Best and worst signals

[cyberdad]

If we're talking about local signals where each of us lives. Here in the Chicago area, it's clearly something of a tossup on AM between WSCR, WGN, and WBBM. All audible (if barely) daytime in Canada a little beyond Windsor (10-20 miles) on the 401 Freeway going towards Toronto.

For FM it's a little harder to say, since most of the full signal stations have fairly similar facilities, but I believe WFMT (98.7) has been grandfathered with a little more "oomph".

 

[radioman148]

If we're talking about local signals where each of us lives. Here in the Chicago area, it's clearly something of a tossup on AM between WSCR, WGN, and WBBM. All audible (if barely) daytime in Canada a little beyond Windsor (10-20 miles) on the 401 Freeway going towards Toronto.

For FM it's a little harder to say, since most of the full signal stations have fairly similar facilities, but I believe WFMT (98.7) has been grandfathered with a little more "oomph".

Pretty much the same where I live in the near north Chicago burbs. Only difference for me being the old WJJD transmitter in Des Plaines was actually the strongest at my location which wasn't too far from them. Although those towers are still there for WYLL's day facilities, the signal doesn't seem to be quite as strong as years ago.

 

[1L6E6VHF]

Lower Michigan has awful ground conductivity. It's so bad that most of the AMs I get in Manistee during the day are from Wisconsin. <snip>

Your part does, but lower Michigan's conductivity varies. Metro Detroit to the Ohio line is about average, the Thumb is actually excellent (but there are few local stations there to take advantage of it). SW , Central and NE Michigan is poor, and NW lower michigan - especially along and west of US 31 from US-10 to Leland, is just abysmal - supposedly a 2, but one can find engineering submitted in FCC apps that shows a 0.1! I had the same observations you did - Wisconsin stations across the lake are stronger on the shoreline than Traverse City and Cadillac stations.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Glen Clark says that Chicago conductivity is pretty close to M-3.

After looking at scores of Michigan AM applications online with measured conductivity data, I would say that the only places with good conductivity are along Lake Erie, the Detroit and St. Clair River, parts of the Thumb, near Saginaw Bay, and some loamy clay "islands" in low lying flat creek beds in Flint and Lapeer. They are the darker blue areas on this map link. Pink and violet areas are those 0.1-2 mS/m. From actual coverage driving many AM signals, and measuring some signals myself, the measured conductivities are very believable.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/1982_Quaternary_Geology_Map_301467_7.pdf

 

[ftballfan]

Lower Michigan has awful ground conductivity. It's so bad that most of the AMs I get in Manistee during the day are from Wisconsin. <snip>

Your part does, but lower Michigan's conductivity varies. Metro Detroit to the Ohio line is about average, the Thumb is actually excellent (but there are few local stations there to take advantage of it). SW , Central and NE Michigan is poor, and NW lower michigan - especially along and west of US 31 from US-10 to Leland, is just abysmal - supposedly a 2, but one can find engineering submitted in FCC apps that shows a 0.1! I had the same observations you did - Wisconsin stations across the lake are stronger on the shoreline than Traverse City and Cadillac stations.

The lack of AM stations within 60 miles (one in Ludington, one in Big Rapids, two in Cadillac, and four in Traverse City; seven total with three of them being graveyarders) also helps Wisconsin dominate AM.

 

[Signal]

On Martha's Vineyard

Best:

101.9 WCIB. Yes, I know I can SEE the tower across the water. Signal goes well into Connecticut.

Worst:

95.1 WXTK. The tower is twenty miles from us. You'd think that would mean a great signal. The signal is very choppy here, as in it suffers from multipath and general fading.
96.3 WEII. When it was WRZE many, many moons ago it had probably one of the best signals in all of the Cape Cod market, rivaled only by WCIB. Now it is a mere shell of its former self. Along the immediate coast the signal it's listenable, but go inland a mile and it is really choppy.
99.1 WPLM. This signal suffers from a lot of problems here on the Vineyard, but hop on the ferry to Woods Hole and the signal gets infinitely better.
101.1 WHYA. Choppy signal here, fades in and out.
104.7 WOCN. The waters around MV seem to have an effect on the signal of many stations. Along the coast it's a great signal, but inland it suffers the same fate as WEII.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Lower Michigan has awful ground conductivity. It's so bad that most of the AMs I get in Manistee during the day are from Wisconsin. <snip>

Your part does, but lower Michigan's conductivity varies. Metro Detroit to the Ohio line is about average, the Thumb is actually excellent (but there are few local stations there to take advantage of it). SW , Central and NE Michigan is poor, and NW lower michigan - especially along and west of US 31 from US-10 to Leland, is just abysmal - supposedly a 2, but one can find engineering submitted in FCC apps that shows a 0.1! I had the same observations you did - Wisconsin stations across the lake are stronger on the shoreline than Traverse City and Cadillac stations.

