96.1 KXXO in Olympia; and Sports AM 1380 KRKO in Everett.

KRKO has been around forever as the "voice" of Snohomish County with more local traffic and news for the nothside and a good-on-the streets presence around the area and yet still maintains its place in the Seattle area. And being a former KRKO staffer (my first station to be exact) I do know that the Everett area advertisers that buy KRKO time are loyal and I also know that anytime Jeff Aaron "The Fish" does his afternoon show on location you can bet the place being packed wall to wall!

As for Olympia's KXXO 96.1, I'll tell ya when I come back home from Spokane regularly and I dont feel like listening to KUBE or rock, my radio is set to 96.1! Its a great mix of music, the airstaff is great, they give away good stuff very regularly, and you can hear them basically anywhere from the mountains to the coast....without the 9 minute stopsets I might add. The station began from the ground up and has been around for well over a decade with no format changes, very little talent turnover, and all with no help of a huge corporate ownership and they pretty much destroy KRWM's audience in Tacoma and south of that! In my opinion I think its a much better AC station than KRWM! KXXO does focus on the Olympia-Tacome area obviously but you will see them often in the Seattle area at concerts, fairs and other big events like that. Just look at their website mixx96.com, or better yet give them a listen and you'll know what Im talking about. A smaller station that I think does extremely well for itself and has for years!

So yes, long answer to a short question....as you can see, I think if you localize the station without completely excluding its presence from the rest of Puget Sound area neighboorhood that basically is one huge metropolis living together, a regional station can do well against it Seattle based counterparts.

Those are my thoughts

-WOJ
 
> I believe that if Everett had it's own commercial FM
> Frequency and concentrated on Snohomish and Skagit Counties
> it could do just fine---you'd figure there would be some way
> to squeeze in at least a Class A there.....Same with Mt.
> Vernon, Shelton, Bremerton, Port Angeles.
>
> Since most people love listening to their music on FM, it's
> a real dis-service not to have an FM licensed to those
> particular cities.........

KRXY 233A Shelton
KRWM 295C1 Bremerton (yes, it functions as a Seattle signal now, I know)
KMWS 211A Mount Venon, CP on 209A
KSVR 219A Mount Vernon
KVIX 207A Port Angeles (retransmitting KPLU)
KNWP 211A Port Angeles (retransmitting WSU's NPR)

I realize that the latter four are all non-comms, but KSVR is at least locally programmed. Plus, there is a vacant Class A allotment at Port Angeles, Channel 229A, just assigned last month. Given the FCC backlog, it will be a while before it comes up for auction, probably at least a couple years. And whoever gets it will have to deal with a co-channel interfering signal coming in from Vancouver, but given the proximity to Seattle-Bellingham-Victoria-Vancouver that's what it takes to squeeze in a Class A at PA.
 
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