The lack of AM stations within 60 miles (one in Ludington, one in Big Rapids, two in Cadillac, and four in Traverse City; seven total with three of them being graveyarders) also helps Wisconsin dominate AM.

The AM situation is not much different than it was 40-50 years ago. Yes, WTCM is 50000 watts on 580, WCCW is 15000 watts, and WTMJ is 50000 watts blasting over the lake, but the situation is still much the same. I remember listening to WDOR 910 and WDBC 680 near Frankfort in 1967. I remember others listening to other stations further south but in WI. WOKY 920 was big in Grand Haven. FM took over early because of this. WTCM-FM, WWTV-FM, WGRD-FM, WZZM-FM, WJFM, and WOOD-FM were big in West MI.

 

[ftballfan]

Lower Michigan has awful ground conductivity. It's so bad that most of the AMs I get in Manistee during the day are from Wisconsin. <snip>

Your part does, but lower Michigan's conductivity varies. Metro Detroit to the Ohio line is about average, the Thumb is actually excellent (but there are few local stations there to take advantage of it). SW , Central and NE Michigan is poor, and NW lower michigan - especially along and west of US 31 from US-10 to Leland, is just abysmal - supposedly a 2, but one can find engineering submitted in FCC apps that shows a 0.1! I had the same observations you did - Wisconsin stations across the lake are stronger on the shoreline than Traverse City and Cadillac stations.

The lack of AM stations within 60 miles (one in Ludington, one in Big Rapids, two in Cadillac, and four in Traverse City; seven total with three of them being graveyarders) also helps Wisconsin dominate AM.

The AM situation is not much different than it was 40-50 years ago. Yes, WTCM is 50000 watts on 580, WCCW is 15000 watts, and WTMJ is 50000 watts blasting over the lake, but the situation is still much the same. I remember listening to WDOR 910 and WDBC 680 near Frankfort in 1967. I remember others listening to other stations further south but in WI. WOKY 920 was big in Grand Haven. FM took over early because of this. WTCM-FM, WWTV-FM, WGRD-FM, WZZM-FM, WJFM, and WOOD-FM were big in West MI.

It also helps that most of those FMs mentioned ran 100kW or more from decent height towers.

 

[WDAE-FM101]

Worst
WCBS-FM (101.1) WHTX (100.3) New York
Severely limited due to co-channels in Philadelphia
WCBS also loses out to 101.3 in Hamden Connecticut.

Speaking of co-channels, there are two 105.7s in Baltimore and York, PA and two 104.7s in Charlotte and Columbia

The York PA - Baltimore Co-channels are really close! Much closer than WCBS-WBEB

 

[Lawppy]

The York PA - Baltimore Co-channels are really close! Much closer than WCBS-WBEB

And if you think WJZ 105.7 enjoys better coverage to the southwest (as opposed to the extreme short-spacing from York to the north) you'd be wrong. Washington DC's WMAL 105.9 I-BLOC probably kills the WJZ signal within 30 miles of Baltimore.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

Regarding close co-channels, near me on 1390 there's KLTX in Long Beach with 5kW DA, and XEKT in Tecate with 5kW ND. At my house a couple miles south of El Cajon, XEKT is alone on the channel with a fairly decent signal at midday, although at night KLTX frequently sneaks in too.

On the other hand, at Pacific Beach near midday, using the $17 Sony SRF-59's internal ~1.5-inch ferrite antenna...

Anyone else know of closer co-channel situations like that?

Also it'd be interesting to me if someone with maybe a good antenna (full-wave tuned beverage or dipole or loop or whatever - something at least 120-180dB more sensitive than a Superadio's ferrite) and radio (sensitive enough with *NO* antenna to get clear reception on a signal the GE Superadio III barely detects a carrier) could get similar simultaneous reception of a co-channel Canadian *AND* Mexican at midday, not just in winter. For example, how about XEWA and CBK on 540 in CO, western KS or western NE? Or maybe 800s XEROK and CKLW in Kansas City?

I second the nomination for Santa Barbara's 103.3 KVYB for best FM signal. Here's their TOH ID on my PL-606 laying on the ground, antenna stowed, in my backyard 212 miles away, and another clip on a ~950-foot hilltop 3/4mi NW of my house. BTW that's pretty much routine reception, at least on the hilltop.

Here's a clip of 1070 KNX on my PL-606 with SAT sitting on a chainlink fence, and on my barefoot PL-380, both in the early afternoon on separate days. KNX is 111 miles from me, and has a slightly better groundwave signal than 640 KFI, in spite of the latter being 12 miles closer at only 99 miles distant.
I notice that 1080 WTIC is in an area with relatively poor conductivity. How does groundwave reception of WTIC toward west to north directions compare, at a similar distance, to my clips of KNX?

Also somewhere (maybe this board) I recently saw a post or two referencing a GY station being obliterated at night just a couple miles from their tower. I don't have a recording readily available, but I'm 11.2 miles from 1240 KNSN, and it's practically alone on the channel at night (unless I rotate the radio to null them). This got me thinking... Anyone know of situations where a GY in a sparsely populated region with good ground conductivity (sorry, saltwater, no need to apply for this contest) has a rock-solid nighttime signal at a greater distance than another GY in a dense area with terrible conductivity can't even be detected at midday with CW, SSB, BFO, etc.?

Here's a recent vid of 1290 KZSB Santa Barbara's TOH ID on my GE Superadio III. KZSB, with all of 500 watts ND, is 195 miles NW of me. Not heard (unless you count the infrasonic het from the beating carrier) is co-channel KKDD San Bernardino, 95 miles N, blasts 6.5kW toward me.
Also, speaking of saltwater, here's 990 KTMS's 16.4 WATTS(!) ERP toward Pacific Beach 181 miles away.

Now for another comparison. At Cameron Corners, CA, Family Radio's 1kW 1280 KFRN from Long Beach actually has a better midday signal than 5kW semi-local 910 KECR from El Cajon. (Both clips are of the PL-380 with Select-A-Tenna. Barefoot, XEAO was alone on 910, but KFRN was copyable if somewhat weak on 1280.

Also speaking of ground conductivity variations... Is it possible that a high-band TIS or GY could have farther reach over saltwater than a low-band clear-channel over very poor ground (for example 0.01mS/m)? As for another scenario, I've seen posts from DavidEduardo mentioning stations that don't cover their entire city of license. Are there any locations where you have a geographically large city combined with terrible ground conductivity, so you could have TWO (or more) ND co-channel 50kW (or max power in that country if higher) stations (daytime) below 1100 kHz, such that they comply with class A separation (5 uV can't overlap 100 uV), and the protected contours are contained entirely within the city limits?

Is there any place where an AM and an FM in the same location could have best AND worst signals? For example, what about an AM GY or maybe TIS/HAR getting out farther than a class C FM, OR a low-band clear-channel AM fading into the atmospheric noise while an FM Class A, LPFM, translator or booster is still going strong?

And, one more... For those of you in the more crowded northeast quarter of the USA... is this your typical nighttime reception of a GY at 350 miles out? That's 1400 KTUC from Tuscon, AZ, I believe, being received in El Cajon, CA. I also get frequent reception of KKJL Santa Maria, also on 1400, at 250 miles. (The signal isn't always that good, however. Actually it had already started to fade before I got the camera - a few minutes earlier it was coming in as strong as some 50kW class A's usually blast in.)

 

[ftballfan]

I found two AMs on 1520 a grand total of 22 miles apart.

WINW Canton, OH - Daytimer, 1kW w/ 4 towers
WJMP Kent, OH - Daytimer, 1kW w/ 6 towers

 

[1L6E6VHF]

Lower Michigan has awful ground conductivity. It's so bad that most of the AMs I get in Manistee during the day are from Wisconsin. <snip>

Your part does, but lower Michigan's conductivity varies. Metro Detroit to the Ohio line is about average, the Thumb is actually excellent (but there are few local stations there to take advantage of it). SW , Central and NE Michigan is poor, and NW lower michigan - especially along and west of US 31 from US-10 to Leland, is just abysmal - supposedly a 2, but one can find engineering submitted in FCC apps that shows a 0.1! I had the same observations you did - Wisconsin stations across the lake are stronger on the shoreline than Traverse City and Cadillac stations.

The lack of AM stations within 60 miles (one in Ludington, one in Big Rapids, two in Cadillac, and four in Traverse City; seven total with three of them being graveyarders) also helps Wisconsin dominate AM.

The AM situation is not much different than it was 40-50 years ago. Yes, WTCM is 50000 watts on 580, WCCW is 15000 watts, and WTMJ is 50000 watts blasting over the lake, but the situation is still much the same. I remember listening to WDOR 910 and WDBC 680 near Frankfort in 1967. I remember others listening to other stations further south but in WI. WOKY 920 was big in Grand Haven. FM took over early because of this. WTCM-FM, WWTV-FM, WGRD-FM, WZZM-FM, WJFM, and WOOD-FM were big in West MI.

It also helps that most of those FMs mentioned ran 100kW or more from decent height towers.

Most of them omnidirectional, and no interference at night 97% of the time!

Really, to some parts of NW Michigan, like Honor, the radio age had basically been skipped until the late 1970's

 

[cyberdad]

I found two AMs on 1520 a grand total of 22 miles apart.

WINW Canton, OH - Daytimer, 1kW w/ 4 towers
WJMP Kent, OH - Daytimer, 1kW w/ 6 towers

This was discussed a couple of years back. IIRC, they do a decent enough job protecting one another. I get into Canton once or twice a year, but I've never had a chance to check this out for myself.

 

[LKidd]

One example you could look at is on 1540, comparing the stations in Albany, NY (50kw and poor conductivity) and McPherson, KS (250w with high conductivity sitting atop a large underground salt formation). The McPherson station is in theory non-directional but there is an oil refinery next to their transmitter site that nulls their signal somewhat to the northwest and boosts it in other directions. (it also operates with a 277' tower)

Another example I've seen maps of would be to compare 50kw KWKH in Shreveport on 1130 with both 250w DA co-channel KLEY in Wellington KS and 5kw KSAL in Salina at 1150.

 

[cyberdad]

One that comes to mind for me is the 10kw 660 in the Mobile, AL area with the 1kw 660 in Omaha. No contest!

 

[1L6E6VHF]

One example you could look at is on 1540, comparing the stations in Albany, NY (50kw and poor conductivity) and McPherson, KS (250w with high conductivity sitting atop a large underground salt formation). The McPherson station is in theory non-directional but there is an oil refinery next to their transmitter site that nulls their signal somewhat to the northwest and boosts it in other directions. (it also operates with a 277' tower)

Another example I've seen maps of would be to compare 50kw KWKH in Shreveport on 1130 with both 250w DA co-channel KLEY in Wellington KS and 5kw KSAL in Salina at 1150.

Awesome. I had never heard of KLEY before. It sure has a very large .5mV/m:2.5mV/m coverage ratio!

Actually, KWKH is far from the worst I've seen. WTAM 1100 Cleveland is a little worse (note the mileage scale is different), and possibly the biggest 50kW loser is WJNL (admittedly a little higher on the dial, at 1210, but that's not much).

 

[bobdavcav]

Getting back to WJZ-FM, I was able to recieve them weakly one night in College Park when I was back in that area a few years ago. I couldn't get what was then WVRX at all. What is now WNEW-FM has an impressive signal, heard a lot stronger in College Park than WIHT, which wasn't that bad of a signal, actually it was in full stereo city-grade signal, but 99.1 was stronger. I think the worst signal in DC would have to be WMZQ. I only picked them up once, and that was when I was in the best spot on campus I checked from. Granted that was the same spot I got WJZ-FM from, I would expect WJZ-FM to have a signal worse than WMZQ. WBIG's signal is also not great in that area. As for worst signals in my area, let's see if Crane would agree. KCMS, though it gets out well, is full of multipath within the metro area. Ironically, KPLZ, which transmits from the same antenna, has a very clean sound and is easily the best signal in the market. KUBE also transmits from that antenna, and does not have a great signal in the metro. I'm not sure how far out they get, I don't think it's as far as KCMS, even though KUBE is almost twice the power. Having never traveled around while listening to KUOW 94.9, I couldn't tell you much about their signal. I know it's worse than other Seattle fms in Everett. Their tower is located on Queen Anne Hill, not Cougar Mountain, which causes multipath issues. KPQ-FM has a great signal. I've heard them over the mountains here in Seattle, and as far east as just outside of Spokane.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

>Really, to some parts of NW Michigan, like Honor, the radio age had basically been skipped until the late 1970's

Our family used to vacation near Beulah in the 1960s, and although there weren't any really good local signals, you could hear WTCM 1400 and WCCW 1310 from Traverse City, and WDOR 910 and WDBC 680 from across the lake, on a decent portable. At night, you could hear many AM stations. We fully extended the antenna on the car and could get WJR 760 in the daytime. I remember when they said WCCW was 5000 watts on the air, I was surprised, because it wasn't that far away, and didn't come in that well. With a good tube radio and an large internal loop or longwire antenna, I'm sure you could have received all the Chicago 50 kW stations, WTMJ (then 5000 watts), WJR, and an assortment of other stations from WI and some of the other Class IVs from 50-60 miles away or so in the daytime. In the early morning critical hours, I heard WISN 1130 say they were now 50000 watts, the first I knew about it. But with the dial pointer being somewhat off and imprecise in that range on the transistor radio, I was thinking that they were still on 1150, and I already knew you couldn't have 50000 watts there. It was later that I found out they were on 1130.

Many areas of the country were in areas with weak AM signals from 1920 to the age of FM, but with good radios and antennas, you could get many stations.

 

[audioguy]

Maybe their groundwave signal is not the best, but WTAM has a huge skywave signal into west Michigan and the Chicago area after dark. They could sell advertising in the Windy City.